What is a mil?

[LongRange]

OH it can and we all know this...well almost all...as Rob said its done all the time in the PRS matches...as long as you know the size of the target its just simple math.

[earl39]

Ok i have been watching this and i THINK what Yobuck is saying is you can't range unknown objects accurately. If you don't know the size you can't range it. You might get close but that is because you are guessing the size of the object you are ranging. And this has gone completely off track from the OP's question of what is a Mil. You guys are into how to use them now and you use them the same way you use MOA hash marks just the numbers in the math problem are different but if done correctly the answer is the same.

[Rob01]

Using average sizes for objects/dimensions can make the hitting a target more accurate without knowing the exact size of the target but yes it would be less accurate than knowing the exact size. That said if you don't know the range at all you don't know what to put on the scope so you can't take the shot anyways. A LRF is a much preferable way to get range over using the reticle but the skill of using a reticle works.

All that ranging stuff said, it's actually low on the list of the actual use of a reticle. Using it for hold overs and unders, wind holds and movers holds are used much more frequently than ranging especially with almost everyone having LRFs now. In that, having a FFP scope makes doing all those things easier as you don;t have to worry about what power you are on or having to be on a specific spot on the power knob and doing match to figure what the reticle is subtending on that power. With a FFP scope you just dial the power where it needs to be for you to have the proper FOV and clarity to take the shot and then use the reticle. Simplicity makes the job of hitting the target easier.

[foxx]

... And this has gone completely off track from the OP's question of what is a Mil. .

Yes, Earl, we are off track of that question, but for a good reason. The question itself reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the USE and APPLICATION of MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA scopes. Subsequent to that, the advantage of FFP over SFP is appreciated. Finally, once that is understood, the question of whether the oversized ( or undersized ) reticle is worth the problems associated with it to accomplish what it allows.

Once all is understood, a shooter can determine what is his preferred tool for his particular situation. I don't think there is a wrong answer, it just requires clear understanding of the tools and the shooter's needs/wants to make that decision.

To ME, the bottom line is that the MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA ffp scope is an EXCELLENT tool for practical/tactical shooting exercise, (make quick kill shots at various ranges), but not for precise shooting at various ranges. (hitting SMALL targets at various or known ranges).

[yobuck]

FIRST, id suggest everybody reread my responces, and (try) to soak in what I actually said, and not whats being implied.
Ill try to make it clearer by saying that Yes,yes, yes, if I were to compete in the type matches some here do, id own the best equiptment for doing that.
If that included a ffp scope with mil adjustments and reticle so be it, that's what id have.
But I don't shoot in those type matches and have no intention or desire to do so.
The dialing aspect of a ffp scope or a 2nd fp scope is the same, meaning no differences.
The only discernable difference then affecting a shooter, is the changing of reticle size as power is increased.
Which even our in house expert agrees, dosent matter if the power isn't changed, or with using say a fixed 12x scope.
Some obviously think that's a huge difference, and to them it might be, and some like me tend to yawn when its discussed.
Now Ill let you in on a dirty little secret. I had a ffp scope on my 30x378 for over 30 years, and only recently removed it in favor of a Nightforce.
A Bausch&Lomb balvar 6x24 varieable made in the 60s, a ffp scope made before many of you were born.
But I didn't own it because it was ffp, I owned it because it was a variable, and Unertles weren't.
And back then there weren't many others suitable for what we did with them.
If you go back to post #10, I jokingly tried to explain how to move a bullet from point A to point B.
Back when I went to school for this stuff that's how it was taught because there weren't any mill mill ffp scopes.
But 2+2 still equals 4 in my book, even though some obviously don't think it does.
As the old cliché goes its actually about as easy as rolling off a log, and anybody can do it with any scope with a dial.
MEANING, no need for mil mil ffp or any other freaking fp, FOR MOST APPLICATIONS,
which includes what I do with scopes and frankly most others.
I mean this whole thing is actually laughable.

As for Lonewolfs comments on I think post #28 regarding (his spotters being useless) or in any event no help to him in seeing his hit.
It appeared to me there was a guy laying beside him, no doubt looking thru a rifle scope.
And another sitting behind a spotting scope, but who appeared to be doing something other than spotting?
If I'm correct, then he didn't actually have an effective spotter.
But he did have what Darkker would describe as a (tall cotton) situation. lol
For the record, what I do by way of hunting, dosent require any special skills or ability, that anyone here dosent have.
Many of the deer we kill are taken by kids or others inexperienced in long shooting.
Those of us with the experience are the coaches and also the spotter.
But what we do does require, (at least where we are doing it,) is to be doing it in a certain way if you want the (best chance) at success.
In other words its sort of like shooting in certain type matches.
If Lonewolf or any others were to come here and shoot from the locations we shoot, he would very quickly reach that same conclusion.
I can (guarantee) he would leave with different opinions than he arrived with.
I can also guarantee his opinion on spotting would differ.


Rob01, you don't have to come to me, ill gladly meet you someplace convienant to you.
Someplace where you can show me how you can range various distances with your reticle.
Say targets like cows or horses in a very large pasture.
Or maybe a crow in a distant tree, and accurate enough to make hits.
Ill bring my rangefinder to confirm it.
Feel free to have someone take pictures of me handing you the $500 so you can post them here.

[foxx]

Okay, Yobuck, I can respect most of your comments in #45.

Where I take issue is this: WHY get on that stump whenever the topic of MILS comes up?

It seems akin to me saying, "It does not matter whether a .243 or .260 is a good deer rifle because the 30-06 is good enough for my purposes. That being the case, you needn't ask about them."

[Rob01]

Rob01, you don't have to come to me, ill gladly meet you someplace convienant to you.
Someplace where you can show me how you can range various distances with your reticle.
Say targets like cows or horses in a very large pasture.
Or maybe a crow in a distant tree, and accurate enough to make hits.
Ill bring my rangefinder to confirm it.
Feel free to have someone take pictures of me handing you the $500 so you can post them here.

No problem. If you want to learn how to do it you can just take our Precision Rifle 1 class, which runs $500 by coincidence, and we teach the use of the reticle and how to range. It's amazing as we have people come in who have been hunting and shooting for many years, have had guys with 30-40 years of hunting experience, and leave amazed at what they learn on how to employ a long range rifle. It all comes down to "you don't know what you don't know".

Here is a look at the areas I have ranged and shot targets in matches. Nice large open areas. Having a flatter shooting cartridge makes the odds of a first round hit higher as you can have a larger cushion. Usually knowing the target size I can get within 5-10 yards withing 700 yards and past that to around 20 yards. Not knowing the target size and using standard sizes for a horse, cow or crow will make it not as accurate, as I mentioned, and if you were making an ethical shot then you might not want to take an extremely long shot without a LRF but if the batteries die and you paid a lot of money for the hunt and can use the reticle to get you a decent range to target then you can take the shot. Ranging with the reticle is not the first line to figure target range but a tool in the tool box which is good to know how to employ.

ETA: here is a link to the ASC match page. You can see more pics. http://www.ascmatch.com/#!gallery/nxsth

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/ASC4_5-08_zps07fa240b.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/ASC4_5-08_zps07fa240b.jpg.html)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/0cbaa2b1.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/0cbaa2b1.jpg.html)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/118_1875.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/118_1875.jpg.html)

[foxx]

^^^Total waste of time and money. Michigan's terrain and the deer habits here don't call for 500 yard shots. Anyone wanting to learn such skills is just gullible and kidding themselves. ;)

[Rob01]

^^^Total waste of time and money. Michigan's terrain and the deer habits here don't call for 500 yard shots. Anyone wanting to learn such skills is just gullible and kidding themselves. ;)

http://www.funnycatsite.com/pictures/Big_Smiles.jpg

[yobuck]

No problem. If you want to learn how to do it you can just take our Precision Rifle 1 class, which runs $500 by coincidence, and we teach the use of the reticle and how to range. It's amazing as we have people come in who have been hunting and shooting for many years, have had guys with 30-40 years of hunting experience, and leave amazed at what they learn on how to employ a long range rifle. It all comes down to "you don't know what you don't know".

Here is a look at the areas I have ranged and shot targets in matches. Nice large open areas. Having a flatter shooting cartridge makes the odds of a first round hit higher as you can have a larger cushion. Usually knowing the target size I can get within 5-10 yards withing 700 yards and past that to around 20 yards. Not knowing the target size and using standard sizes for a horse, cow or crow will make it not as accurate, as I mentioned, and if you were making an ethical shot then you might not want to take an extremely long shot without a LRF but if the batteries die and you paid a lot of money for the hunt and can use the reticle to get you a decent range to target then you can take the shot. Ranging with the reticle is not the first line to figure target range but a tool in the tool box which is good to know how to employ.

ETA: here is a link to the ASC match page. You can see more pics. http://www.ascmatch.com/#!gallery/nxsth

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/ASC4_5-08_zps07fa240b.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/ASC4_5-08_zps07fa240b.jpg.html)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/0cbaa2b1.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/0cbaa2b1.jpg.html)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/Rob01/118_1875.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Rob01/media/118_1875.jpg.html)

Nice Rob, I'm guessing not far from where ill be for 6 months within the next couple weeks.
Id be glad to meet there and pick the targets id like you to range for me.
By the way, one nice buck in the rut and on the move chasing does around over there would have every one of those guys rethinking their shooting system. Because they wont have much success trying to shoot at him like that.
Rangefinder batteries usually last thru several seasons, and some of us have ones not needing batteries also.
How far would you like to see me range at that spot Rob and give you an accurate answer in less than a minit? Would say 3000 yds work? And look mom no batteries lol.
Seriously Rob if your serious about hunting spots like that let me know, and ill show you how its been done long before somebody showed me.
And its got little to do with guns or scopes or how well you think you can shoot.

[Rob01]

Nice Rob, I'm guessing not far from where ill be for 6 months within the next couple weeks.
Id be glad to meet there and pick the targets id like you to range for me.
By the way, one nice buck in the rut chasing does around over there would have every one of those guys rethinking their shooting system. but hey.

Can you explain the bold?

Not my range. Can't go shoot there anytime I want. Just an example that it's not on flat square range that it was being done.

[yobuck]

I guess I'm not getting what you mean by bold?
As for the range no problem, I can furnish that same type of environment.

[rjtfroggy]

52 post and the OP hasn't been here since #7. Think maybe you guys hijacked and carried on enough?

[Rob01]

I guess I'm not getting what you mean by bold?


The bold text in the post I quoted from your post:

"By the way, one nice buck in the rut chasing does around over there would have every one of those guys rethinking their shooting system. but hey."

[darkker]

52 post and the OP hasn't been here since #7. Think maybe you guys hijacked and carried on enough?


Probably just waiting for his stock, like he said he was; in post #7.

[yobuck]

Probably just waiting for his stock, like he said he was; in post #7.

I agree Darkker, is that a surprise? lol besides, he did get some good answers to his question.
Anyway cant some of us who don't build Savages or shoot matches have a little fun once in awhile also?
It hasent gotten vicious has it? Just boys being boys on a subject not all are interested in, and if that's a problem don't read it.
Go tip and weigh a few match bullets or something else really important.

[yobuck]

Rob, can you furnish the name of the club holding those matches and its location?
Its an excellent location, and id like to go there while their holding a match and observe.
Frankly I suspect its not a club that holds matches, but rather a shooting school. But ill await your answer on that.

[Rob01]

I already did in the post above. It's the ASC match in Seneca Rocks, WV. It's a match held on a piece of farm land and not a club or a school. Here is the link again http://www.ascmatch.com/

[upSLIDEdown]

I already did in the post above. It's the ASC match in Seneca Rocks, WV. It's a match held on a piece of farm land and not a club or a school. Here is the link again http://www.ascmatch.com/

I've got a few friends that shoot Allegheny. I'd love to be able to shoot it sometime.

[LoneWolf]

I've got a few friends that shoot Allegheny. I'd love to be able to shoot it sometime.
We should build a list of matches we would like to attend at some point and make a plan/timeline to do it.

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