Need some help: 338 LM

[doctnj]

I normally anneal after every trip to the range. Today will be the first time I shoot cases that didnt get annealed. Will be interesting to see the difference. I was pushed for time yesterday and just skipped that step as well as dumping them into the ultrasonic to clean the inside. I had to turn around two calibers to go out again today. Rushing is never good, read hall of shame.

On the 338 LM, mine took 200 + rounds fired through it before it tightened up. It is however a factory barrel. For quite some time I was not impressed with the accuracy. Now I know exactly where the cold bore shot will go nearly every time. It shoots extremely well and I love shooting it because you get the "giggle factor" feeling like you are shooting a "real" gun. At the present time its all torn down and sent off to SSS for action and trigger job so who knows how it will operate when it returns. There 3 to 4 week estimate is now over 2 months. But there was a death in the family. Very sad.

[hafejd30]

Doc, if you have a chrony with you I'd be interested in the ES between the annealed vs non annealed ones. Being that yours if once fired after annealing. Only if your already using the chrony tho. Don't go out of the way if your not

[doctnj]

I am absolutely going to be measuring MV today with magneto speed.

[doctnj]

I ran over magneto speed and I lost an average of 25 fps by not annealing. I will have to attribute it to that as its the only thing I didnt do that I normally
always do between each shoot. I guess the resized brass had some spring back and didnt hold the bullet as hard causing the pressure and speed to drop off slightly.

[hafejd30]

Awesome. Thank you. Anybody who's able to see this can gain some knowledge from it as well. There's a lot of people who don't have experience in this and I think it will help them. I know myself I will anneal the way I do every time. But have never seen actual experience using several times fired brass in precision rifles that I shoot

[doctnj]

One more discovery. One other parameter that I tested that I put in play here also was compressing the powder/ deeper bullet seat and its effects on velocity. I originally did a load work up 10 thou off the lands and kept seating deeper until the round fed good out of mag. That left me with 80 thou jump. It was extremely accurate and showed no signs of pressure but today I measured it. This one also went down. It was a pretty hot and slightly over filled load so I wanted to know what was going on with it. I had read that deeper bullet seat equaled more pressure. I also heard that since the jump was greater that there was more space for the pressure to dissipate. Well I proved the second theory to be correct. That speed also went down slightly and not up as I expected. I only had 3 left from the previous batch that had been annealed last weekend so I only got to measure three of them but they all three were down from back when I loaded them pretty close to the lands.

just fyi.

[hafejd30]

I have found that as well. My pressure/velocity go up as I approach the lands

[doctnj]

The main reason I expected an increase in pressure is that the round was already loaded above book max. Book max for this powder and bullet showed 101 percent fill so it went to reason that slightly deeper seating would lead to more compression and there fore greater pressure. Although not a perfect science, I will have to measure the coal of my new seat depth and compare to the coal in the book as that is the only measurement they give for length.

One theory behind loss of velocity is over compression. This produces more unburnt powder allowing the bullet to have already left the case before the powder closest to the bullet ignites. This thought combined with more space to dissipate pressure prior to lands engagement could be the reason an over compressed round shows a decrease in MV.

You have to know that I read these theories before I compressed my loads to this degree. I wanted to know what I was getting into before I jumped in and did it. I was concerned that the theory was dead wrong. Luckily it was not. There is however a point at which compression will indeed cause super increased elevation in pressure so its important to measure velocities to determine that this point is not passed. This is more true with slow powders and all bets are off with pistol or fast powders. Over compression of those powders is simply not safe. I may be wasting powder each time I fire, I dont know, what I do know is I like the accuracy of this round.

This is a copy paste from another board.

Don't know about pistol calibers, but here is some .223 data:

AR Service Rifle: 20" / 1:7.7 twist Krieger / Wylde chamber / 82 Berger's / tested June 10, 2011

The first five test loads jump .020"+- to the lands. The second five test loads are magazine length, .180" shorter than the first ones. As can be seen, the magazine length loads are much slower than the longer ones (100+- fps). The ejector marks began showing up at 2700+- fps in both load-lengths.

grains....FPS
23.25....2674
23.50....2713 ejector marks
23.75....2725 ejector marks
24.00....2768 ejector marks
24.25....2800 2 blown primers, .385" group

grains FPS
23.25....2592
23.50....2614
23.75....2639
24.00....2660
24.25....2688 very slight ejector marks

just one of several "studies" I read.

[yobuck]

I can introduce you to people whove been record holding 1000 yd shooters and never owned a chronagraph or ever annealed a case.
That's not to say I'm encouraging not doing this, but there are many things that lead to good accuracy.
They begin with good techniques and shooting, and the more we do the better we get. That's especially true with the heavy hitters.
For the most part, annealing has become popular only very recently. How important it is, and how often it should be done is something that will no doubt ever be totally resolved.
I'm of the opinion that average Joe shooter/hunter need worry more about many things other than annealing cases.
There comes a point where we need to determine what we really need to get the results we need to be successful
in what we wish to do, and then go do it.

[doctnj]

I'm sure you a right about that in the past but I am willing to bet they mostly all do now. That aside, I like the idea of building the exact same bullet week after week. If I do that then have bad results like last weekend. It helps me look at me! With good advice from fellow shooters, I worked on my form all week and did much better. I got to feel first hand how many incorrect muscle groups can come into play causing errant shots. Sorry about the hijack

[doctnj]

back on topic of annealing. Here is a nice study.

Originally posted this in SnipersHide, but thought you guys may have some valuable insight/feedback. Thanks!

Let me preface this topic: I've read numerous posts, watched countless videos and many days tinkering with loads by charge and COAL. However, with regard to annealing, I've not yet encountered anything on the web that provides quantitative analysis of before and after results annealing with respect to accuracy and precision of groups. I'm sure it's available SOMEWHERE but haven't stumbled across yet... <br />
<br />
I inadvertently created the opportunity to test the consistency and accuracy of annealed brass vs. non-annealed and effects COAL (Cartridge OverAll Length, for those that aren't familiar), simultaneously under "ideal" conditions. I decided to begin annealing brass for first time as I recently purchased several hundred Lapua cases but they were on there 5th fire for the season and began to see groups open up without explanation. After annealing nearly 400 cases, I realized that I had 20 NON-annealed 5th fire cartridges remaining from the last batch. Perfect opportunity to test both variables (COAL and Annealed once fired brass) against a control group of at handloads from the prior batch. <br />
<br />
Below follows my procedure:<br />
- CONTROL GROUP: (10) rounds Sierra 2156c Palma 155gr with 45.2gr IMR4064 seated .020 from lands. This is the result of many rounds of testing various lengths and charges; it normally produces .6 to 1.2 MOA groups under good conditions (avg about .8 MOA over last 150 rounds). Brass was on 5th fire and was trimmed to 2.005" on 4th fire. Ammo had been loaded for approximately 3 weeks before today's test. The last rounds fired at 100yds averaged .75" only two weeks prior. This brass has only been neck sized on Lee Classic Single Stage since new. FWIW, I've NEVER fired consistent sub-half MOA groups with this load or rifle under any conditions; certainly close and had a few 1/2 minute groups on several occasions but average over life of rifle has been .85" with this load. <br />
<br />
- VARIABLE #1 - COAL REDUCED TO MAG LENGTH 2.815" (10) rounds of above (5th fire Lapua, 2156c, 45.2gr IMR 4064) but with bullets reseated to new COAL. <br />
- VARIABLE #2 - ANNEALED CASES - all ammo loaded to same spec with same process as CONTROL group but with only variable being newly annealed cases. These cases would now be smelled for first time since purchase and losing them 5 times.<br />
-VARIABLE #3 - BULLET to CASE "WELDING" - The exact term for this phenomena is escaping me, but I've read on a few occasions that reloading bullets and letting them sit is a bad practice as the copper jacket and case mouth can essentially bond more tightly over time, increasing variations in velocity due to inconsistent neck tension. This test does not truly have a control group as I didn't have newly seated, non-annealed CONTROL cases available. So the benchmark for this test is simply prior data over the last 150 rounds (spread over past 2-3 reload cycles and accumulated data from 600+ rounds with this load). Basically, I'm using the CONTROL Group as a test variable by comparing it to prior known data averages across the life of the rifle with this specific load which developed and shot over 600 rounds with this load since rifle was new. <br />
<br />
So here are the results of the test. First picture is of the test target: http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/a7u9a2up.jpg<br />
<br />
This is picture of a final group shot after 15-20min cool down for vertical tracking test; 3-shot group. <br />
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/a7eve7uh.jpg<br />
<br />
<br />
SUMMARY of Test:<br />
<br />
-VARIABLE #1 - COAL REDUCED TO MAG LENGTH 2.815" No surprises here... Just confirmation that the COAL (specifically bullet jump) affects accuracy by a considerable margin. I can post prior data groups for comparison if Anyone is interested but frankly, I think most hand loaders find out quickly that most barrels shoot well loaded closer to the lands. <br />
CONCLUSION: To use your magazine length ammo and shoot accurately, either find a bullet with long bearing surface (I've used 155 Scenars with great success) and short tip OR make sure your next barrel will be reamed to allow mag length bullets to seat closer to lands. <br />
<br />
-VARIABLE #2 - ANNEALED CASES. This is the real shocker and frankly I had to keep shooting groups to confirm what I was seeing. I hypothesized that annealing would simply allow easier sizing and prolong case life. I did not expect any differences in accuracy as the idea of uniform neck tension seems easy to accomplish with neck sizing operations. The actual accuracy/precision improvements are (in my case) MASSIVE: over 60% improvement over my long established average of .8" with this rifle and load (groups .179", .344, .383", and .494" with avg .350" vs .8" for prior data). <br />
CONCLUSION: Anneal more often and if you don't, you may consider running test this with your 3rd,4th or 5th cycle brass to see if it restores or even added any accuracy to your load. Took a bit of time to anneal (maybe 2hours for nearly 400 cases including all extra setup and cooling etc.) perhaps the single biggest improvement in my groups other than developing the load in the first place. <br />
<br />
-VARIABLE #3 - BULLET to CASE "WELDING" - this concept didn't seem to ring with me however, having the group sizes from the first two days after pressing bullets (.6-.85") vs the groups above (1"-1.5") there certainly seems to be some truth to this phenomenon. This may be in part due to the increasing hardness of the neck but I can't truly draw direct conclusion without a better control group to compare (I.e. Newly loaded 5th fire non-annealed brass with same charge and COAL).<br />
<br />
Here a few pictures the original control batch from two weeks prior; 100 rounds were loaded, with 50 at the 45.2 charge and and I believe I pushed around (9) 5-shot groups of different weights through the bore. I was re-testing various weight charges under the 2156c and simply confirm for fit for rifle: <br />
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/ateqejep.jpg<br />
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/na2agara.jpg<br />
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/qy7u9ude.jpg<br />
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/11/y5ezazun.jpg<br />
<br />
CONCLUSION: Load and shoot your rounds as close together as possible. If not possible, perhaps seat bullets slightly long and reseat to final depth with a day or two prior to firing. <br />
<br />
If you can see anything that I missed or draw different conclusions than I did, please reply. I am curious if anyone else has had similar experience before/after annealing multiple-fire cycles. <br />
<br />
Thanks and looking forward to your comments/replies!<br />
<br />
Edited: Thanks to SWThomas for feedback; changed wording for clarity and added some prior data and photos.<br/>

[yobuck]

200 cases fired 5 times fired equals 1000 rounds fired. More than average Joe will shoot in an entire lifetime with any one of his guns, let alone a 338.
Trying to improve upon 1/2 minit of angle groups isn't something very many people would concern themselves with anyway.
For those that do that's fine, but realisticly speaking its not something most of us would worry about and that's my point.
Lapua cases are annealed when purchased. Three firings would seem to me a logical time to consider annealing again.
But the question also arises as to the total life expextancy of a 338 lapua case when loaded for peak long range performance.
I personaly think annealing might help with case life and especially with reformed cases for wildcat cartridges.
But aside from that I don't think many of us can measure any other improvments it might offer.

[hafejd30]

200 cases fired 5 times fired equals 1000 rounds fired. More than average Joe will shoot in an entire lifetime with any one of his guns, let alone a 338.
Trying to improve upon 1/2 minit of angle groups isn't something very many people would concern themselves with anyway.
For those that do that's fine, but realisticly speaking its not something most of us would worry about and that's my point.
Lapua cases are annealed when purchased. Three firings would seem to me a logical time to consider annealing again.
But the question also arises as to the total life expextancy of a 338 lapua case when loaded for peak long range performance.
I personaly think annealing might help with case life and especially with reformed cases for wildcat cartridges.
But aside from that I don't think many of us can measure any other improvments it might offer.

On that same note, most who take the time to anneal are not average joes. I shoot lots every year both target shooting and hunting. So "for me" this works best.

I will definitely agree that most people have no need to anneal, at least until after a couple firings. And that would be primarily to keep the necks from hardening and splitting.

I did perform a side by side comparison in my 308 with annealed Lapua cases. These rounds were loaded the same time with the same components as I wanted to know for sure if it was worth the bs. Both groups were 5 rounds shot at 300 yards on black paper so I could not see the bullet holes, the target backer is also black. The group of the annealed was 1.5" and the non annealed (with about 3-5 firings) was about 2".

The big advantage was the velocity spread. I believe it was 20 fps for annealed and 36 fps for non. I don't have the exact numbers in from of me but I know it was almost half the ES with annealed.

Now, in an average Joe situation, these rounds would all effectively hit a target of 1 moa (ex: 5" at 500 yards, all other factors aside). But on the non average joe side you would see effects at ranges of 1000-1200 yards etc with the velocity difference. I should note there was more vertical spread with the non annealed rounds as well. This is huge when you get to longer distances. For hunting and competitive shooting especially. I have taking a combined total of 22 whitetail deer and coyotes at ranges between 600-1121 yds (2 over 1000yds).

So for ME it's worth the effort. My opinion only applies to my shooting needs and that is all. Like I said the average joe, inside 500 yards is better to put time in behind the rifle rather than in the reloading room. I've done my time and have now moved into what I'd consider the next category of concerns in regards to precision shooting