Grandkid deer gun?

[thatguyshm]

I though the reason flash suppressors were put on the old Colt M16 was to help hide the flash of the muzzle retort in the jungles? I've never heard of it being used as any kind of brake to help eliminate drift..

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[goosedowner]

Flash suppressors and muzzle brakes are different. A flash suppressor defuses the muzzle flash so you don't get night blindness when you shoot in the dark, the brake redirects the muzzle blast to help control the effects of felt recoil and muzzle rise.
I too suffer from bad tinnitus and I would not subject my Grandkids to the extra noise level from a Brake in a hunting gun.
So far I'm leaning towards the 243. I'll have to start watching the local classifieds for used Savages for sale cheap.

[handirifle]

Well the problem is, or has become, more of a language barrier than a discussion about guns for kids.
What Toddcdozer is talking about is a subject most here would reject because they have either no, or at least very little knowledge of it.
Its different, I don't understand the logic of it, so therefore I think its wrong, would be the average persons view.
But all that aside, I would be buying a young shooter/hunter either a 243 or a 7/08 and preferably the 7/08.
They fall off a bike and get hurt, then they get back on the bike. Same with the back yard gym set, and the little league sports.
Much about recoil is mind over matter, and when they get to the point they don't mind, it no longer matters.
Certainly by this point theve shot lots of 22 rimfires, and 223s, before being moved along to a bigger cartridge.
Actually, many shooters and hunters, especially those who shoot from benches, use a muzzle brake mainly because it makes it easier to see hits and stay on the target, and not necessarily for the recoil reduction aspect. Take a look at the photo of Lonewolf shooting prone/bipod, and observe the type muzzle brake. No dirt is being blown into his face, but with a different designed brake it would be. So again, we have people offering opinions with little knowledge of the subject matter.

N ev er said it gets in the shooters eyes, but everyone around them. In my opinion, and I am not alone, brakes under a roof, or when shooting benches are within 10ft of each other should not be allowed on a range. I have had crap blasted into my face and have see in on others, shooting brakes on big caliber guns. The amount of muzzle blast it projects to the shooters nearby is incredible. Loud sound isn't the only thing that hurts hearing. Even when wearing shooting muffs the blast pressure can and does adversely affect someone on the receiving end of it.

The difference between falling off a bike and the sharp blast of recoil to a kids shoulder is apples and oranges. One does not need finese or intense concentration when riding a bike. Nor does it matter if you flinch a bit with the handle bars or pedals. Learning flinch from shooting a large caliber rifle can seriously affect your accuracy. That flinch ABSOLUTELY comes from muzzle blast (ie brake) or felt recoil. Ask any professional shooting instructor and they will tell you flinch is very difficult to overcome.

I FULLY understand the difference (brake vs flash suppressor) and purposes of each. Used properly they serve a purpose. I have a brake on my mini 14, to control vertical lift but I really do not like the sound. It hurts my ears even with plugs.

Do I think they should never be used, that is not my call, but I would never start a kid off on one, or an adult shooter for that matter.

[squirrel_slayer]

I know I may be burned at the stake but how about that new howa 1500 in 6.5 grendel? offers alot of power for it's size (and bang for the buck) and if you got the 20" lightweight model it would be easy to carry in the field. also has fun features to keep the grand kids hip with the latest trends like detachable magazine and the stocks come in several different colors and patterns.

if staying with a savage the 6.5 creedmoor would make for a good option. you could load youth loads with h4895 and use a bullet like the 129gr accubond lr

[JASmith]

I know I may be burned at the stake but how about that new howa 1500 in 6.5 grendel? offers alot of power for it's size (and bang for the buck) and if you got the 20" lightweight model it would be easy to carry in the field. also has fun features to keep the grand kids hip with the latest trends like detachable magazine and the stocks come in several different colors and patterns.

if staying with a savage the 6.5 creedmoor would make for a good option. you could load youth loads with h4895 and use a bullet like the 129gr accubond lr
I share your trepidation about stakes and fires -- A Howa or CZ Grendel would make an outstanding youth rifle that has the potential for being the 'go-to' rifle when he or she goes past the age of 90. The 6.5 Gendel Reloading Handbook has a lot of stuff on hunting and does indeed highlight hunting exploits by some rather young shooters: http://shootersnotes.com/articles/6-5-grendel-reloading-handbook/

Creating one from a Savage is a straight forward barrel and bolt head swap if the rifle doesn't already have a PPC bolt head. The only disadvantage is the Savage may be a bit longer and heavier than rifles using actions designed expressly for the shorter cartridges.

BTW The handbooks were written before any commercial bolt action rifles were announced so most of the discussion and examples involve that 'evil black rifle.' Evidently the youngsters are OK with it too.

[taylorce1]

6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC would work very well from a Savage action, but it'd be cheaper to buy the Grendel in the Howa or CZ.

I still think the .300 BLK is pretty viable as well. I bought the Ruger American pictured and it has been a shooter so far. I hate the brake still, but must admit with the subsonic loads it isn't very obnoxious.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/For%20Sale%202/20170211_090436.jpg

300 yard group off bipod no rear rest 120 grain OTFB ammo.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/taylorce1/For%20Sale%202/.300%20BLK%208.jpg

[squirrel_slayer]

If I didn't already own 5.56 weapon's and have kids i'd probably buy one of those ranch rifles. but murphy isn't the kindest law to me and I can't take the chance of one of my kids getting injured god forbid a 300blk round made it into a .223.

I built a 16" 300blk AR years back weighed 6lbs on the nose with a 1.5-5 leupold mr/t and 5 rounds. it was my walking deer gun for the denser terrain. by filling down the ribs in the ar mag I loaded the bullets out further to max mag length 2.265 and under a heavily compressed load of aa1680 I was able to get 1934ft/sec from it with a 168gr bullet. so in essence a semi auto 30-30 with better trajectory (spitzer vs round nose)

didn't get a chance to use it on deer but I felt confident enough to take it afield. just figured i'd limit my shots to 200yds much like you would with a 30-30

[psharon97]

The biggest question I would have is what kind of ammo availability will the parent have. While I can get 6.5 creedmoor in my area, I have to go to bigger box store to get it. 243 and 7mm-08 are both very plentiful. I would start the youngster out on a 243.

[LHitchcox]

Taylorce1, I recently shot a rig almost like yours. The recoil was almost negligible and man was it accurate. A friend of mine bought two of those, one for him and one for his small grandkids The Ruger American Compact or Ranch rifle in .300 BO would be ideal for shots under 150 yds. CVA chambers it in their single shot at a very attractive price if that is an option for the original poster.

The worry of not finding ammo on the shelf in nearby gun shops can easily be gotten around by ordering sufficient quantities from Midway, etc. When I bought a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel for my Savage, I bought the ammo from Midway on sale with intentions to load the empty brass myself. Four boxes of factory ammo with the same brass makes reloading easy.

[65Whelen]

We are in an age when you get whatever caliber in whatever configuration it is offered online. The old nock about "ya but can you find ammo for it" is a dead issue. This has been one of my pet peeves when it comes to calibers. Another one is the 30 caliber, America just loves the 30s. There are so many caliber that outperform them it's ridiculous. Think outside the box, I really like the 6.5s and the 338's. These guys can perform.

[taylorce1]

Taylorce1, I recently shot a rig almost like yours. The recoil was almost negligible and man was it accurate. A friend of mine bought two of those, one for him and one for his small grandkids The Ruger American Compact or Ranch rifle in .300 BO would be ideal for shots under 150 yds. CVA chambers it in their single shot at a very attractive price if that is an option for the original.

I picked up a Bergara barrel in .300 BLK for my Encore a couple years ago. I enjoyed shooting it so much I wanted a bolt action I the cartridge. I just waited until the right deal came along, I got everything in the picture for $500 + transfer fees. I'll probably try it on white tails in OK this fall, I'll report back on how it performs.

[DannoBoone]

I believe the 22-250 will recoil as much as a .243, if not more.
The only way that statement is true, is if one is shooting a .243 with 55gr bullets loaded down to
.22-250 speeds. One should NOT use 55gr pills for deer in the .243 since they are meant for varmints.
I have both calibers in Sav VLP's, and with hunting weight bullets there is a very noticeable difference.

[taylorce1]

The only way that statement is true, is if one is shooting a .243 with 55gr bullets loaded down to
.22-250 speeds. One should NOT use 55gr pills for deer in the .243 since they are meant for varmints.
I have both calibers in Sav VLP's, and with hunting weight bullets there is a very noticeable difference.

I'll agree there's no way a .22-250 will recoil as much as a .243. However, not all 55 grain bullets for the .243 Win are varmint bullets. CEB makes a 55 grain Raptor hunting bullet for the 6mm rifles.

[JASmith]

Also, check out the 60 gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos bullet: https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/243-60gr-controlled-chaos-high-velocity-lead-free-bullet?variant=1073850280

The added powder mass in the .243 will make it feel more like a 70 gr .223 round.

[jeffreykooken]

I shot my 1st buck at 13 with a 257Roberts. I was'nt so much the caliber, but the shape of the stock that caused the felt "recoil". At 55, and 200 lb, I get thumped more shooting a 30-30 lever action, than a 300WM with a Bell & Carlson stock. That stock fits me. For the kids, and ladies, Savage has a .308 in a wood stock, that has a shorter LOP, and a shorter grip radius, to fit smaller frames. Also, with wood, its easy to shorten the LOP, or shim the pad to make it longer. If they can shoot the same rifle year after year, by adjusting the stock, they may become more proficient shooters, and hunters.

[berudd]

You can't beat single shot hammer gun for safety,my grandkids will be starting out with an H&R in 300BLK and the 110gr Barnes. Even has a threaded barrel so you can use a brake if needed to tame it even more. Good to 200 yds.

Not so sure I agree that a hammer gun is the best safety wise. I young shooter may not have the strength to cock it. That can cause them to contort a bit and wave the gun around while trying or they might drop the hammer on a live round. Of course a hammer block would help there. And since a single shot gun like that might be light weight it might kick more.

It's going to depend on the kid but there is a good chance that an 8 or 9 year old is not going to be able to take the recoil of a cartridge that can responsibly be used to hunt deer. I know some people use .223. Heck I know they have been killed by .22LR but that does not make them a good choice. But 300 BLK might be a good option in an AR-15. It will recoil less and should be plenty gun out to 100 yards or so. Now, I know people will say you can't give a kid a semi-auto because as soon as you fire, it is ready to shoot again. Well, I would remind them they work just fine with only a single round in the magazine. The AR gives you a big, easy to see, easy to operate safety and once the single cartridge is fired the bolt stays open.

In general, I would not trust any round small than .243 for deer. I want something that will fully penetrate on a double lung shot and leave a blood trail. I am not going to rely on a head or neck shot. If the kid in question can't handle a .243 then they are probably just not ready for deer hunting yet.

[JASmith]

There's a bunch of 8-10 year olds who have harvested deer with the 6.5 Grendel.

The ease of swapping a Savage barrel makes going to the cartridge straightforward. Even easier is to buy an off-the-shel Howa or CZ chambered in the Grendel.

Get an adjustable stock, and the youngster will enjoy that rifle for decades!

[Danatkins8605]

I've got a 243 axis and my fiance shoots it quite well heck wouldn't bother me to let my 6 year old shoot it if she could get eye relief figured out and with a 95 grain nosler BT I dropped a little buck drt last year. Not to mention even with cheapo factory 100 grain softpoints it will shoot a .75 moa group all day.

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