Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[Ernest T]

Most recent results using a 12 FV 6.5 CM 26-in barrel in an Oryx chassis using a Sinclair Gen 3 F-class bipod and Protektor rear rest from a bench at 100 yards in Northern VA at 250 ft above sea level, temps from 38 to 43 degrees F. in less than 5 mph winds (all with CCI BR-4 primers and Lapua brass):

With ELD-M 140 gr bullets:
H4831SC - 44.6 grs at seating depth 2.878 and trim length 1.908, I got 2707 fps. (8 5-rnd groups - average 0.344)
H4350 - 41.5 grs at seating depth 2.880 and trim length 1.910, I got 2690 fps. (8 5-rnd groups - average 0.337)

With ELD-M 147 gr bullets:
H4831SC 44.4 grs at seating depth 2.898 and trim length 1.907, I got 2685 fps. (6 5-rnd groups - average 0.310)
H4350 41.4 grs at seating depth 2.899 and trim length 1.908, I got 2666 fps. (7 5-rnd groups - average 0.347)

H4831SC is a slower powder than H4350.
Takes more powder but gives a very slight increase in velocity.
Seems to favor heavier bullets based on performance with the 147 gr ELD-Ms, although it will take a lot more groups to confirm that.

So far, I have shot 287 groups at 100 yds with H4350 powder and a variety of 130 to 147 gr bullets to an overall average of 0.324.
The 14 groups with H4831SC powder with 140 and 147 gr bullets averaged 0.329.

I'm going to have to try H4831 after I'm done experimenting with H4350

[Ernest T]

Today was idiots day at the range, luckily the only person with the idiot, err me, was a good friend.

It started off with me not being able to hit anything at 200 yards. After 5 shots I gave up and headed over to the 100 yard range to check zero. The problem was, I only had one small target and I couldn't hit it from 100 yards. The backer boards were so full of holes, I couldn't tell where I was hitting. I had no clue what was wrong since I had no trouble out to 950 yards the last time I shot and I had done nothing but clean the gun. I gave up and went back to the long range to break the news that I was done.

My buddy talked me into trying to figure out what was wrong so we picked a spot on a berm 200 yards away, and used it as a target. I fired and didn't see any impact, but luckily my buddy saw the bullet make impact waaaaay over the berm. He was looking through his scope and said I was about 20 MOA high. That's when it hit me!. One full revolution of the turret on my scope is 20 MOA. The last time I shot was at the 950 yard target which required over 26 MOA of elevation. When I was done, I returned the turret to zero, but I needed one additional revolution to bring it to the true zero. My scope has a zero stop, but I didn't make sure I hit it. First lesson learned.

If that wasn't enough, I had another faux pas later which made my head hurt. My shooting partner had his own ballistics calculator, but he had a variety of ammo and was having to enter data for each one individually. One of the boxes was Hornady Match and since I use the Hornady calculator, I told him I'd enter that one in my calculator since I could select that exact bullet and wouldn't have to enter the ballistic data for it. That worked fine and he was able to hit steel at 950 yards. Somewhere in there, I started shooting and was having a little trouble with the holdovers. I was able to hit out to 850 yards, but my numbers weren't matching and I was having to walk the shots in. Then it hit me, (I was sloooow today) I was not using the data for my rifle. Once I got that sorted out everything worked well.

I shot 46 rounds over four hours and had a great time. Working with a spotter made making corrections a breeze, even in the semi-muddy conditions. Last time I was out there was much more difficult. I also learned that having two people shooting can complicate things if you aren't on top of your game.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-qF6qh4B/0/5f96cf82/L/IMG_0606-L.jpg

[charlie b]

I feel for ya. I did the same thing this week. Not turning the turret another revolution. The worst part is I had done the same thing just last week!! Maybe I'll learn my lesson the next time :)

I think I will mark the scope somehow. I've done that kind of thing with other adjustable things and it works quite well.

PS one of the reasons I like shooting at longer ranges is I can be my own spotter. The rifle 'settles' before the bullet gets to the target.

[Dave Hoback]

Nice picture! Looks like a heck of a place to shoot. Trying to figure out the location…. Is that by any chance a Mesquite tree over-head to the left?

Yes, having a spotter is quite nice. Precisely why Snipers don’t work alone, but in pairs. Of course though.. both need to be speaking English! If one is speaking Swahili, Fagettaboutit!

Man I’d love to join ya out there. I’d spot anytime!

[Ernest T]

I feel for ya. I did the same thing this week. Not turning the turret another revolution. The worst part is I had done the same thing just last week!! Maybe I'll learn my lesson the next time :)

I think I will mark the scope somehow. I've done that kind of thing with other adjustable things and it works quite well.

PS one of the reasons I like shooting at longer ranges is I can be my own spotter. The rifle 'settles' before the bullet gets to the target.

I’m glad I’m not the only one!

[Ernest T]

Nice picture! Looks like a heck of a place to shoot. Trying to figure out the location…. Is that by any chance a Mesquite tree over-head to the left?

Yes, having a spotter is quite nice. Precisely why Snipers don’t work alone, but in pairs. Of course though.. both need to be speaking English! If one is speaking Swahili, Fagettaboutit!

Man I’d love to join ya out there. I’d spot anytime!

it’s in central Texas. Don’t remember what kind of tree it was, but there are lots of mesquite trees around. It’s a nice range, on 300 acres, sometimes you have to run the cows off! Come on down!

[GrenGuy]

Is that a community behind the targets ?

[Ernest T]

Is that a community behind the targets ?

There’s a golf course and rural homes about 3 mi out. The first property at the end is about 500 acres of pasture. There are several parcels that size, then the golf course and then homes.

[wbm]

Is that by any chance a Mesquite tree over-head to the left?

No.


There’s a golf course and rural homes about 3 mi out.

So. Theoretically one could shoot golf balls at 3 miles?:rolleyes:

Beautiful place to shoot Ernest T.

[Ernest T]

No.



So. Theoretically one could shoot golf balls at 3 miles?:rolleyes:

Beautiful place to shoot Ernest T.

Thanks. This is an over-head of the immediate surroundings. We've been shooting from the red circle to the yellow circle. The 1000 and 1200 yard berms are to the left of the yellow circle. Civilization is quite a bit farther north.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-QGsTk6x/0/41fbebd6/L/shooting%20range-L.jpg

[Dave Hoback]

it’s in central Texas. Don’t remember what kind of tree it was, but there are lots of mesquite trees around. It’s a nice range, on 300 acres, sometimes you have to run the cows off! Come on down!

Ha! I was pretty well certain that was somewhere ‘round by beloved South West! Texas, huh? Very cool. I do miss my my time spent in Arizona. To me, it was like my back yard was my shooting range. 1000yds? No sweat. 1200, 1400… can do. A Mile or so? Sure, why not! Just a truly magical place. I’m in SE Pennsylvania now, born & raised in this area. So, not much in the way of quality distance shooting. Several 1000yd ranges, sure.. unfortunately, need be a member with expensive dues & the closest to me is still just shy of 3 hours! So… yeah.. No open land for shooting here.

[charlie b]

One of the reasons I like living where i do. Grew up in Phoenix. Neighbors were part of the group that founded the Ben Avery range (the Olympics were conducted there one year). We used to shoot at a range that is now covered in houses :) (Thunderbird Park). Now Ben Avery is surrounded on 3 sides by houses and businesses (they have a good size hill as a backstop),

When someone says West Texas, to me, that means Midland, Odessa, Van Horn. No trees, some bushes and a lot of oil rigs :) Kinda like southern NM without any mountains. :)

[wbm]

Like "Out in the West Texas town of El Paso."

My old shooting partner used to shoot all winter at Ben Avery.

[Dave Hoback]

One of the reasons I like living where i do. Grew up in Phoenix. Neighbors were part of the group that founded the Ben Avery range (the Olympics were conducted there one year). We used to shoot at a range that is now covered in houses :) (Thunderbird Park). Now Ben Avery is surrounded on 3 sides by houses and businesses (they have a good size hill as a backstop),

When someone says West Texas, to me, that means Midland, Odessa, Van Horn. No trees, some bushes and a lot of oil rigs :) Kinda like southern NM without any mountains. :)

Yeah, I know what you mean Charlie. I lived there and remember when Ben Avery pretty much had nothing around it. I visited last year, unfortunately for a funeral & just the growth I noticed between Phoenix & Tucson was scary. It’s all the Californians running from their HORRIBLE overpriced way of life (because of their party of choice), but the move to where good Conservatives live & bring their Left voting with them…. I don’t it! FACTS staring people in the face!

But I agree about New Mexico. Ya know… I’ve traveled & visited places throughout a large expanse of our Nation. And quite honestly New Mexico was the most fascinatingly Desolate of the States I traveled. It was the only place while driving that gave me that “if we run out of gas, we are going to die out here!” feeling. LOL! I mean, it’s funny.. but that sincerely was the feeling I got the first time I drove through NN. Not in a bad way either.. no sir! Like I said, it was fascinatingly desolate. I so wish to go back & explore it more.

[charlie b]

There are definitely parts of many states here in the west that are like that. Eastern Arizona, most of west Texas, eastern Colorado, Utah outside of Salt Lake City area, most of New Mexico, Wyoming, Nevada and Montana. I don't really look at the areas out here in terms of which state, but, which mountain range, river valley or other geologic features. Great Basin. Kaibab plateau. Rocky Mountains (from Canada to NM). Permian Basin. etc, etc, etc.

[wbm]

Like I said, it was fascinatingly desolate.

It is that. Especially the Llano and Gila Wilderness.

http://www.savageshooters.com/clear.gif (http://www.savageshooters.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=505885&noquote=1)

[Ernest T]

There are definitely parts of many states here in the west that are like that. Eastern Arizona, most of west Texas, eastern Colorado, Utah outside of Salt Lake City area, most of New Mexico, Wyoming, Nevada and Montana. I don't really look at the areas out here in terms of which state, but, which mountain range, river valley or other geologic features. Great Basin. Kaibab plateau. Rocky Mountains (from Canada to NM). Permian Basin. etc, etc, etc.

The Sonoran desert is beautiful, while the Chihuahuan Desert looks like so much flat scrub in many places. As you head west from Central Texas, you can see the plants change. We have quite a diversity of plant life here in the middle of Texas, with enough rain that we have wide variety of fairly large growing trees. Go just 50 miles west and things begin to change. You lose all the trees that aren't some type of oak except in the creek beds. Then, pretty soon they peter out to be replaced with large bushes, and soon after, even they are gone. By the time you get to Ft. Stockton, most of what you see is creosote bush with a few different types of cactus mixed in. Soon after, even the cactus can't survive on the scant rainfall.

[Ernest T]

What You are seeing is different neck wall thickness, and perhaps inconsistent spring back, on no turn necks. The solution to what You want at this point in Your shooting experience is the LEE Collet die. Fire Your cases, full length size them just enough to easily fit in Your chamber, without the expander mandrel installed in the Die. Neck size with the collet die. This will align the center of the neck with the center of the case, and size the inside of the neck with about .003” neck tension. Since You have a no turn stock chamber, who cares what the outside of the neck is. After that, if You want less neck tension, then go to the mandrels mentioned previously.

Do this, and it will solve what worries You so at this point in time. But, then there will be the next thing.

The only way I would use a Bushing Die, is if I were turning necks, making the neck wall thickness consistent, and concentric. I don’t want to push the inconsistencies to the inside, causing bullet run out. And, before I turn necks on My 6mmBRA, I run them through the LEE Collet die to center up the necks and push the bad stuff to the outside, where it is turned off.

I'm finally getting around to trying this out. I've sized 20 cases this way and will do more as I shoot the cartridges I've loaded and get more empty brass. I'm really interested to see if this eliminates the inconsistent force I feel when seating bullets.

One thing I am going to do is buy a full length sizing die with a micrometer adjustment. The Lee die does a good job, or at least I think it does, but I have a difficult time adjusting the shoulder bump since its adjusted by screwing it in and out of the press.

[Ernest T]

Anyone know why tumbling brass with stainless steel pins removes the discoloration imparted by annealing?

[Ernest T]

On another note, I've fired my Lapua brass for the third time now and I notice the length after firing is more consistent than it has been. The last 50 or so cases I measured were almost all + or - .001.