Shortbox4x4
12-27-2019, 06:50 PM
So years back say right after WW2, how were the good barrels like say those used on 52 Winchesters made?
And by people like Harry Pope who was well known as a barrel maker?
Was the machinery available to do cut rifling at that time?
And finally, since most factory rifles today are more accurate when purchased than years ago, is it due to better made barrels due to better machinery, Or a combination of things including ammo?
I frankly don’t think man is any smarter or better today, but we certainly have the techknowledgy to help make it look that way.
Single point cut rifling is the oldest method still being used today to make gun barrels. Don’t confuse single point cut rifling and broach cutting. Similar but different.
Pope’s barrels where all cut rifled. His original machines where all manual machines. He physically pulled the cutter thru the bore of the barrel by hand. Just like Schoyen and others of the time.
Win.52 barrels where cut rifled as where some and all of the preWW2 1903 barrels, 1917 Enfield barrels etc....button rifling came about during WW2 for the most part. Germans started it around 1925ish time frame if I remember correctly.
No new machines where built till we built brand new CNC machines. The last single point cut rifling machines built would’ve been the Pratt and Whitney hydraulic rifling machines and I think the last ones where WW2 or maybe till about 1952. Tooling still plays a part but we took all of the short comings out of the P&W machines. Even the Pratt’s though will make a consistently better barrel than a button barrel. Our machines and again tooling plays a part we’ve made 2 groove, 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove, 5R, 6, 8, 10 and 12 groove barrels. The machines are capable up to 24 grooves if memory serves me right. Twist....we can do gain twist and straight twist. Left hand twist or right hand twist. We’ve done gain twist barrels that have started out at 0 twist. Straight twist barrels we’ve made barrels with a twist rate as fast as 1-1.5! Actually we tried making 1-1 twist but tooling limited us as we where wiping out half the land width but the barrel still turned out.
Rifles now a days or should I say barrels made now a days are not necessarily any better than days gone by. I just recently sold a Ballard Rigby 4th variation that was converted by Pope around 1905 to 22RF. That rifle would shoot groups in the .3xx’s at 65 yards. I’ve had or had plenty of old rilfles WW2 vintage time frame or older that will shoot as good or better than stuff made now a days. I’d say ammo and bullets have made leaps and bounds. Box ammo especially with in the last 15 years or so. Still plenty of crappy ammo out there. The old saying is you get what you pay for but if you want the best accuracy your still handloading. To me that hasn’t changed.
For years cut rifling kinda died after WW2. You had a couple of guys/shops here or there that still did it but not in any real qty. I’d say Obermeyer and then Krieger really put cut rifling back on the map. Even when I started at Krieger there was a belief that button barrels where better and a cut rifled barrel would never compete with a button barrel on a bench gun. That was totally false/inaccurate statement. The biggest problem with say Obermeyer or anyone else till Krieger no one made slow twist 6mm benchrest barrels. Now a days...you look at almost any equipment list in short range BR and it’s Bartlein and Krieger on top. Maybe you will see a Shilen or a Hart in the top 25 and if you do it’s a couple here or there at a big match.
Overall from making barrels to making ammo and bullets we are better today then in years past. In some cases I’ll agree....some skill/knowledge has been lost to the guys who have passed before us. I wish I could sit down at a table with Pope and others and ask why did they do this or why did they do that? What led them to doing a crown this way or that way etc....and that’s the problem I see more and more....big manufacturers are gearing towards more and more production and the old world skills are to an extent being lost. Hell even the local schools are getting to the point of not teaching basic machining skills anymore and this is also coming from the manufacturing sector side....where they only want someone that knows how to program a machine but that new guy at times cannot even make a manual machine run and make a part with it. Feeling/touch part of the skills are being lost I fee and I’m hearing it from the older generations of teachers that are being forced to give it up. One of the local trade schools doesn’t even have a manual engine lathe in the school anymore!
And by people like Harry Pope who was well known as a barrel maker?
Was the machinery available to do cut rifling at that time?
And finally, since most factory rifles today are more accurate when purchased than years ago, is it due to better made barrels due to better machinery, Or a combination of things including ammo?
I frankly don’t think man is any smarter or better today, but we certainly have the techknowledgy to help make it look that way.
Single point cut rifling is the oldest method still being used today to make gun barrels. Don’t confuse single point cut rifling and broach cutting. Similar but different.
Pope’s barrels where all cut rifled. His original machines where all manual machines. He physically pulled the cutter thru the bore of the barrel by hand. Just like Schoyen and others of the time.
Win.52 barrels where cut rifled as where some and all of the preWW2 1903 barrels, 1917 Enfield barrels etc....button rifling came about during WW2 for the most part. Germans started it around 1925ish time frame if I remember correctly.
No new machines where built till we built brand new CNC machines. The last single point cut rifling machines built would’ve been the Pratt and Whitney hydraulic rifling machines and I think the last ones where WW2 or maybe till about 1952. Tooling still plays a part but we took all of the short comings out of the P&W machines. Even the Pratt’s though will make a consistently better barrel than a button barrel. Our machines and again tooling plays a part we’ve made 2 groove, 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove, 5R, 6, 8, 10 and 12 groove barrels. The machines are capable up to 24 grooves if memory serves me right. Twist....we can do gain twist and straight twist. Left hand twist or right hand twist. We’ve done gain twist barrels that have started out at 0 twist. Straight twist barrels we’ve made barrels with a twist rate as fast as 1-1.5! Actually we tried making 1-1 twist but tooling limited us as we where wiping out half the land width but the barrel still turned out.
Rifles now a days or should I say barrels made now a days are not necessarily any better than days gone by. I just recently sold a Ballard Rigby 4th variation that was converted by Pope around 1905 to 22RF. That rifle would shoot groups in the .3xx’s at 65 yards. I’ve had or had plenty of old rilfles WW2 vintage time frame or older that will shoot as good or better than stuff made now a days. I’d say ammo and bullets have made leaps and bounds. Box ammo especially with in the last 15 years or so. Still plenty of crappy ammo out there. The old saying is you get what you pay for but if you want the best accuracy your still handloading. To me that hasn’t changed.
For years cut rifling kinda died after WW2. You had a couple of guys/shops here or there that still did it but not in any real qty. I’d say Obermeyer and then Krieger really put cut rifling back on the map. Even when I started at Krieger there was a belief that button barrels where better and a cut rifled barrel would never compete with a button barrel on a bench gun. That was totally false/inaccurate statement. The biggest problem with say Obermeyer or anyone else till Krieger no one made slow twist 6mm benchrest barrels. Now a days...you look at almost any equipment list in short range BR and it’s Bartlein and Krieger on top. Maybe you will see a Shilen or a Hart in the top 25 and if you do it’s a couple here or there at a big match.
Overall from making barrels to making ammo and bullets we are better today then in years past. In some cases I’ll agree....some skill/knowledge has been lost to the guys who have passed before us. I wish I could sit down at a table with Pope and others and ask why did they do this or why did they do that? What led them to doing a crown this way or that way etc....and that’s the problem I see more and more....big manufacturers are gearing towards more and more production and the old world skills are to an extent being lost. Hell even the local schools are getting to the point of not teaching basic machining skills anymore and this is also coming from the manufacturing sector side....where they only want someone that knows how to program a machine but that new guy at times cannot even make a manual machine run and make a part with it. Feeling/touch part of the skills are being lost I fee and I’m hearing it from the older generations of teachers that are being forced to give it up. One of the local trade schools doesn’t even have a manual engine lathe in the school anymore!