loading by volume...

[chukarmandoo]

your tread just kinda died...what were your results with the test loads you had?

Yes it did. I didn't feel that I was doing things right. I continued to think that my charges were not what they should be so I would set my PPM to the book weights in grains.
After doing load workup and ending up near max I changed lot# and got extreme spike in pressure and lowered my charge weight thus lowering my volume. I wasn't thinking as clear nor did I have enough knowledge to realize what I was doing to post anymore on that thread.

Now after a lot of studying I feel I can start my load development again and use my PPM without the weighing the powder except to check VMD.

[chukarmandoo]

I have two PPM's and when I set them up for Rutumbo the volume didn't match the weight. I then used other powders and the VMD came out really close. So now I believe that the Retumbo is quite different and maybe on the higher side of the specs. It seems if I go by published VMD I would have to add more powder to the weight (over a grain).

I am throwing very consistent charges ( using the manufactures procedure to the tee). One smooth motion up and down!

[chukarmandoo]

OK. Not to muddy the water here but let me ask a question. I have been reading and watching the pros and cons of measuring powder and I have come to the conclusion that one way is no better than another? If we weigh the charge and it is lighter than or heavier than what it should be per lot how do we know? Now if we measure by volume how do we know each charge is the same? So now if we take the VMD of a certain powder isn't that the only way to no for sure when we change lot #'s of powder how much it is different than the last lot of powder we used? But with volume it, in theory, should always be the same?

Also, I would like to add, I've noticed that people are adjusting the PPM to the weight, which defeats the "absolute" of VMD. No?

[Pet-Rock]

OK. Not to muddy the water here but let me ask a question. I have been reading and watching the pros and cons of measuring powder and I have come to the conclusion that one way is no better than another? If we weigh the charge and it is lighter than or heavier than what it should be per lot how do we know? Now if we measure by volume how do we know each charge is the same? So now if we take the VMD of a certain powder isn't that the only way to no for sure when we change lot #'s of powder how much it is different than the last lot of powder we used? But with volume it, in theory, should always be the same?

This is a quote from the first page of the thread by darkerr:


I think you missed a point. the number 0.07916667 is NOT something you should use, that was from an example only!!
You have to do the VMD for yourself.
As far as rounding-off. I would say, that it depends on how exact you want to make the comparison. If you would normally weigh to 0.1 of a grain, then you don't round to the nearest grain, so don't round the decimal that short when doing volume.

When doing my VMD's with my measure, I choose something close. Again, this is only an example; and the tie to weight is only a reference, not a direct tie.
For my 308 or Creedmoor, I take the VMD around 3.8cc; because that give a weight that is relatively close to what I would charge with. If the 308 case takes 35-45gr of any powder, which would ROUGHLY translate to the 3.8cc range. Don't do a VMD calc at 1.0 cc. While my PPM is *Supposed* to be calibrated in actual CC's, I don't expect a perfect calibration; it is only a $10 tool after all.

I had a feeling this would be the case. Just as you must slightly tweak your charge weights when you change lot #'s, so to must you re-calc your VMD. Please correct me if I am wrong on this front.

[chukarmandoo]

This is where I have a problem. I think the VMD of a powder can only be worked up by the manufacture and only changed by them because they have developed a base over a period of time that reflects a solid average. Lee will not send you a VMD. They will only publish what the powder companies publish.

[cm12setx]

CALCULATING YOUR OWN LOAD DENSITIES


If you do not own software that will calculate load densities there is a manual method that will work. First it is necessary to determine the powder capacity of the cartridge. To do this, file a small notch inside the mouth of a fired but not decapped case so it extends from the rim of the case to a point just beneath the bullet's base when it is seated. Weigh the case and bullet. Fill the case with water and carefully seat the bullet while displacing water out the notch filed in the mouth. Weigh the water filled case and bullet again. The difference in weights is the powder capacity of the cartridge in grains of water.


Next, you must know the bulk density of the powder you are using. Some powder companies publish bulk densities, others force you to find the bulk density yourself. ​The bulk density of powder is most commonly expressed as grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc). Since the weight of one cc of water is nearly always 1 gram, a bulk density of 0.970 g/cc means the powder is 97% as dense as water. Bulk density is therefore also the powder's weight in any volume divided by the weight of water filling the same volume. To find the bulk density for a powder first weigh a container (large as practical for your reloading scale) to determine its weight. Then weigh it filled to the top with powder. Fill the empty container with water and weigh it again. Divide the weight of powder the container will hold by the weight of water it will hold. The result (1.000 or less) is the bulk density of the powder.


To finish the calculation use these formulae: Cartridge Cap. in gr. of H20 * Powder's Bulk Density = Cartridge's Powder Capacity Powder Charge in gr. / Cartridge's Powder Capacity = Load Density


The Sierra load manu is ideally suited for load density analysis because powder charges are arranged under an estimated velocity column. Select a velocity column that is close to what you hope to achieve and calculate the load densities using the indicated powder charges.

pulled from here. https://www.shootingsoftware.com/loadens.htm

I had just found this. And hope it helped.
The second paragraph.

I also found this.
Determine a VMD on your own


Using any setting on your powder measure (preferably a whole number), drop a charge of the powder you wish to determine the VMD for. Weigh the charge. Divide the measure setting you used to drop the charge by the weight of the charge. The result is the volume (cc) of a single grain of powder (VMD)


CC setting (powder measure setting)
--------------------------------------- = VMD (volume in cc's for 1 grain)
Weight of the sample.

but if you do this would you want to do it few times to get a average?
from. http://www.titanreloading.com/powder-handling/vmd-explanation

[chukarmandoo]

cm12setx. That helped me. Thanks. I had suspicions that my powder was denser than the last lot I used. Book says .0721 and it figured out to be .0740.

[LongRange]

FIRST...MODS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO MOVE THIS TO AT THE RANGE IF YOU'D LIKE AS ITS GOING TO TURN INTO THAT NOW.

ok so i got this done this morning and to be perfectly honest i REALLY wasnt expecting these results...loading by volume has at this point peaked my interest enough that im going to get a little more serious about the testing with it...this is going to kinda be a two part thing here as i was using some peterson brass i bought about a month ago...its similar to lapua in weight and internal capacity...its was fully prep'd and virgin when loaded for this test...24pcs are within .4g internal capacity and one piece was .9g different ill re-check it all latter.

the test was shot like an OCW but we will call it an OCBV(optimal charge by volume)so i dont get darkker all fired up LOL...i loaded 7 rounds at the lowest volume to get my zero back as i just put my shilen back on my long action last monday...it took 2 rounds to zero(which was 5moa left and 3 moa high off zero)and 2 to verify...i cleaned the barrel to metal before i pulled it to play with that 260AI but i ran a few patched through to make sure it was clean.

i used cm12setx info above to find the VMD of the powder im using(thanks for posting that info cm12setx it was helpful)but the numbers were off but i used them...the lee numbers were a little closer but still not on the money.
i weighed every throw but regardless of weight i dumped the charge in the case as this isnt about weight but i wanted a base line to go off so id know where things were...im not going to type out the numbers as i just wrote them on the target and i dont like typing.

long action 110 BA 28" shilen select match(260rem)with 680 rounds through it at the start of this test
H4831sc..CCI BR2..fully prep'd virgin peterson brass..142g SMK seated .030 off the lands

the brass...i think the box it what cost so much...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1454852241.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1454852241.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1454852257.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1454852257.jpg.html)

the rifle...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684620.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684620.jpg.html)

full target....

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684534.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684534.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684546.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684546.jpg.html)


http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684548.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684548.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684551.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684551.jpg.html)

this one didnt make me real happy...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684556.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684556.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684578.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684578.jpg.html)

same as #4..

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684583.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684583.jpg.html)

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684587.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1456684587.jpg.html)

now i didnt chrony any of these and now wish i had but like i said above i just wasnt expecting this....im going to shoot this same test next sunday but im going to do a little more research and get my numbers a little more in line for the next test.

[chukarmandoo]

LR, Some good info. 3.7 grains spread and POI almost the same. Was wondering if your VMD was higher or lower than Lee's.
I shot 50 rounds yesterday (to fire form new brass). While my targets didn't look near as good as yours I did see a big difference in speed (only checked 11 rounds). All loads were thrown and I only did initial weighing to check my VMD as my lot of powder seems to be +3%. Know that my brass is formed I will start load development using only cc's.
Your method seems to be very good as you can see actual weight vs volume. A ladder test will probably be the true test in the end?

[m12lrs]

LR, Some good info. 3.7 grains spread and POI almost the same. Was wondering if your VMD was higher or lower than Lee's.
I shot 50 rounds yesterday (to fire form new brass). While my targets didn't look near as good as yours I did see a big difference in speed (only checked 11 rounds). All loads were thrown and I only did initial weighing to check my VMD as my lot of powder seems to be +3%. Know that my brass is formed I will start load development using only cc's.
Your method seems to be very good as you can see actual weight vs volume. A ladder test will probably be the true test in the end?

A ladder test will probably be the true test in the end

no doubt! I am eagerly awaiting those results

how do SD's and ES look

am I to assume with this method using a powder measure to throw charges is accurate enough?

[darkker]

The only caution I would offer about ES/SD, comes from a pair of 204's.
With a particular load of CFE223 in 2 different rifles, the ES is 104-ish. The accuracy @ 100 yards shows that it doesn't matter. I haven't taken it beyond 150 on paper, so who knows; but for the application it doesn't seem to be a hinderance.

[LongRange]

LR, Some good info. 3.7 grains spread and POI almost the same. Was wondering if your VMD was higher or lower than Lee's.
I shot 50 rounds yesterday (to fire form new brass). While my targets didn't look near as good as yours I did see a big difference in speed (only checked 11 rounds). All loads were thrown and I only did initial weighing to check my VMD as my lot of powder seems to be +3%. Know that my brass is formed I will start load development using only cc's.
Your method seems to be very good as you can see actual weight vs volume. A ladder test will probably be the true test in the end?

both lee and the info m12 posted left most of my target charge weights low...im going to play with the numbers a little and get them closer for the next test and i also think that the test results may be a little better with formed brass...i will chrony all rounds in the next test to see where the ESs are.


A ladder test will probably be the true test in the end

no doubt! I am eagerly awaiting those results

how do SD's and ES look

am I to assume with this method using a powder measure to throw charges is accurate enough?

still unsure about that but for the spreads and using virgin brass things look pretty good...when i find a load by/with volume ill shoot some groups at 500yds and see how they hold up..i have a match next saturday and sunday its supposed to rain so this may end up waiting until the weekend of the 12th.

[chukarmandoo]

The only caution I would offer about ES/SD, comes from a pair of 204's.
With a particular load of CFE223 in 2 different rifles, the ES is 104-ish. The accuracy @ 100 yards shows that it doesn't matter. I haven't taken it beyond 150 on paper, so who knows; but for the application it doesn't seem to be a hinderance.

Yeah, I really didn't want to say what the ES/SD was as I was only fire forming new brass. This what I got for the last 11 rounds. 90/26. If I cheated and dropped the high and the low I got 34/10. These were very light loads and there was a lot of room left in the cases. Don't know?:noidea:I only checked the weight at the start till I was satisfied I was getting good drops then I loaded all 50 and threw some charges afterwords and they were still good.

[chukarmandoo]

"but for the spreads and using virgin brass things look pretty good"

That's what I thought when I seen your targets LR! And good luck at the match!

[LongRange]

so im still playing around with this but with comp season,my new build and work i havent had much time to put into this but last weekend i loaded up 100 rounds to fire form for my new rifle so that when its ready i can go right into break in and load development without having to fire form.

i loaded up 100 rounds by volume...i set the PPM to drop 44.5g of H4831sc and weighed 5 drops just to make sure where i was and then just dropped 100 charges right from the PPM into the cases and fired them at 100yds in 20 shot groups...this peaks my interest even more because of the time savings and the results...ill get back to this seriously after my new build is up and running but heres the target from last weekend....

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1457310292.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1457310292.jpg.html)

[LongRange]

almost forgot....i havent messed with the perterson brass after i fire formed it its just been sitting on my bench...i did most of the prep work to it before fire forming minus uniforming most of the primer pockets because they PPs were so tight that my PP uni-former was REAL tight going into the pockets of the virgin brass so i figured after fire forming they would loosen up just a little...wrong...they are still VERY tight which is a good thing and makes me think this is going to be some tough brass,

i also tumbled this brass,FL sized and trimmed as im going out today to play with some 130g berger hybrids so i have an idea of starting points and velocities for my new build as these are the bullets i plan to shoot in it.
this brass was trimmed and neck turned at the same time as the 100 pieces of lapua i fire formed above so id have something to base the brass stretch,sizing and PPs off of.
the first thing i noticed was when sizing the peterson brass took a little more effort to size...next when finishing uni-forming the PPs the pockets were still very tight and when trimming the heads are noticeable smaller(not sure what that means)and they stretched much less then the lapua as when i trimmed them not much came off compared to the lapua...

note the lock handle on the trimmer...this is a piece of lapua....

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1457787198.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1457787198.jpg.html)

this is a piece of the perterson brass...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1457784762.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1457784762.jpg.html)

trimmed brass...peterson on the left lapua on the right...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff515/LTT-/Mobile%20Uploads/1457786847.jpg (http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/LTT-/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1457786847.jpg.html)

im going to run the pressures up today and see how this brass holds up...im looking for 2950 in the new rifle but the barrel is going to be 4" shorter than what im shooting today.

[FW Conch]

Well. Thanks to your efforts "LR", I am encouraged to believe I can achieve all the accuracy I need loading by volume. I even have thoughts of digging out the Lee Loader and see just how good I can get at "dipping and throwing". It sure would make life a lot simpler. And with my shooting time so limited, I don't need to be wasting any of it. Of course, I would need to replace the OCD time, trickling/nitpicking etc., with basket weaving or something equally stimulating :-). In May I will have the opportunity to shoot to my hearts content for a couple of weeks. I have always wanted to shoot a 5 round group out of the same case with 5 identical pills to see what kind of accuracy that produced. This would of course require loading at the range, which is greatly simplified using the Lee Loader. In an effort to eliminate shooting variables, I have built a "shooting platform" out of scrap lumber that holds the barreled action in a Whidden V Block that I haven't installed yet in a stock. I can make the platform as heavy as I want by adding weight. "OCD" in a different form :-). Anyway, this should help me shoot the smallest groups I have ever shot, and more importantly, prove the capabilities of the barreled action, with a minimum of outside influences.

Thanks again "LR", I will be following your efforts on this subject where ever it leads us :-) ... Jim

[gbflyer]

Much less scientific than you fellas. When I shot BR 20 some odd years ago we never weighed a charge. 22 and 6mm PPC, filled case halfway up the neck with H322 with powder measure (I have a modified Redding BR30). Of course we only shot to 300 and not concerned about hitting the 10 ring. I don't recall ever seeing a scale at a match. Don't compete today, but still use the powder measure.

[LongRange]

Well. Thanks to your efforts "LR", I am encouraged to believe I can achieve all the accuracy I need loading by volume. I even have thoughts of digging out the Lee Loader and see just how good I can get at "dipping and throwing". It sure would make life a lot simpler. And with my shooting time so limited, I don't need to be wasting any of it. Of course, I would need to replace the OCD time, trickling/nitpicking etc., with basket weaving or something equally stimulating :-). In May I will have the opportunity to shoot to my hearts content for a couple of weeks. I have always wanted to shoot a 5 round group out of the same case with 5 identical pills to see what kind of accuracy that produced. This would of course require loading at the range, which is greatly simplified using the Lee Loader. In an effort to eliminate shooting variables, I have built a "shooting platform" out of scrap lumber that holds the barreled action in a Whidden V Block that I haven't installed yet in a stock. I can make the platform as heavy as I want by adding weight. "OCD" in a different form :-). Anyway, this should help me shoot the smallest groups I have ever shot, and more importantly, prove the capabilities of the barreled action, with a minimum of outside influences.

Thanks again "LR", I will be following your efforts on this subject where ever it leads us :-) ... Jim

LOL....im not sure ill be sticking to the loading by volume thing yet as i weigh all of my charges and am pretty anal about it....loading by volume will have to prove itself to me over several trips and shooting at distance.
it would save a LOT of time and like you that may become a problem as ill have more time for my mind to...well im not sure...ill just have more time LOL...if i do end up sticking with it i know that i will buy a high end powder measure...ive heard from a lot of ppl that the high end units are not much more accurate than the less expensive units but it will look cool in the back ground when i post pictures if nothing else.

i will add to this as i have time...ive got a very accurate shilen barrel that need to be shot out!!

[LongRange]

Much less scientific than you fellas. When I shot BR 20 some odd years ago we never weighed a charge. 22 and 6mm PPC, filled case halfway up the neck with H322 with powder measure (I have a modified Redding BR30). Of course we only shot to 300 and not concerned about hitting the 10 ring. I don't recall ever seeing a scale at a match. Don't compete today, but still use the powder measure.

curious gb...where you guys using ball or stick powders?