GRAPHIC Why you don't hunt whitetails with a .300RUM

[davemuzz]

From what I just read about this ammo on the Midway web site http://www.midwayusa.com/product/236215/remington-premier-power-level-2-ammunition-300-remington-ultra-magnum-180-grain-core-lokt-ultra-bonded-pointed-soft-point-box-of-20?cm_vc=subv1595448 the power level II is made for shooting whitetails and muley's. The bullet is a lead core bonded bullet (not a ballistic tip) and made to give a controlled expansion and keep most of it's weight. Ballistic tip bullets are meant to explode on impact and essentially turn everything to mush, then blow it out the other side. I once hit a groundhog at 30 yards with a 40gr. BT at 2400fps MV. It literally turned the entire rib cage inside out.

If you do your research and reload your cartridges, you can arrive at the same place that Rem does with their power factor ammo. Good stuff when used for the right job.

Dave

[big honkin jeep]

Dave, The right ammo for the job is very important and the all of the reduced "Power level" ammo from remington works well. Remington also produced some. Managed recoil ammo that mimics 30-06 velocity. I must throw out a word of caution about reducing powder charges below published minimums especially with this large case. Hang fires are very likely (click...1...2...3...BOOM) and overpressure is also a distinct possibility. I Was able to get some safe reduced load data for this cartridge from Ramshot powders by contacting them online. Good luck and stay safe.

[big honkin jeep]

PS the deer in the pic was NOT shot with a ballistic tip, or any other plastic tipped or match bullet. It was a full powered factory loaded 180gr Remington Core Loct soft point

[thermaler]

From what I just read about this ammo on the Midway web site http://www.midwayusa.com/product/236215/remington-premier-power-level-2-ammunition-300-remington-ultra-magnum-180-grain-core-lokt-ultra-bonded-pointed-soft-point-box-of-20?cm_vc=subv1595448 the power level II is made for shooting whitetails and muley's. The bullet is a lead core bonded bullet (not a ballistic tip) and made to give a controlled expansion and keep most of it's weight. Ballistic tip bullets are meant to explode on impact and essentially turn everything to mush, then blow it out the other side. I once hit a groundhog at 30 yards with a 40gr. BT at 2400fps MV. It literally turned the entire rib cage inside out.

If you do your research and reload your cartridges, you can arrive at the same place that Rem does with their power factor ammo. Good stuff when used for the right job.

DaveWith respect I disagree with the ballistic tip observation--as named it simply describes the action of the tip on impact to initiate expansion--not necessarily what happens to the core/body of the bullet. Nosler's varmint grade bullet IS designed to explode on impact--but that's mostly due to it's purpose-built thin jacket design, and the same result will happen with any similar design. I think what this example shows is that even "conventional controlled-expansion" designs can become miniature artillery rounds when driven to the edge of their speed/stability designs, which may not necessarily be a function of the ammo itself but the weapon and/or application it's used for.

[davemuzz]

Two observations:

First, this deer was shot with a full power 300RUM Core Lok Rem bullet. That was stated in the OP and I suppose I didn't directly address this in any of my post, but I indirectly address this. However…none of that matters as I will give you my thoughts on (and remember, my opinion is worth what you paid for it) shooting any whitetail with a full power 300RUM no matter what the bullet. Unless, the bullet is a low right thru the heart shot, or a quality double lung shot….in between the ribs (and that's a low % chance of happening) shot, then using a "magnumites" full load caliber on whitetail is likely going to be too much power. (As witnessed by the OP photo.) A loaded down version of the core lock would have still killed the deer, and done much less damage. Of course, a better place shot with a loaded down cartridge (say around 2700fps MV) would kill the deer.

Second: The :Ballistic Tip bullets are designed to open up much faster than a conventional lead tip bullet. So, your wound channel begins much sooner and the expansion of the bullet begins sooner….and of course…opens more as it travels thru the game. So, it stands to reason that shooting the same weight bullet of a lead tip vs. a BT when hitting a deer at the same POI, the BT will exit the deer, having a larger bullet expansion than that of a lead tip. The BT will have caused more damage and released more energy into the deer.

So, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to shoot a BT at whitetail….heck, they make BT's to kill whitetail. All I'm saying is if your shooting these at a close range from a 300RUM, then you better get better at shot placement, or (and likely a better choice) is to have your 300RUM's ammo loaded down so you don't damage your whitetails as the OP's photo shows.

I've loaded and shot 7mm BT's at whitetails and they perform quite well. But these were from a 7-30 waters T\C 14" hand-pistol barrel. The MV was about 2,000fps and the bullet did it's job. The deer were all about 100 yards. Of course, at those velocities, no large explosions took place.

And better shot placement always helps.

Dave

[thermaler]

Agree with everything you say--your original statement seemed to suggest that ballistic tip bullets are designed to explode on impact and I took that literally. : )

[davemuzz]

Agree with everything you say--your original statement seemed to suggest that ballistic tip bullets are designed to explode on impact and I took that literally. : )

Nah…I only use my grenade launcher on the very last day of deer season!!! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

[john800]

ballistic tips vary greatly depending on the weight and caliber
I have shot deer with 130 and 150 nosler balistic tips at 270 win speeds for years, they seem to put deer down a bit faster than corelockts or soft points and I really havent noticed anymore meat damage when hit comparably, they work fine I was talking to a guy a while back who thought I was crazy shooting deer with ballistic tips, we has amazed that all the bullets exit on a broadside chest shot, he seemed to think they were all like the varmint bullets.
I was shooting some plastic tipped vmax bullets in my 22-250 and my buddy and I grabbed some empty plastic antifreze jugs from the shop before we left work to tape out targets to with some sand in the bottom. there were bullet holes in the way in and a pattern in the backside of the jug where the fragments exited, so that bullet was completely vaporized after 1 layer if a plastic jug!!

I have also been intriged by the deer I have seen shot with a muzzleloader, which should be simalor to daves 45-70, lots of energy, little meat damage, very quick kills, almost magic. total destruction within the wound channel, outside is not touched

[J.Baker]

Not to stir the pot but my stepfather shot 2 deer yesterday in the Michigan opener with his 300rum. The first was an averaged sized 3 point at roughly 100 yards. The second was an average sized doe at about 260 yards. The buck was a spine shot just behind the front shoulders, the doe was a double lung shot. Both had guts that were still intact, no jelly. Neither had an exit hole over 1". He was shooting the Remington ammo 180gr core-lokt power level 2.

What you fail to realize though is that our whitetail deer here in the midwest are 2-3 times the size of the whitetail deer in the southeast. Down south a 150-200 pound buck is a trophy whitetail, up here we'd accuse you of shooting the neighbors dog. I've shot doe here in Ohio that have weighted close to 200 pounds field dressed, and it's not uncommon to have bucks that are approaching 300 pounds on the hoof.

[thermaler]

What you fail to realize though is that our whitetail deer here in the midwest are 2-3 times the size of the whitetail deer in the southeast. Down south a 150-200 pound buck is a trophy whitetail, up here we'd accuse you of shooting the neighbors dog. I've shot doe here in Ohio that have weighted close to 200 pounds field dressed, and it's not uncommon to have bucks that are approaching 300 pounds on the hoof.What difference does the size of the target make on this bullet's performance?

[davemuzz]

What difference does the size of the target make on this bullet's performance?

For your average 130-LB Pa. anterless (doe) whitetail a 129gr Hornady SST will do the job just fine. OTOH, I doubt if anyone would recommend this same bullet for a large African animal such as Kudu or Elephant, or Wildebeest. You may get the same "bullet performance", but it may not be enough bullet energy to accomplish a clean kill on your animal.

For the most part….the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Dave

[thermaler]

For your average 130-LB Pa. anterless (doe) whitetail a 129gr Hornady SST will do the job just fine. OTOH, I doubt if anyone would recommend this same bullet for a large African animal such as Kudu or Elephant, or Wildebeest. You may get the same "bullet performance", but it may not be enough bullet energy to accomplish a clean kill on your animal.

For the most part….the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

DaveThanks Dave--I get that, I'm just wondering what difference the size of the deer makes on the ballistic impact performance of the 180 gr kore lokt 2 through the RUM as discussed. My understanding is either "it is going to turn to jelly mush" or not. I sincerely do not understand how the relative size of what it hits is going to determine whether or not the bullet becomes a "jellymusher."

[davemuzz]

Thanks Dave--I get that, I'm just wondering what difference the size of the deer makes on the ballistic impact performance of the 180 gr kore lokt 2 through the RUM as discussed. My understanding is either "it is going to turn to jelly mush" or not. I sincerely do not understand how the relative size of what it hits is going to determine whether or not the bullet becomes a "jellymusher."

Well Thermaler, I think your asking a valid question. And IMHO (and remember…your getting what you paid for) in a perfect world, if your shooting a 275-lb whitetail on a broadside shot, through the lungs or the lower heart shot, vs a broadside shot on a 110-lb whitetail on a broadside shot, through the lungs or the lower heart shot, your likely going to get the same results. Why? Because the width of each deer (the 275 vs the 110) really isn't significant enough to make a difference in a bullet with a MV of 2700+fps. Yes, the bullet may not exit the larger deer, but it's likely to punch thru both lungs of both deer, or take out the blood pump of either.

Now, the above was in a "perfect broadside shot world." Of course, if your shot is a quarter-too, or quarter-away, and the hunter doesn't place the bullet where he wanted to (for a variety of reasons) and say the said bullet catches a large bone, plus a lot of heavy meat, the lower velocity RUM bullet may simply not reach the boiler room. Where if the same bullet were shot at "full boat" from the RUM, it more than likely would reach the liver, lung or heart, and cause certain death of the game. (Of course, I don't want to get into the discussion of a gut shot)

At a gun club that I previously belonged to, it was primarily a hunting club and most members would butcher their deer at the club's very high quality facility. So, many times, previous years arrow heads, or bullets would be found in a current years kill. Interesting to see how not to shoot deer at certain angles with a bow or an under caliber bullet.

FWIW, and I hope I answered what I thought was your question.

Dave

[thermaler]

Well Thermaler, I think your asking a valid question. And IMHO (and remember…your getting what you paid for) in a perfect world, if your shooting a 275-lb whitetail on a broadside shot, through the lungs or the lower heart shot, vs a broadside shot on a 110-lb whitetail on a broadside shot, through the lungs or the lower heart shot, your likely going to get the same results. Why? Because the width of each deer (the 275 vs the 110) really isn't significant enough to make a difference in a bullet with a MV of 2700+fps. Yes, the bullet may not exit the larger deer, but it's likely to punch thru both lungs of both deer, or take out the blood pump of either.

Now, the above was in a "perfect broadside shot world." Of course, if your shot is a quarter-too, or quarter-away, and the hunter doesn't place the bullet where he wanted to (for a variety of reasons) and say the said bullet catches a large bone, plus a lot of heavy meat, the lower velocity RUM bullet may simply not reach the boiler room. Where if the same bullet were shot at "full boat" from the RUM, it more than likely would reach the liver, lung or heart, and cause certain death of the game. (Of course, I don't want to get into the discussion of a gut shot)

At a gun club that I previously belonged to, it was primarily a hunting club and most members would butcher their deer at the club's very high quality facility. So, many times, previous years arrow heads, or bullets would be found in a current years kill. Interesting to see how not to shoot deer at certain angles with a bow or an under caliber bullet.

FWIW, and I hope I answered what I thought was your question.

DaveThanks for the useful info--it helps me to continue my understanding. I may be misunderstanding the thread--but my impression is that what the OP is talking about is the issue of using a high-powered, high velocity round which exploded internally demolishing large quantities of tissue. Then some guy said his dad used a lower power version of the same kore lokt and the bullet simply entered and exited the smaller deer without exploding or otherwise causing massive damage to internal tissue. He was then reminded that they were small deer--not big ones--as if the size of the deer was a factor in whether or not the bullet exploded with devastating effect--and I'm having trouble understanding how the relative size of the deer would have any effect on whether or not a bullet explodes on impact--it seems to me it either does or doesn't regardless of size. Won't be the first time I'm clueless. : )

[davemuzz]

not big ones--as if the size of the deer was a factor in whether or not the bullet exploded with devastating effect--and I'm having trouble understanding how the relative size of the deer would have any effect on whether or not a bullet explodes on impact--it seems to me it either does or doesn't regardless of size. Won't be the first time I'm clueless. : )

Well, again….a few factors will have an effect on bullet performance when it impacts game.

#1- Is the bullet construction. As was pointed out, a ballistic tip will open sooner and shed it's energy faster than say a partition bullet.
#2- So, if you use a ballistic tip on a large 300-lb whitetail and the bullet hits the animal in the rear leg bone while headed towards the heart\lung area, chances are the bullet will not make it there as it's construction is made to shed it's energy quickly…and hitting hard BIG bone, plus BIG chunks of meat will cause the bullet to shead it's energy, and not penetrate to the animals vitals. (Of course, a hunter could get lucky and hit the animals femoral artery.)
#3- If the same bullet as discussed in #2 above would hit a 120-lb deer, it would likely make it to the vital organ area.
#4- If the bullet were constructed as a partition, it would make it to the vital area of either a heavy or light weight deer.
#5- If the bullet were traveling at maximum speed from a RUM, the small deer would lose probably most of it's one half hind quarter meat because of the energy shed. The large deer would also lose probably half of it's one side of hind quarter of meat. (That's an educated guess on my part)
#6- With a partition bullet, a broadside shot on a small deer, if not placed perfectly, could pass thru the deer and not hit any vital organ and the deer could escape just wounded, or wounded enough to run such a distance that recovery would be impossible.

Thoughts from my experience. As limited as it is.

Dave.

[thermaler]

Well, again….a few factors will have an effect on bullet performance when it impacts game.

#1- Is the bullet construction. As was pointed out, a ballistic tip will open sooner and shed it's energy faster than say a partition bullet.
#2- So, if you use a ballistic tip on a large 300-lb whitetail and the bullet hits the animal in the rear leg bone while headed towards the heart\lung area, chances are the bullet will not make it there as it's construction is made to shed it's energy quickly…and hitting hard BIG bone, plus BIG chunks of meat will cause the bullet to shead it's energy, and not penetrate to the animals vitals. (Of course, a hunter could get lucky and hit the animals femoral artery.)
#3- If the same bullet as discussed in #2 above would hit a 120-lb deer, it would likely make it to the vital organ area.
#4- If the bullet were constructed as a partition, it would make it to the vital area of either a heavy or light weight deer.
#5- If the bullet were traveling at maximum speed from a RUM, the small deer would lose probably most of it's one half hind quarter meat because of the energy shed. The large deer would also lose probably half of it's one side of hind quarter of meat. (That's an educated guess on my part)
#6- With a partition bullet, a broadside shot on a small deer, if not placed perfectly, could pass thru the deer and not hit any vital organ and the deer could escape just wounded, or wounded enough to run such a distance that recovery would be impossible.

Thoughts from my experience. As limited as it is.

Dave.
I'm sure what you say is correct and I appreciate it. I was just under the impression that the relative size of what the bullet hits (not density; i.e. bone etc) is not going to be a factor in whether or not the bullet vaporizes--or put better it is density, not size, that will cause a bullet to explode (assuming the bullet is traveling at such a speed/range that it is near it's instability threshold).

[davemuzz]

I'm sure what you say is correct and I appreciate it. I was just under the impression that the relative size of what the bullet hits (not density; i.e. bone etc) is not going to be a factor in whether or not the bullet vaporizes--or put better it is density, not size, that will cause a bullet to explode (assuming the bullet is traveling at such a speed/range that it is near it's instability threshold).

Well, I'd look at it this way. If you shoot a bullet, any bullet no matter what the construction, into a 2" piece of pine timber and the bullet blows a 4" diameter hole out of the other side, then take the same bullet and shoot it thru a 4" piece of pine, then a 6" piece of pine, and on and on until you reach….say a 12" piece of pine and at that point the bullet will not exit, you will also find that the exit hole become smaller and smaller as the timber becomes thicker.

That's the "density" of the material the bullet is hitting. No different than the bullet hitting a big deer or a small deer. Same principles apply. How could it be different? Why would it be different? The bullet is going to travel thru more deer mass…it would have to act different.

Dave

[thermaler]

Well, I'd look at it this way. If you shoot a bullet, any bullet no matter what the construction, into a 2" piece of pine timber and the bullet blows a 4" diameter hole out of the other side, then take the same bullet and shoot it thru a 4" piece of pine, then a 6" piece of pine, and on and on until you reach….say a 12" piece of pine and at that point the bullet will not exit, you will also find that the exit hole become smaller and smaller as the timber becomes thicker.

That's the "density" of the material the bullet is hitting. No different than the bullet hitting a big deer or a small deer. Same principles apply. How could it be different? Why would it be different? The bullet is going to travel thru more deer mass…it would have to act different.

DaveI understand that the size of the mass of the deer are going to affect how far the bullet will go and in turn how much tissue damage will occur--but to me the real problem here is that the bullet--as designed with quick-expanding tip--is going too fast and is going to explode on impact, imparting catastrophic tissue damage regardless of the size of the deer. I'm thinking the only relevance the size of the deer has on whether the bullet explodes is how much tissue there is to absorb the impact force--but the tissue trauma from the shattering bullet (not over-all area) effect will be essentially the same.

[big honkin jeep]

Seeing as how a sirocco bonded traveled lengthwise through a southern whitetail completely destroying everything in it's path Ilm not sure tah a broadside on a deer from any other part of the countrywould yeild much different results. I'm pretty sure that the carnage comes from the velocity. More bone in a thicker shoulder may even lead to more shrapnel/damage. In my opinion the guidelines of the game specific loads offered by remington are a good idea.

[davemuzz]

Seeing as how a sirocco bonded traveled lengthwise through a southern whitetail completely destroying everything in it's path Ilm not sure tah a broadside on a deer from any other part of the countrywould yeild much different results. I'm pretty sure that the carnage comes from the velocity. More bone in a thicker shoulder may even lead to more shrapnel/damage. In my opinion the guidelines of the game specific loads offered by remington are a good idea.


And I couldn't agree with you more. After all, Rem's ballistican's put these loads together and they do know what they are doing.



I'm thinking the only relevance the size of the deer has on whether the bullet explodes is how much tissue there is to absorb the impact force--but the tissue trauma from the shattering bullet (not over-all area) effect will be essentially the same.

No. I think you miss the point here. A fat deer will need more penetration than a skinny little deer. You have more inches of "stuff" to go thru in a big fat deer to reach the vital heart\lung\liver (lethal) area than you do in a small skinny deer. If the BT bullet is going as fast as it can, it may blow up before it reaches the vitals. (Remember why Nosler bullets got their start. The founder went north on a moose hunt and the bullets he was using were destroyed by the heavy covering of mud on the side of a moose he was shooting at. The bullet never made it into the moose. Bullet construction means everything.) If the bullet is traveling too slow, it still will not reach the vital area.

If you really want a good understanding of choosing the right bullet, read "Rifle bullets for the Hunter" http://www.riflebullets.net found at this link. What you will find is depending upon the game you desire to shoot, the distance you believe your shot will be, you will then choose the bullet type. Then your next logical step is to choose what cartridge you need in order to deliver the bullet at the proper velocity and energy at your average distance. So, you may end up needing a non-magnum cartridge, or an AI cartridge, or a magnum cartridge to deliver the chosen bullet to make the clean kill on the game your after.

FWIW

Dave