MOA vs Mil

[BarrelNuts]

I'll be on my way back from a trip to Cali... will actually be returning to the Phila. area before heading back south... not sure how far that is from Driftwood...

Using a 1 MOA dot would be nearly impossible as you would have to figure out how many of those dots cover the target. Also, one key feature is knowing the approximate/average size of the target so random rocks would be difficult. If you know, for instance, the average width of a human torso is 18 inches or the average shoulder height of a white tail buck is 36 inches... then you can use the reticle to measure how many minutes wide or tall the target is... say the deer example your reticle has the deer as 12 minutes... your estimated range will be about 300 yards. Keep in mind the further out you go the more than pesky ".05" of 1.05 inches per minute become... a 5% error within 200 or 300 yards won't be enough to cause a total miss; but at 500+ along with variances in target size that factor can throw you off a good bit. For quick, on the fly estimation it works as just that... an on the fly best estimate. If you have the time and equipment... laser all day long. Here is a decent youtube video too... explains better than I can.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpS7iWplQZI

[MS50]

When shopping for a scope for my 308, the advice I received was to get a mil/mil scope, and learn to work in meters rather than yards. I would be able to range targets using the mildots. I have a mil/mil scope and have never used it to range a target other than to range a paper/steel target of known dimensions. When I was shopping, the long range matches I am familiar with required ranging targets before taking the shot. Now rangefinders are the standard. I think ranging was taking a lot of time. For tactical and long range hunting applications, a mil/mil scope is the right choice. I will use mine for neither. I have learned to think in mils. I am still dialing follow-up shots, but I am working on using the dots for follow-ups. I can't get the scope back on target very well, so I usually don't see the splash, and rely on a spotter. The point of this is that although I've learned to use the mildot scope fairly well, it's probably not necessary as I'm not ranging targets.

[BarrelNuts]

Mil/mil and learning to range and calculate in meters to me is reinventing the wheel though when I already know inches/yards. As long as the reticle matches the adjustments (mil/mil or MOA/moa) the process is simple once you practice it... Problem is for many scopes there is this weird marriage of mil based reticles and MOA based adjustment. Then you add another step to the math to convert what you range in the scope to what you dial on the turret. If you are using a chronograph to get initial approximations on velocities to input into a ballistic calculator going to mils and meters requires another conversion too; although most calculators will do this for you there still has to be a conversion between fps and mps. Again not saying mil based systems are wrong or denying they have some advantages; just to me the math is easier and I'm already familiar with MOA

[yobuck]

I started watching the video but due to interuptions no doubt caused by my setup i lost patience and closed it down.
In his opening remarks he said it all. (ON A TARGET OF KNOWN DIMENSIONS)
And of coarse the (target) will most likely also be at a KNOWN DISTANCE, like say 1000 yds.
So in actuality its showing you how to get the bullet from point A to point B on a (target) by using the reticle.
At least thats where the video was when i shut it down.
Listen, anybody who wants to take the very few days they (might) get each year hunting, and rely on this type B S is just fine with me.
Take it to the bank that as for (hunting) thats just what it is, B S.
My offer remains open for anybody really interested in finding out for them selves first hand.
We can run thru some (virtual) hunting scenarios while wearing t shirts.
As for dialing MS50, most experienced hunters wont be dialing for follow up shots unless it was a wide margin miss or theres been a significent distance change between shots.
And even that might vary depending on the distance involved or the possibility of a tree branch stepping into the bullet path.
Problem here to a large degree is that (theory) is being used in an attempt to overcome the lack of on the job experience.
Look ignore everything ive said, most will anyway. Call Euro Optics who sell only the best of optics. Ask to talk with Jason Baney who runs the sales dept.
He also runs the 6 BR website. Tell him your interested in starting long range shooting/hunting and your interested in obtaining a scope
with a reticle you can both shoot well and range game with also. They sell Vortex also and nobody would be more knowledgable than he would be
to discuss this with. Including the guy in the video.

BarrelNuts, Driftwood would be about a 5 hr drive from the Philly airport. Pittsburg would be about 1 1/2 hrs closer.
If you can arrainge some time you would be welcome to come. I would simply show you the various equiptment we use and how we use it.
Then you can use it and judge for yourself. I will make one prediction, within a few hours you will change your mind pertaining to what
you now know or think you know about long range hunting. And you will do that all on your own with no preaching or teaching on my part.
If you can shoot a one inch group you will hit 1000 yd rocks with a gun you never shot before and laugh over how easy it was.
I will hand you a gun and have you hit rocks first shot without touching the scope. And its about a 30 year old scope. Again, you will do it not me.
How about offhand, are you ready for that?




Bring your scope, i'll furnish everything else including the beverages.

[BarrelNuts]

I started watching the video but due to interuptions no doubt caused by my setup i lost patience and closed it down.
In his opening remarks he said it all. (ON A TARGET OF KNOWN DIMENSIONS)
And of coarse the (target) will most likely also be at a KNOWN DISTANCE, like say 1000 yds.
So in actuality its showing you how to get the bullet from point A to point B on a (target) by using the reticle.
At least thats where the video was when i shut it down.
Listen, anybody who wants to take the very few days they (might) get each year hunting, and rely on this type B S is just fine with me.
Take it to the bank that as for (hunting) thats just what it is, B S.
My offer remains open for anybody really interested in finding out for them selves first hand.
We can run thru some (virtual) hunting scenarios while wearing t shirts.
As for dialing MS50, most experienced hunters wont be dialing for follow up shots unless it was a wide margin miss or theres been a significent distance change between shots.
And even that might vary depending on the distance involved or the possibility of a tree branch stepping into the bullet path.
Problem here to a large degree is that (theory) is being used in an attempt to overcome the lack of on the job experience.
Look ignore everything ive said, most will anyway. Call Euro Optics who sell only the best of optics. Ask to talk with Jason Baney who runs the sales dept.
He also runs the 6 BR website. Tell him your interested in starting long range shooting/hunting and your interested in obtaining a scope
with a reticle you can both shoot well and range game with also. They sell Vortex also and nobody would be more knowledgable than he would be
to discuss this with. Including the guy in the video.

BarrelNuts, Driftwood would be about a 5 hr drive from the Philly airport. Pittsburg would be about 1 1/2 hrs closer.
If you can arrainge some time you would be welcome to come. I would simply show you the various equiptment we use and how we use it.
Then you can use it and judge for yourself. I will make one prediction, within a few hours you will change your mind pertaining to what
you now know or think you know about long range hunting. And you will do that all on your own with no preaching or teaching on my part.
If you can shoot a one inch group you will hit 1000 yd rocks with a gun you never shot before and laugh over how easy it was.
I will hand you a gun and have you hit rocks first shot without touching the scope. And its about a 30 year old scope. Again, you will do it not me.
How about offhand, are you ready for that?




Bring your scope, i'll furnish everything else including the beverages.

I'm not arguing that using a range finder isn't BETTER and like I said earlier if you know the width/height of a target you can estimate range using a reticle that is properly set up. Its not an exact number however in the absence of a range finder its better than making a WAG. With regards to hunting... my definition of long range when taking shots at something living that I run the risk of severely maiming by my goof up is 300 yards currently; and that is if the conditions are suitable. For hunting purposes I don't worry about ranging a target with anything as I'm pretty good at eyeball estimating out to that distance and I have marking flags every 50 yards out to 300. Hunting rifle is zeroed at 200... at 300 its 6" below POA... minor hold adjustment and it works.

What you said regarding "Theory" is simply not true however... its math. I'm not saying your method doesn't work better; I don't even know what that method is... my point is simply that using reticles that have a known subtend in either MOA or MIL (either in FFP or at the proper magnification for a SFP reticle) against a target that is a known size (or, in the case of hunting known average like the shoulder height of a deer mentioned earlier; or in combat the average width of a human torso...) you can use a fairly simple mathematical formula to estimate the range to that target. Close enough for scout sniper teams to score hits using this method (mil based reticles in both military rifle scopes and spotting scopes for many years) rapidly under duress before range finders were used/available. MOA and Mils are nothing more than a measure of angle... using them to estimate range is nothing more than basic geometry applied to the real world. Just like anything else, imperfect input gives imperfect results; if you are using an "average" as mentioned before the range estimate is not going to be as accurate as if you were shooting at a 12" gong. With your example of shooting rocks there is no real way to estimate since you have no way of approximating the target size. So as I said... not arguing that your method isn't better, my point is that range estimation using a reticle isn't just a theory; its math. The extension of applying it to dialing a dope to shoot with is a whole 'nother can of worms altogether... one I am less versed in than the mathematical application of angles/geometry unfortunately; but working on it ;)

[BarrelNuts]

Also... forgot to mention (and feel free to be jealous) the "few days" we get hunting here in SC is about 3 1/2 months of rifle season with extremely liberal bag limits. Granted the size of a deer here is rather small compared to what is seen in PA. In any case I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and be argumentative; sorry if I sounded/came across like a dick.
Also, just looked at the ole mapquest... you are maybe an hour away from my family in center county; the possibility of a good ole fashioned ammo dump may actually be on the table although after spending 2 weeks in the Mojave I'll probably be ready for home and you probably wouldn't be able to handle my stench lol

[yobuck]

Snipers have been making fantastic shots since the cival war, maybe even earlier.
But there have no doubt also been lots of fantastic misses. We somehow only hear about hits when discussing this stuff.
If you read Chris Kyles book you would realize his numbers were as a result of lots of high percentage shots.
In his own words, the longest shot was just b s luck. And thats not taking any well deserved credit away from the man.
What is possible to do, and what is likely the result, is the real issue to my mind at least.
Fact is most of us mere humans arent capable of doing the things your suggesting in a hunting situation or a sniper situation either.
Remember, some really cool guys have been known to empty their gun without firing a shot when a deer walked up to them.
By the time the very few pinheads that are capable get it figured out, guess what? The deer is long gone and game over till next time.
And im sorry to say youve proven with your own words my statement about theory replacing actual knowledge via on the job training.
Im aware of the legnth of the seasons in some of the southern states. But the legnth of the season dosent always dictate how much average joe gets to hunt, or even if he gets to hunt.
Center county would have some good places to shoot some long distances. Im sure your family would be aware of some. Dont forget your calculator lol.

[BarrelNuts]

C.C. does have some pretty good spots to shoot some hefty yardage; lots of open fields with good terrain to act as a backstop if you can find someone willing to let you use it. Summers when I was a kid were often spent at my grandfather's house shooting ground hogs for him and a few of the neighboring Amish. I had free range of three farms and an two months of nothing but time on my hand. Best part was I got paid $5 a head... spent many an hour sitting on top of hay bales with a .222 waiting for ole Phil to come out; whenever he did he wasn't too worried about shadows anymore ;)

I will concede your point about the average joe and season length... I'm very fortunate to have, as us southerners say, "married into land". A few minutes walk can put me in my choice of about 8 stands/blinds and I'm fortunate enough to work a job that allows me a lot of flexibility. I hunt probably 30 to 40 times a year and it is rare for me to not see a few deer when out. I, like you mentioned, am the exception though and I know a lot of guys who are "hunters" that end up asking if they can raid my freezer at the end of the season.

With regards to the original point... just like anything else you have to practice and use/know your equipment. Using mils to range a target has been used for a long time; in fact it is still taught as the base-line method in military circles (personal experience with this started when learning to call in artillery; binos with a mil reticle spotting say, a T-72) as an effective method of range estimation. Again, I'm not saying that using more accurate tools like a range finder isn't better; I'm just saying that IF you have a target of known size you can use either a mil or moa based reticle (given the subtends on the reticle are actually accurate... which is another story altogether) to approximate the range to your target. Again it is not exact and takes effort to learn; but like most shooting skills if you do it enough its becomes "easy". Most of the guys who shoot "sniper competitions" without a spotter where they have to move from position to position and are shooting steel at unknown distances use this method. After enough rounds downrange they get to where they can use the reticle to "measure" the target and know without having to do the math what approximate range they are shooting then use the same reticle to hold over rather than dial the range. Then again, these aren't the aforementioned "average joes" either and they practice their system religiously. Like I said its not as accurate as using a range finder; however it has been used effectively for a long time.