2 powder loads?

[D hunter]

On the other website for savage ML II there are loads posted for 2 powder loads.  Pardon my ignorance but do you put the N 110 or 5744 in first then the bulk powder and load as usual or do you mix them completely and load as if it was a single powder?  Thanks.   "D'

[tucker301]

I saw that and wondered the same.
I'd recommend asking that question over there.
In fact, I'll ask for you. 

[tucker301]

... And they have answered.
Booster first, then primary on top. Just like the Space Shuttle. 

Do not mix them.

[jpdown]

Playing with duplex loads (fire) for just a little more speed is foolish, IMO. And certainly not endorsed by Savage.

[doegirl]

Playing with duplex loads (fire) for just a little more speed is foolish, IMO. And certainly not endorsed by Savage.

I used to think the same way...  Then I came to realization that it's not necessarily these guys who play with duplex loads who are foolish...  What would be foolish is for ME to experiment with duplex loads.  I have no real knowledge of how duplexing works, the powders involved, and what are truly are the dangers.  My simple, forgetful mind cannot handle more than one powder at a time.  But it is fun to read about

[tucker301]

The way I see it is that the loads have been developed and tested by people who know what they're doing.
Of course, Savage doesn't endorse them in any way, but this isn't a Savage corporate site either.

Over the years, many innovations have resulted from tinkerers tinkering.
In fact, I'm pretty sure the Savage smokeless ML wouldn't exist today were it not for such pioneering spirits.
Heck, we wouldn't even have smokeless power or primer ignition were it not for some rule breakers along the way. 

Now I'm not one to go out and jump buses with motorcycles, but I'm OK with others doing it, as long as they understand the risks.
So I say, why not?

Like doegirl, I'm content, for now, with my single powder loads.
But I'm also glad that there are some adventurists out there pushing the edges a bit.
Who knows, in another year or two, we may see some updates to the "approved loads" lists.

[RandyWakeman]

On the other website for savage ML II there are loads posted for 2 powder loads.  Pardon my ignorance but do you put the N 110 or 5744 in first then the bulk powder and load as usual or do you mix them completely and load as if it was a single powder?  Thanks.   "D'

In a sport where many seemingly cannot decide whether to use Pyrodex RS vs. Select or "P," or Triple 7 FFg vs. Triple 7 FFFg-- the last complication a new shooter needs is to decide is which two smokeless powders he should combine. According to every major powder manufacturer I've discussed this with, results are unpredictable-- unapproved, untested, and fundamentally unsafe. Neither SAAMI nor the CIP allow any such combinations of dissimilar powders in any small arms application. Smokeless powder can vary from lot-to-lot, the amount of variance when attempting to combine powders introduces the possibility of far more uncontrolled anomalies.


"Duplex" loads are a peculiar notion that I'm personally completely against. They are not allowed by Savage Arms, not laboratory tested, nor are they allowed by any major smokeless powder manufacturer that I'm aware of. No reloading manual suggests their use under any circumstances; most loudly caution against ANY co-mingling of powders. I wish that those that fancy themselves as experienced reloaders would take a deep breath, step back, and count the number of "duplex" powder loads they use in firearms other than the Savage 10ML-II.

As it is, with N110 or similar, all the gas needed to destroy accuracy is available to the new Savage shooter, with as much recoil as most care to enjoy. The Savage 10ML-II is such a clean, simple, safe gun. To throw that away with homebrew mish-mash duplex / triplex loads has no merit. Not one firearm I have ever owned, rifle, pistol, shotgun . . . has ever performed at its best with the fastest thing that comes out of the muzzle. The 10ML is no exception. There must be something about the human condition that compels us to abuse our equipment?

Already, there are well-proven, accurate 2300 fps arena loads with Vihtavouri N110 and other straight powders that retain plenty of energy to cleanly harvest any deer on the planet to 500 yards, and are easy 230 yard + MPBR loadings. The last thing needed (IMO) is an extra 200 fps with loads of unknown pressure, and to promulgate duplex loadings to a prospective new Savage owner is a bit negligent, in my view. As a matter of course, as muzzle velocity increases, the BC's diminish in concert. At range, game-harvesting effectiveness differences for North American game animals, is little more than trivia.

All this, in a sport where sub-100 yard hunting is the norm, and sub-50 yard shots the most common whether ML or center-fire. I believe that to continue along these lines is folly. Pity the poor Savage owner that attempts to convince a state DNR that the more radical loads are anything but the equivalent of a single-shot .458 WinMag. Ballistically, they are not.

Anyway, that's my opinion-- the only one I happened to be equipped with. Neither Savage Arms, Hodgdon / IMR, Alliant, Olin / Winchester, or Accurate Powders disagrees. Nor does the man that designed the 10-ML in the first place.

Bullets and sabots will incrementally improve, as they have all along-- and the standard load performance of the 10-ML along with it (as well as other muzzleloaders). To dilute the true beauty of the Savage 10ML: clean, strong, sealed, corrosion-free, safe, accurate, reliable, mild recoil, economical cost per shot with promotion of experimental, non-approved bathtub gin powder columns is a tragedy. The competitors, who have already clearly sought to derail the 10ML project since its inception could not have written a better prescription for its untimely demise, were they clever enough to do so. 

To not raise questions and concerns about amateurish load development is to give tacit approval to it. No single human life or limb is worth taking unnecessary risks. Either you "know" or you "don't know" what they are. With today's impressive array of ever-improving propellants, sabots, and projectiles, assuming the risks associated with the unproven and unknowns is best left strictly to the ballistic laboratories and other experienced professionals that do this for a living.

Savage prohibits mixing of powders under any circumstances, period.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

Back during my 10 foot tall and bulletproof days, they could not make it, that I thought couldn't go faster, further,quicker, or higher. Bigger was always better.
After 3 supped up car crashes, and 5 motorcycle wrecks, I can now take my knee problems, back problems, 2 broken wrists, and multiple injuries to other parts of my body to the range,and have absolutely NO urges to experiment with my rifle.
The ML II shoots great with the loads that are recommended, and I see no reason for me to experiment.
If you could get 3000 fps from any load, there is no real useable  difference in trajectory from the 2300 fps I'm shooting now.

Big and slow works fine for me. Ask anyone who has hit a deer at 65 mph with a 59 caddy.

[tucker301]

By all accounts I've seen the loads are completely safe and pressures are actually lower than the single powder loads.
As for accidental mixing or putting the wrong one in first, they say that the worst you can do is to weaken the load. The prescribed loading method makes it as powerful as it can be. Any other way is a loss, nothing more.

I don't get the whole statement about Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc.
Most of us hunt in our home state only, so we abide by whatever laws apply there.
So, if smokeless is legal, I shoot smokeless, and the others are like an ugly girl's phone number - information I don't need to remember. 

[153]

Most everyone who has shot a ML has shot a duplex load.Just look at a 50 grain Pyrodex Pellet,it has black powder on one end to help with ignition,is this not a duplex?All a duplex does is the same principal,uses the faster burning powder first to help with ignition and build pressure and the slower powder helps with speed.I am sure many said and wrote bad things about Henry and Bill Ball when they were building the first smokeless ML as they went against the norm but we ended up with something much superior to standard ML guns.

[RandyWakeman]

Most everyone who has shot a ML has shot a duplex load.Just look at a 50 grain Pyrodex Pellet,it has black powder on one end to help with ignition,is this not a duplex?

With that broad paintbrush, eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is not just eating a sandwich, it is devouring a "duplex" sandwich. Add butter to the mix, it is a triplex, and I suppose with bread it would be considered a quadraplex snack.

A "50 grain" Pyrodex pellet does not weigh 50 grains, not is it even a powder. A flammable solid unitized charge is hardly powder at all; it bears more semblance to an Estes model rocket engine than powder. It would hardly be considered "duplex" in any rational or conventional use of the term. Words mean things; a lump is a lump, a cylinder is a cylinder, and powder is powder. For marketing purposes, extreme liberty can be taken with many things... and often has been.

Mixing powders is dangerous and may have disastrous consequences. The most well-respected professional ballisticians will all tell you that. As Henry Ball likes to say, "If you want to be dumb you gotta be tough."

An injection of common sense will tell you that in muzzleloading, mixing powders is stupidly unsmart. That is all you are doing is mixing powders. Drop some powder down your muzzle. Think it all just drops down to the bottom like building a layer cake?

Of course it doesn't. Some adheres to rifling grooves and the barrel wall, and what lands on the bottom is hardly a uniform layer. Do it again, the same happens. Now, when you seat a sabot, obviously the sabot wipes powder from the wall and adds it to the mix. Seating a sabot also forces a column of air through your barrel-- you can hear it hiss out the breechplug. Blowing air on different types of powder is equally chaotic.

The hemispherical base of a sabot further mixes the powder upon seating. No flat, circular disc-- it obviously adds more chaos. Any breechplug is just a flash hole, blowing the powder column forward with great force, swirling the powder around even more. Your empty breechplug is hardly empty: it has air in it. That cold air is injected into the powder charge, mixing and moving it before any primer material can possibly get there. More random mixing.

Mixing powders is just plain dumb. Candidates for the "Darwin Award" might think it is clever, but Henry Ball is right-- if you want to be dumb, you really better be tough.

[tucker301]

An injection of common sense will tell you that in muzzleloading, mixing powders is stupidly unsmart. That is all you are doing is mixing powders. Drop some powder down your muzzle. Think it all just drops down to the bottom like building a layer cake?

If he was using a broad brush, then you've brought out the 9 inch roller.

By and large, the bulk of the first powder in will be at the bottom. See Isaac Newton if you still need some help with that.
Also, as mentioned before, even if you put the wrong powder in first, or completely mix them up when putting them in, the worst thing that can happen is that the load is weakened.
It is at its strongest when loaded per the recipe.

As for being stupid, careless, etc., that can occur with any propellant and any given shooter.
It ain't rocket science, but you have to pay attention to what you're doing.
So if you don't think you have the faculties to pay attention and follow directions, then by all means, don't load duplex. In fact, you probably shouldn't be loading anything stronger than a slingshot.

[MrFurious]

And I think this is just about enough nonsense regarding the stupidity of wanting to shoot duplex loads.  The facts are the facts, and pretty much as Randy has reported them, and that's the end of it.