Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[wbm]

Anyone know why tumbling brass with stainless steel pins removes the discoloration imparted by annealing?

Friction.

[charlie b]

The annealing color is simply oxidation. Any kind of abrasive tumbling will remove it.

[Ernest T]

Friction.


The annealing color is simply oxidation. Any kind of abrasive tumbling will remove it.

Got it. I thought the color was actually in the brass, not just the surface.

[South Prairie jim]

I'm finally getting around to trying this out. I've sized 20 cases this way and will do more as I shoot the cartridges I've loaded and get more empty brass. I'm really interested to see if this eliminates the inconsistent force I feel when seating bullets.

One thing I am going to do is buy a full length sizing die with a micrometer adjustment. The Lee die does a good job, or at least I think it does, but I have a difficult time adjusting the shoulder bump since its adjusted by screwing it in and out of the press.
Full length dies typically won’t have a micro adjust top we just use the threads but a seater die with a micro top is quite common and useful. I have shot several no turn 6 bra and rarely use a mandrel or needed one to straighten out a neck beyond virgin brass as the bullet itself acts as a mandrel. I do not use real light neck tension not do I anneal or require any tumbling or ss pins banging and pinging the case mouths. The worst shooting br I’ve ever shot was using light neck tension.

[charlie b]

For more precision on the Lee die just replace the retaining ring with an RCBS or Lyman. I do that with my seating dies as well to make sure they don't move. Lee also makes screw locking rings for their dies now but they still have that Oring.

[Ernest T]

It's been a month since I got to the range! I went yesterday to do a couple things; 1. try out loads of H4350 since I now can't find Winchester Staball 6.5 in 8 lb cannisters and 2., try out loads using brass I sized with the full length sizing die, without the neck sizing mandrel, followed up by a neck sizing die to see if I could get more consistent velocities.

With the H4350, I started at the bottom and worked my way up towards the max load. I was kind of surprised by the velocities I was achieving given that the loads in the book were developed using a 26" barrel and the barrel on my Savage is 22". It was a mildly windy day with the breeze blowing 90 degrees from the left. I had 1.5 MOA left cranked into the windage. I was also shooting off of a bipod instead of a bag which I think adversely affects my group size. I've since removed the bipod and won't reinstall it any time soon.

This is obviously no bueno, the number is parenthesis is the expected velocity from the Hornady manual.
9030

Getting better, but still slow.
9031

Even better, but still slow.
9032

Now, we're getting somewhere.
9033

Going the wrong way, but I still have one more load to shoot. This one is between the previous and highest load so there's no expected velocity.
9034

Better. This one is also between the previous and highest load so there's no expected velocity, but I believe what I'm looking for is somewhere close. I'll try another set starting with 40 grains and incrementing by .2 grain to the max load to see how things look.
9037

[Ernest T]

I'm finally getting around to trying this out. I've sized 20 cases this way and will do more as I shoot the cartridges I've loaded and get more empty brass. I'm really interested to see if this eliminates the inconsistent force I feel when seating bullets.

One thing I am going to do is buy a full length sizing die with a micrometer adjustment. The Lee die does a good job, or at least I think it does, but I have a difficult time adjusting the shoulder bump since its adjusted by screwing it in and out of the press.

I don't know if I learned anything from this exercise. Here are the results and they actually look a little worse than what I've been achieving with the full length sizing die with neck sizing mandrel. I shot 20 rounds sized with the Lee full length sizing die, sans mandrel, and Lee neck sizing die. Here they are divided in groups. One shot didn't register. The groups, with Winchester Staball 6.5, were also consistently larger than I have been shooting with this load. To be sure, I wasn't super happy with the accuracy I could achieve with the Staball compared to RL-16.


9040

9039

9043

9042

[Robinhood]

I am sorry I have not been following your thread. It is cool watching the process take place now that I skimmed over some of it. Something I want to respond to and something I don't think I saw addressed. First: the depth of your bolt head from face to counter bore is supposed to be like .115" I have never seen them lower and have only seen them .001' or .002" deeper. They are held in a tight tolerance has been my experience. .005" deeper and the bolt head is either close to, or rubbing the muzzle when you open or close the bolt. The other thing is, i saw where there were a lot of suggestions on getting even/consistent neck tension. The only way I have seen that happen is if the brass is restored to an annealed state. There is only one way to do that. Heat. There are ways to slow down work hardening as in reducing the frequency necessary for all case necks to remain softer for longer. But once you feel seating become more difficult or inconsistent, annealing is the correct medicine. Keep posting to you get bug holes. Lapua Brass/140 class/41-42.4 h4350/ FGMM primers/ and of coarse getting your seating depth right.

[Ernest T]

I am sorry I have not been following your thread. It is cool watching the process take place now that I skimmed over some of it. Something I want to respond to and something I don't think I saw addressed. First: the depth of your bolt head from face to counter bore is supposed to be like .115" I have never seen them lower and have only seen them .001' or .002" deeper. They are held in a tight tolerance has been my experience. .005" deeper and the bolt head is either close to, or rubbing the muzzle when you open or close the bolt. The other thing is, i saw where there were a lot of suggestions on getting even/consistent neck tension. The only way I have seen that happen is if the brass is restored to an annealed state. There is only one way to do that. Heat. There are ways to slow down work hardening as in reducing the frequency necessary for all case necks to remain softer for longer. But once you feel seating become more difficult or inconsistent, annealing is the correct medicine. Keep posting to you get bug holes. Lapua Brass/140 class/41-42.4 h4350/ FGMM primers/ and of coarse getting your seating depth right.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here in the red.

I've been annealing the brass every time I reload.

Even when I try something and it doesn't change anything or makes it worse, I learn something. Sometimes it takes me a little while to work up to it.

[Dave Hoback]

Ernest, Robin is referring essentially to the amount the case protrudes from the barrel when fully Chambered. If you’ve ever seen just a barrel with an empty case inserted, you’ll notice it does not sit flush with the barrel. Obviously it can’t as the the bolt face is recessed.

[Ernest T]

Ernest, Robin is referring essentially to the amount the case protrudes from the barrel when fully Chambered. If you’ve ever seen just a barrel with an empty case inserted, you’ll notice it does not sit flush with the barrel. Obviously it can’t as the the bolt face is recessed.

Okay, got that, how do you measure that?

[PhilC]

Okay, got that, how do you measure that?
With the barrel off, this one is exactly .125".

https://i.ibb.co/4Zfvv5h/chamberdepth.jpg (https://ibb.co/4Zfvv5h)

[Robinhood]

Actually, that is related to what I was talking about but the conversation was measuring FP protrusion. I may be mistaken but how I do it is measure from the end of the bolt head(1st face) to the face(2nd) at the bottom of the counter bore of the bolt head. Next you measure from face 1, to the tip of the firing pin. Subtract that number from the first dimension gives you your protrusion. The first number is usually very close to .115". //////// Now to correlate that to what Dave brought to light, case protrusion. This is not related to any issue I believe you currently have but for edification and to show the reason for all bolt heads being manufactured to a closely held tolerance, as are Prefit Barrels for Savages. Obviously if your case protrudes your breach too much it will come out bast the web and things would get exciting. If your case protrudes less than the depth of the bolt head face then the face of the bolt will end up rubbing/galling the breach of the barrel before you set headspace.

[South Prairie jim]

Yes, the case will expand, but it can still be chambered. However, the necks would ALWAYS need sized. Most target shooters only neck size anyway. There is no “special” chamber cut which allows NO neck sizing. As for bullets loaded by hand, I’m skeptical. I mean, there are hand loaders, which are the screw together type. But if you mean simply slipping a bullet into the case, I doubt it. Yes those seeking extreme accuracy do favor light neck tension. And I’ve heard of bullets able to to be be pulled from the case neck by hand. However, this was with some effort. The necks still need resized after firing.
Neck sizing went out of style twenty years ago, now will use full length bushing type sizing dies and experiment with different bushing to get the neck tension/ bullet hold the rifle likes. Annealing softens/weakens brass and removes the carbon from the neck ID that once burnished becomes an excellent lube for seating bullets. If your set up likes really light neck tension then you’ll likely see good results from annealing however the opposite is also true and we long range guys have been known to use bushing .005 under a loaded round letting the target tell the truth. Working hardened strong brass is not a bad thing and personally have never split a case neck. If a guy has erratic groups and can’t get them to settle down, ask him if he’s annealing and trying to run light bullet hold/ NT and I’ll bet he says -yeah

[charlie b]

I do use full length die (Forster) for my 6BR. Seems to work well. I guess I could mess with the expander ball to see where the sweet spot is but it shoots better than I can hold it now so not sure I would see any difference.

I still neck size only (Lee collet) for my .308 cast bullet loads. They seem to do better that way. Mostly lower pressure loads.

I have never annealed a case. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but, I have never felt the need. I've only split a few case necks....after more than 20 reloads on the cases. I also rarely deep clean my brass.

[Ernest T]

I did some further refinement work on H4350 loads today and got some good groups at near max loads of 41.2 and 41.4 gr. They weren't sub 1/2 MOA, but 3/4 and 5/8" are pretty good. Loads below 41.2 don't group well at all. The velocity, with my 22" barrel, is pretty low. The 41.2 load shoots just either side of 2600 fps and 41.4 gives me about 2630 fps. I think I'm going to try these loads with CCI 450 magnum primers and see if there's any difference. I have been unable to find H4350 in 8 lb containers so this may just be an exercise in futility like the previous loads I worked up in RL-16 and Staball 6.5.

[Dave Hoback]

Well, that’s realistic velocity. Even with a 26” they are only tipping 2700-2750 (tel:2700-2750) or so zone.….regardless of the droves of guys online stating 2900+++ with the CM, LOL! No, your velocity is decent given the 22”. Although, it completely explains why the groups go to hell below that 41.2gr powder charge. You are right at the velocity threshold which the heavier pills like.

[Ernest T]

Well, that’s realistic velocity. Even with a 26” they are only tipping 2700-2750 (tel:2700-2750) or so zone.….regardless of the droves of guys online stating 2900+++ with the CM, LOL! No, your velocity is decent given the 22”. Although, it completely explains why the groups go to hell below that 41.2gr powder charge. You are right at the velocity threshold which the heavier pills like.

Yeah, accuracy falls off the table just below 2600 fps. Do you think my groups might benefit from a 130 or 120 grain VLD bullet?

[CFJunkie]

Ernest T

I have three 6.5 CMs all Savages, two with 26-inch barrels and one with a 24-inch barrel.
All three shoot accurately, but the 26-inch barrels shoot most accurately with bullets 140 grs and above.
The 24-inch barrel shoots most accurately with 130 grain bullets (Sierra TMKs and ELD-Ms).
I don't think that barrel length is the reason, because I have two Savage 308s, both with 24-inch barrels, and they show different bullet and powder preferences. One likes heavier bullets (175 gr) and the other likes lighter bullets (155 gr).

Each barrel will tell you what it shoots best.
IMHO, the wear on the barrel reamer or a lot of steel being used have more to do with bullet performance than barrel length.
Barrel length will determine velocity because of the time the bullet is being accelerated in the barrel, but I don't think it effects bullet or powder preferences.

[Dave Hoback]

Yeah, accuracy falls off the table just below 2600 fps. Do you think my groups might benefit from a 130 or 120 grain VLD bullet?

Possibly… It’s good to try many different bullets, powder, etc. Just never know what your rifle may fancy best.