Bushing Die Expander Button Pros and Cons

[mikeinco]

yes but way out of context of 6br bolt gun.
i do not crimp gas gun ammo
i provide enough neck tension to not need a crimp.
crimp is great for full auto...not much use to the rest of the world.



Gas guns i just FL with ball to make it simple since I put a moderate crimp on all my AR rounds, 5.56, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmoor and 308 on all those I would charge them, then extract and increase crimp till I didn't get any movement. I had a couple incidents(minor ones) that made me decide to crimp all AR rounds

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[Slowpoke Slim]

I personally don't use an expander when neck sizing with a bushing die. It defeats the purpose of using that die entirely. I also don't use a neck bushing die unless I'm turning the necks first. Most of the time, I'm only after a clean up pass, to ensure the neck thickness is the same all the way around the neck, and to get all my necks in the same batch of brass to the same neck thickness.

[243winxb]

I found .001" neck tension not enough for a single shot. After a few loadings of neck turned brass, a smaller bushing was needed.

Unturned brass use expander. Look for light drag when expander is pulled thru the lubed necks.

Neck turned, no expander.

Accuracy is better when the bushing only sized 1/2 of the 243 win necks. Turned or unturned. Takes about 3 firings till unsized case neck is in full contact with chambers neck.

[mikeinco]

i would say that is not normal, from my years of loading and shooting....precision shooting and loading.

never a pull thru expander.
i have used neck expanders ( as in neck turning gear) for better internal sizing of a neck.


I found .001" neck tension not enough for a single shot. After a few loadings of neck turned brass, a smaller bushing was needed.

Unturned brass use expander. Look for light drag when expander is pulled thru the lubed necks.

Neck turned, no expander.

Accuracy is better when the bushing only sized 1/2 of the 243 win necks. Turned or unturned. Takes about 3 firings till unsized case neck is in full contact with chambers neck.

[mikeinco]

if you only size part of the neck , the case tries to align on the unsized portion of the case neck,
wasting all the work you put into seating the bullet straight.

[bigedp51]

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get more concentric ammunition with non-bushing full length dies.

A bushing floats inside the die and can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. So remember what competitive shooters do with their custom rifles may have no effect on a off the shelf factory rifle with a larger SAAMI chamber. And a standard non-bushing die holds the case body and neck in perfect alignment and a bushing floats and can induce neck runout.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

Please note below the honed neck Forster dies at the link above have the Forster high mounted floating expanders the reduce neck runout.

https://accurateshooter.net/pix/Gear_Forster_FLsx350.jpg

And the honed Forster dies below produce less neck runout than Redding bushing dies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac3iDJxDgxk

[mikeinco]

PLEASE NOTE HE SAID ONE THING AND THEN CHANGED IN MID STREAM
WHY HE IS IN MY IGNORE LIST
from
"hey get more concentric ammunition with non-bushing full length dies."
to
"..... the(custom) honed Forster die"

NOT OFF THE SHELF RELOADING DIES

yes a custom is good, but cannot handle variables like neck tension change
you would need a die in each step up and down from where you start...
things change



At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get more concentric ammunition with non-bushing full length dies.

A bushing floats inside the die and can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. So remember what competitive shooters do with their custom rifles may have no effect on a off the shelf factory rifle with a larger SAAMI chamber. And a standard non-bushing die holds the case body and neck in perfect alignment and a bushing floats and can induce neck runout.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

Please note below the honed neck Forster dies at the link above have the Forster high mounted floating expanders the reduce neck runout.

https://accurateshooter.net/pix/Gear_Forster_FLsx350.jpg

And the honed Forster dies below produce less neck runout than Redding bushing dies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac3iDJxDgxk

[bigedp51]

PLEASE NOTE HE SAID ONE THING AND THEN CHANGED IN MID STREAM
WHY HE IS IN MY IGNORE LIST

Its very strange, you say I'm on your ignore list but you read my postings and even reposted them.

My point is simple, in a standard SAAMI chamber a bushing die has a very good chance of producing more neck runout than a non-bushing die. And this is because of the amount the neck diameter must be reduce in a factory chamber. And the Redding bushing die FAQ backs this up and tells you to reduce the neck diameter in several steps to help reduce runout.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/142-concentricity-a-bushing-dies
Concentricity & Bushing Dies (https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/142-concentricity-a-bushing-dies)

From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse.

Below is a cutaway image of a Forster full length die with its high mounted floating expander. The case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This centers the floating expander and prevents the expander from pulling the neck off center.

https://i.imgur.com/CzNnpuh.jpg


And in the 6.5 Guys video I posted he even tells you he gets less neck runout with a full length Forster non-bushing die than with Redding bushing dies. And in the video he stated that Forster recomended having the neck honed .004 smaller than a loaded roundneck diameter and use the expander. It also stated if you neck turn then the neck can be honed to your desired neck diameter for the neck tenshion you desire.

Below from .accurateshooter.com this compeditive shooter has three honed Forster dies and he uses the dies expanders. Using a expander is not the end of the world like many
reloaders say they are. And lubing the inside the case neck and polishing the expander greatly reduces drag. And the Forster high mounted floating expander is designed to not pull the necks off center and induce runout.

Forster FL dies, necks honed to .265″, .266″, and .267″.

https://accurateshooter.net/pix/Gear_Forster_FLsx350.jpg


Below I replaced my RCBS dies expanders with the Forster expander units to reduce neck runout.

https://i.imgur.com/5kfnKwd.jpg

Below I also installed modified Forster expanders on my Redding dies. Why drag the longer Redding expander through your necks with their increased drag.

https://i.imgur.com/kWbieba.jpg

Bottom line, I get less neck runout with Forster dies than with bushing dies in my off the shelf factory rifles.

[243winxb]

The target will show what works. Test all ways.

[Robinhood]

yes a custom is good, but cannot handle variables like neck tension change
you would need a die in each step up and down from where you start...
things change



Why does your neck tension change. Don't you anneal.
Not everyone shoots to 5 miles.

[Steeltrap]

So...the "Standard" Forster decap\expander unit will fit my RCBS sizing die? Who knew? (Is that right....I can just order the standard Forster unit?)

[Fuj']

No one die, brand, or method will work for all, but I do recommend
A FL sizer, honed close to your neck tension numbers, and not using
an expander of any type in the sizing process......Pay close attention
to the area of the neck where a donut will form. Donuts do not form
concentric. If the base of the bullet is above it, your fine. If the base
has to push through the donut, It will skew the bullet.

[mikeinco]

we are not talking about me......i do not do this.
necks change as they are used
brass flows forward
my guess is that little of this applies to the average shooter with a $300 savage.
my guess is he sent more on 3 dies than most spent on their rifles.
( 86.75 each delivered..i was close...260.25)

Why does your neck tension change. Don't you anneal.
Not everyone shoots to 5 miles.

[Fuj']

brass flows forward
my guess is that little of this applies to the average shooter with a $300 savage.
my guess is he sent more on 3 dies than most spent on their rifles.
( 86.75 each delivered..i was close...260.25)

All of it applies If a person want's to gather knowledge, then sort
out the "noise"......Or Not

[bigedp51]

The best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.

And with my factory rifles I got more neck runout with bushing dies than with Forster full length dies. And again this is caused with a bushing die by the amount the neck diameter is reduce in a SAAMI chamber.

Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. And the average reloader will not see any improvment using a bushing die with a larger factory SAAMI chamber.

And again the Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if your neck thickness varies .002 or more then select a bushing a few thousands smaller and use the expander that comes with their Redding dies. Meaning they want you to push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck with the expander.


Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems

Concentricity Problems (https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems)

a.k.a Neck Runout With Bottleneck Cases

The concentricity, or neck runout, of loaded cartridges is an important consideration for reloaders and especially the varmint or target shooter.There are many factors that can cause or contribute to neck runout during the reloading process and many reloaders who have not dealt with the problem before quickly blame the sizing or seating die. While the dies may be at fault or have a contributing defect, modern CNC machinery and reamers that cut the body, shoulder, and neck simultaneously make such occurrences rare. Most problems are related to the brass itself and its uniformity both in terms of hardness and thickness and how much it is being stressed in the reloading process.

We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.

An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.

https://i.imgur.com/NlyA8oI.png



Bushing vs Non-Bushing Sizer Dies (https://www.whiddengunworks.com/standard-reloading-dies/#)
https://www.whiddengunworks.com/standard-reloading-dies/

Quite often we hear the question “What is the difference between a bushing full length sizer die and a non-bushing full length sizer die and which is best?”

Full length sizer dies can be broken down into two types. With no preference on either, these types include the bushing sizer die and the non-bushing sizer die.

The bushing sizer die uses a bushing to aid in the sizing of the neck while the body of the die does the sizing of the case body. When sizing the case, the bushing of the die is pressed around the outside of the neck just after the expander ball of the die passes through the neck. As the neck enters the bushing the bushing applies a predetermined amount of tension on the neck. The amount of tension is determined by the size of bushing used. As this action is performed the inconsistencies of the case neck wall are forced to the inside of the neck. As the sizer die is removed from the case the bushing exits the case neck and the expander ball returns through the neck. The diameter of the expander ball will determine the neck tension. When this action occurs the inconsistencies of the case neck wall are forced back to the outside of the neck case. In our experience this allows for a more consistent neck tension when the case is loaded.

Some shooters prefer using no expander ball with a bushing die. In this case the expander ball is replaced with a pin retainer. The pin retainer is used to retain the decapping pin and protects the stem of the die. It serves no function in sizing. When a bushing sizer die is used with no expander ball, neck sizing is done by the bushing itself. With this method the amount of neck tension is determined by the size of the bushing as it is the only and last area of the die to be in contact with the neck of the case.

The non-bushing sizer die works basically like the bushing sizer die. However, the non-bushing sizer die uses an expander ball to size the neck of the case. The expander ball passes through the neck of the case and sets the amount of neck tension. The non-bushing die is designed to size the outside of the neck as the case enters the body of the die. In determining neck tension with the non-bushing sizer die, simply change the expander ball size to obtain the desired amount of tension.

So now, which is best? We’ll let you decide....

The bushing sizer die allows more flexibility in the amount of neck sizing. This is beneficial when changing brands of brass, neck turning brass to achieve different wall thickness and experimenting with different neck tensions in loading. To ease case neck entry into the bushing, all bushings have a small radius on the inside edge. This radius doesn’t allow the sizing of the case neck fully to the shoulder.

The non-bushing sizer die typically yields more concentric ammo in our experience. It also fully sizes the case neck fully to the shoulder for smoother functioning. Neck tension can only be determined by changing expander balls with the non-bushing die.