smokeless muzzleloader

[Bluejazz]

 Just found out about Savage's smokeless muzzleloader, and don't know to much about it.  I am looking for a 250-300yd muzzle loader for an elk hunt out west this fall. I was going to get a TC Pro Hunter, but want some opinions from those who shoot the Savage. Forgive the beginner question, but for right now just want to cut to the chase without spending hours doing a search and reading the posts. Is the smokeless Savage the way to go for a 250-300 yd range with a muzzleloader ?

[MrFurious]

Yep!  Ideal load would probably be the Barnes Original .458" 300gr bullet in an orange MMP sabot over a load of  N120.  One of the flattest shooting 300gr muzzleloader loads Randy has played with and one of his personal favorites.

http://www.randywakeman.com/ballltd53.htm
http://www.randywakeman.com/UpdateBarnesOriginalSpitzerSoft-Point300grain.htm

[minst7877]

Make sure you check the state regs where you will be going to be sure you could use smokeless powder.  Not all state will allow this during the muzleloader seasons.

DC

[Bluejazz]

Just curious, why would it matter whether you used smokeless or some other powder when setting regulations for muzzleloader hunting ? You still only get one shot, and by the nature of muzzleloaders, you range is somewhat limited.Someone explain this to me. Thanks

[esmd]

Just curious, why would it matter whether you used smokeless or some other powder when setting regulations for muzzleloader hunting ? You still only get one shot, and by the nature of muzzleloaders, you range is somewhat limited.Someone explain this to me. Thanks

Short answer is, you're preaching to the choir.  Unfortunately, some states Legislature's don't see it that way.

[RandyWakeman]

Just curious, why would it matter whether you used smokeless or some other powder when setting regulations for muzzleloader hunting ? You still only get one shot, and by the nature of muzzleloaders, you range is somewhat limited.Someone explain this to me. Thanks

It is a mystery to everybody. Triple Se7en is smokeless powder, as are a number of blackpowder subs. That's according to the DOT. And, of course, 125 years ago "smokeless powder" was made to be a black powder sub. A "3 dram" load, still printed on shotshell boxes today means 3 drams by weight of blackpowder. Of course, we all learned that blackpowder was the long way around the skeet field a long, long while ago.

This nonsense has been going on for a loooong while, but very few states are left that bother with it. Common sense tells most people that a pellet is a pellet, not a powder or "dust." Nevertheless, confusing the issue with common sense does not always work.

[Bluejazz]

Just a follow up report. I ended up buying a Savage muzzleloader. I spent the time to read  EVERY  article written on Randy Wakemans' website. Hats off to Randy for all the time and effort it took to compile and write all those articles and share the knowledge with the rest of us. It sure shortened my learning curve.
I am happy to report that this is the most enjoyable muzzleloader that I have ever shot. It's a pleasure to spend more time shooting, than cleaning, like the old style muzzleloader I had. Recoil is hardly nothing with the 300 gr. bullets, alot less than my old rig with 120-150 gr 777. I have only shot it a couple of times, and am already getting 4" groups @ 200 yards with a 3x9 scope. This is a great muzzleloader.
                                                    
                                                               James Hurst

[Bluejazz]

 I have had more time to shoot the Savage muzzleloader since my last post, and I find that I am having trouble repeating previous stated  results. The 4" groups @ 200 with 250gr TMZ  seem to be the best I am capable of. For some reason this gun will not group anything over 250 gr. I have tried 275 , 285, 290 , and 300 gr bullets and can't get anything to group under 3.5" @ 100, or 8-12" @ 200 yds. I have used AA5744 (42-45gr)and Vihtavouri N120(54-60gr) powders. I have also used Federal 209A and Winchester 209 primers.
Nothing at this point seems to be standing out as a good load for anything over 250gr. My question is , what else to try to get better results for the 275gr and up bullets ? A muzzleloader designed to shoot a 300 gr bullet, for some reason I am having trouble getting it to do it . Any help would be appreciated.

[NeverNoLuck]

What sabots are you using? MMP? orange black whatever other ones they have? Might be worth a try using a different sabot per bullet? Oh what 300 gr bullet you using?

[RandyWakeman]

I have had more time to shoot the Savage muzzleloader since my last post, and I find that I am having trouble repeating previous stated  results. The 4" groups @ 200 with 250gr TMZ  seem to be the best I am capable of. For some reason this gun will not group anything over 250 gr. I have tried 275 , 285, 290 , and 300 gr bullets and can't get anything to group under 3.5" @ 100, or 8-12" @ 200 yds. I have used AA5744 (42-45gr)and Vihtavouri N120(54-60gr) powders. I have also used Federal 209A and Winchester 209 primers.
Nothing at this point seems to be standing out as a good load for anything over 250gr. My question is , what else to try to get better results for the 275gr and up bullets ? A muzzleloader designed to shoot a 300 gr bullet, for some reason I am having trouble getting it to do it . Any help would be appreciated.

MMP Orange sabots (.458 / 50) and Hornady 300 gr. #4500 HP bullets, or Barnes Original 300 gr. SS-SP bullets (same sabot) are the easiest for me to get to shoot.

TMZ bullets and other boat tail bullets do not generally do that well. A boat tail cause more sabot stress.

45 gr. 5744 is too much, 40 - 44 is it. 57 gr. N120 has given me the best results - - - both with 300 gr. bullets.

Your gun will do 1-1/2 in. groups. If you think you've given it a fair shake, send it to Savage. The 285 and 290 gr. bullets are nothing I've had luck with.

[Savage Shooter]

A 290 TMZ type bullet is available WITHOUT the boat tail (named F/B Maximum by seller).

I have not tested them yet, (tho I am sure I will, being an addict and all) but they should solve the sabot distortion problems related to boat tails and heavy/faster loads.

Between these OR the tried & true Original you can find a good long range elk load.

For elk size animals they will be effective if you can get them to shoot.

http://maximummuzzleloading.com/bullets.html

[Bluejazz]

Thanks for the replies. I am going to do more work with this muzzleloader, because I want to figure it out, and not just jump to sending it back to Savage. I think Savage has a great product here, even though I am having a little trouble fine tuning it at the moment. I have been using MMP sabots, as recomended on Randy Wakemans's site. I bought this muzzleloader because I read that it was designed around shooting the 300gr. weight bullet, which is what I want to hunt elk with. So, hopefully I can get this figured out.
                                                            James Hurst

[jpdown]

James,

I had similar problems trying to find the perfect load. As you may have already read, if the barrel is warm to the touch, accuracy will go down hill. I wasted a lot of time, powder and bullets before I took this advice to heart and let my barrel completely cool. I also learned the hard way you must have a tight sabot/bullet combination to get good accuracy and reliable ignition, especially with N120. No doubt the Barnes Original would be my choice for elk. If the Barnes Original with MMP Orange Sabot is not giving a tight fit, try the MMP EZ-load sabot or Harvester Black Crush Rib sabot with the BO. Work up from a starting load of 56 gr N120. Others have had good luck by knurling  bullets with a file to get a tighter fit. You might have what some Savage ML owners are calling a "loose bore" Savage. The right sabot/bullet combination my improve your accuracy with N120 and the BO. Good luck!  

[Bluejazz]

jbdown,

Are you refering to the MMP HPH 3 Petal-EZ ? And where do you get the "Harvester Red Crush Rib "

[jpdown]

James,

Yes, the MMP 3-petal EZ load sabot, BO 300g bullet and 57g N120 works the best in my gun.  Another very accurate load was 57g N120 with 300g XTP non magmum and MMP HPH-12 Black Sabot. I attribute this to tight bullet/sabot/bore fit with these combinations in my gun.

I tried all of Randy's other pet loads with N120 and AA 5774 and MMP sabots.  I got poor accuracy and/or powder ignition failures in my gun, especially with N120.  As I learned more from this and other sites, I realized because of loose sabot/bullet/bore fit in my gun, I was getting inconsistent powder ignition and burn. I reasoned this was the root of my poor accuracy. I could not get the Barnes Original with Orange MMP sabot to shoot under 2" because of loose fit (2 finger loading).  Tried the MMP EZ-load sabot as a last resort.  My groups dropped to 1" or less.       

Google Harvester Muzzle Loading. I ordered mine from Mid South Shooters Supply. Send me a PM with your address and I will give you the Black and Red CRS I have left (25-50 of each), since they did not  work with my Savage ML.