.308 won't go thru brush

[tammons]

Yeah, but I lived in Belgrade, Montana. The guy who machines them is practically my neighbor, so I was just supporting local business. ;)


Thats a good neighbor.

[b()()ga]

if you didn't have a clear shot, you should not have pulled the trigger.

[tammons]

I watch an occasional video of an African buff hunt where the PH prompts the hunter to shoot an animal laying down through so much brush you can hardly see the critter.

[Harry Pope]

A 60" moose is a large animal, and in my experience (27 years hunting in Alaska) they often do not respond much when first hit. Did the OP follow the animal for several hours to determine if he had been hit or not? Did he look for blood (not likely with that inadequate bullet)? I hope by "center of mass" the OP didn't mean he aimed in the lateral 'center' of the animal. ::) ::)

While I certainly could be wrong, it sounds like the OP has little hunting experience. I suspect he did in fact hit the moose but expected the animal to fall over DRT so he blamed the bullet (wouldn't be the first time someone did). I guess you can't really blame him - there is so much BS in on-line forums with the words 'DRT after the shot' that the inexperienced hunter might think they are shooting a 20mm Oerlikon.

Bottom line: another beautiful animal wasted through inexperience.




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[borg]

if you want something a bit bigger for the savage action, .35 whelen, .338-06, .416 tayler.

.45-70 has the ballistic lob of a .22rf


I love Savages, but my brush gun is a short, fast-handling Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. The trigger was sweet straight from the factory. I can actually hit a paper plate consistently at 100 yards using the iron sights while shooting unsupported offhand, which is better than I can do with my scoped rifles. Anything inside 100 yards is dead, and if I'm hunting in less dense areas I can switch to LeveRevolution rounds and extend the MPBR considerably. But that's only if I don't have access to my other rifles.

Besides, moose generally aren't as hard to sneak up on as other ungulates.

[pdog06]

You dont need a different bullet or a different caliber for that shot. What you needed was a better/clearer shot to take.

[efm77]

That's right pdog. With today's bullets, elk and moose can be cleanly killed with a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet.

[Harry Pope]

With today's bullets, elk and moose can be cleanly killed with a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet.

But the OP was apparently using yesterday's bullet (cheap Federal). And remember the OP lacks experience - he took a 'center of mass' shot at 25 feet. Clean kill? Right.

This was not a cow elk the guy plinked. IME on large moose like this, expecting to get a low sectional density cup-and-core bullet to give complete penetration on a broadside shot through the gut at close range is wishful thinking. I watched a hunting partner use his 150/.308 combo (with Partitions) at 30 yards on a 45" bull and it did not give complete penetration through the chest. Had he used a 180-grain Partition (yesterday's bullet again) the OP may have gotten a pass through and perhaps a decent blood trail to follow.

I still think the moose's carcass is lying in a brush pile a hundred yards from where he was hit.



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[efm77]

You make a good point. I don't disagree with you.

[Eric in NC]

With today's bullets, elk and moose can be cleanly killed with a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet.

But the OP was apparently using yesterday's bullet (cheap Federal). And remember the OP lacks experience - he took a 'center of mass' shot at 25 feet. Clean kill? Right.

This was not a cow elk the guy plinked. IME on large moose like this, expecting to get a low sectional density cup-and-core bullet to give complete penetration on a broadside shot through the gut at close range is wishful thinking. I watched a hunting partner use his 150/.308 combo (with Partitions) at 30 yards on a 45" bull and it did not give complete penetration through the chest. Had he used a 180-grain Partition (yesterday's bullet again) the OP may have gotten a pass through and perhaps a decent blood trail to follow.

I still think the moose's carcass is lying in a brush pile a hundred yards from where he was hit.



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[bubbinator]

I have to ask the question-WTF were you thinking hunting a 1000+ lbs. game animal with a 150gr. 308? In any suitable caliber rifle in the .30 range 180 gr. Premiums of some brand would be a minimum, I'd think. Don't take me wrong, I hunt in Al and almost everything here is over powered above .25-06, but just think about all that bulk on a Moose! Add in the brush interference= you got what you paid for. A side story on light bullets- I loaded my 220 Swith Savage 26" with some Hornady 50gr bullets-note in the box said Do not exceed 3500 fps. My load was pushing 39K-40K fps. I came around a corner on a country road, saw a big Bobcat on the road shoulder about 100 yds away. Got a shot off, cat jumped at least 15' in the air cart-wheeling end over end. I ran to the spotlooking for blood. All I found was Bobcat crap everywhere! It was squatting to crap when I shot! I droven to my gravel pit range a mile away and shot 5 of those new loads. Only 3 reached the target,the other 2 blew up and peppered the paper with particles. Poor Kitty was fixing to take a dump when he got what equated to being TAzered! It was funny as hell!

[tammons]

Exactly.

Re-barrel that rifle to a 338 fed or better yet a 338 RCM.

Load it up with some 210 gr TTSX with the fed or 225 gr TTSX bullets for the RCM
or 250 gr roundnose bullets for the brush with either. All over RL17 and you should get some
decent velocity.

[khuff]

You need more gun, 338-06 minimum; I'd go with a 338WM. You can always go with a 458 WM and with a reduced load (45-70 ballistics) or a full house load; new barrel $200 w/ nut wrench and GO/NoGO guages, well and a LA.....

[borg]

I'd say he needs at least 3 more guns. ;)

[Blue Avenger]

the brush was not that bad... but enough to where I could only see the moose outline.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/gcidso123/funny%20pic/emocons/fing20.gif

[Captain Finlander]

I can't believe what I am reading. You all need to read more on sectional density and terminal performance associated with it. Hunting animals is not the same as punching paper at the range.

Clearly a .308 150 grain bullet might have enough weight but lacks sectional density. I wouldn't consider a 150 grain .308 for deer let alone moose. I read every day about 308 shooters recovering their 150 grain bullet from deer so how and the heck is it going to penetrate a moose if it can't blast through a whitetail? The 6.5x55 swede has been effectively killing moose in northern europe for a century so whats the difference? Sectional Density!

A 140 grain 6.5 bullet performs better than a 150 from a 308 any day because of its Sectional density. The bottom line is this: the longer a bullet is the better it holds together, resists deflection, penetrates and offers more expansion capability. When your talking critters as large as moose then you need a bullet capable of penetrating more than the front shoulder and bullet weight has nothing to do with it.

308 shooters get caught up in the velocity issue but forget entirely about terminal performance and the lighter .308 bullets are terrible performers on game IMO.

[GaCop]

In Canada back in the 40s and 50s, the venerable 30-30 with 190 grain soft nose was used effectively on moose at short range of 100 yards and less. Good SD with that 190 grain round soft nose.

[Captain Finlander]

In Canada back in the 40s and 50s, the venerable 30-30 with 190 grain soft nose was used effectively on moose at short range of 100 yards and less. Good SD with that 190 grain round soft nose.


Exactly!

Moose are seldom shot at long range because of the thick country they inhabit but the right bullet for your caliber is critical to success.

[barrel-nut]

Hi folks! I'm a new member but have been following this forum for years, and have a lot of respect for the opinions of most of the members here. I have been a hunter and shooter for about 30 yrs, and have been handloading for 3 yrs. While I'm certainly no expert on this subject, I do have my own personal experiences and opinions, and felt compelled to share them.... so here's my 2 cents.
Sectional density is indeed critically important in relation to penetration on game, especially game of this size. However, the real issue here is deflection due contact with brush, not necessarily poor penetration on game (although that would have probably been a problem had the 150 grain "deer bullet" found its way cleanly to the target). In my opinion, there is probably no gun/caliber/bullet made, that can be fired from the shoulder, that will RELIABLY "punch through" brush without DEFLECTION. Notice that I did not say will not penetrate reliably through brush, but rather that will not do so without a significant amount of deflection (and/or damage to the bullet).
As to the bigger caliber/heavier/slower is better argument, I personally witnessed a .44 caliber 240 grain Hornady XTP fired from my brother's muzzleloader, which I know to have been travelling at about 1500 fps as we had fired this load though my chronograph previously, be deflected by a single branch which was smaller than the diameter of the bullet, causing a clean miss on the deer standing about 15 yards behind it. He says he never even saw the sapling between him and the deer (it was the only one), and we found the twig almost cleanly severed, just hanging by a thread. He had been hunting from a treestand, so he was firing downward toward the deer. I was hunting a few hundred yards down over the same field that morning, and distinctly remember hearing the sound of that heavy, slow, "brush bustin" bullet whizzing off across the open field after hitting that 3/8 inch green twig, and also hearing it crashing into the trees on the far side of the field some 300 yards away a second or so after the shot. This is only one example, but this indicates some serious deflection, probably on the order of 30-45 degrees change of course, all from a single small green branch that was hardly even noticeable. That single experience made me a firm disbeliever in the "brush gun" myth.
By the way, the severed branch was directly in line with the deer and the firing point, and my brother has killed many more deer than I could ever hope to in one lifetime, so I seriously don't think this was a case of nerves, pulling the shot, etc. This was simply this deer's lucky day. We searched, often on hands and knees, for a couple of hours where the deer had been standing, and along the path where he moseyed off after the ill fated shot, and found absolutely no signs of a hit on the animal. This, coupled with the nearly severed branch, and especially the fact that I heard the bullet impact high in the trees some 300 yds away, led us to conclude that, hard as it may be for some people to accept, a single small obstruction CAN have a tremendously detrimental effect on your carefully placed shot. Now, as in the OP's case, factor in a small army of bullet deflecting branches, and it's not difficult at all for me to conclude that either the bullet never hit the moose at all (best case), or.. if it did, the light bullet fragmented and peppered the unfortunate moose, which probably later died as a result, which is a waste (worst case). As in my brother's case, lesson learned...
Bottom line for me is: no matter the caliber, bullet choice, velocity etc., DON'T SHOOT THROUGH BRUSH.. AT ALL! As I stated before, you can not expect RELIABLE results, and if you don't expect with reasonable certainty to kill the animal in the crosshairs, don't pull the trigger.
Just my 2 cents....

[GaCop]

Good point "barrel-nut". You jogged my memory about a test I witnessed long ago while on active duty. A 50 caliber BMG with a standard 647 grain load will not track straight through heavy cover. I never would have believed this had I not seen the military test done using 1/2 wood dowels, 24 inches in height, staggered approximately 1.5 inch apart, 24" in depth and five feet wide with the target placed 10 feet or so behind the dowels. Of five rounds fired, only two hit the edge of the target frame. The point they made was..................as good as the "Ma Duce" is, it couldn't perform miracles in heavy cover.