Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[CFJunkie]

Had good results with the Nosler RDF 140s They averaged 0.307 with H4350 for 5-round groups - but it is a small sample. I will be hunting for more of those bullets so I can try them again.

[Ernest T]

That's good to hear, I also ordered 250 Barnes Match Burners in 140 grain.

[Fuj']

Had good results with the Nosler RDF 140s They averaged 0.307 with H4350 for 5-round groups - but it is a small sample. I will be hunting for more of those bullets so I can try them again.

140 RDF's.....42gr. Reloder 16.....BR2 primers.....010" off the lands.....Hornady brass, no turn neck.
24" Criterion / 8 twist barrel on a PTA action. Bug holes at 100.

[Ernest T]

This is the data for all the groups using 130 grain ELD-M, Winchester 760 powder, and CCI 450 magnum SRPs. The first thing I'm happy about is my ES and SD numbers are improving! I realize that these are only 3 round groups, but I've been working hard to get more consistency in my reloading techniques.

I had a little trouble with the chronograph there in the middle and had to reboot it to get it to start reading again.

I didn't see anything of interest in the 42.5 gr loads. The groups weren't terrible, but not good either. The other loads, 43.4, 44.2 and 45.1 gr all grouped better closer to the lands -- I can actually load these 130 grain ELDs pretty close to the lands and feed them from my magazine! I'll be loading some 5 round groups between these two loads to see if I can find a consistently good load.




1
Cartridge Base to lands

2.274








2
Charge
42.5 gr
Shot 1
Shot 2
Shot 3
ES
SD
Avg.
Group Size


3
CBTO
2.259
2774
2791
2794
20
9
2786
1 5/8


4
"
2.244
2825
2803
2798
27
12
2808
1 1/2


5
"
2.229
2802
2793
2802
9
4
2799
7/8


6
"
2.214
2783
2777
2797
20
8
2785
1 1/4


7
"
2.199
shots didn't register





1 1/4


8
"
2.184
2753
2709
NR


2731
7/8


9
"
2.174
Shots didn't register





1 3/8


10
"
2.164
2708
2751
2734
43
18
2751
11/16


11







2777



12
Charge
43.4 gr
Shot 1
Shot 2
Shot 3
ES
SD
Avg.
Group Size


13
CBTO
2.259
Shots didn't register








14
"
2.244
2870
2883
2875
13
7
2876
5/8


15
"
2.229
2843
2832
2840
9
6
2835
3/4


16
"
2.214
2830
2833
2837
7
2
2833
1


17
"
2.199
2843
2832
2837
11
6
2837
7/8


18
"
2.184
2811
2830
2833
22
10
2824
9/16


19
"
2.174
2808
2809
2824
16
7
2813
1 3/8


20
"
2.164
2822
2820
2813
9
4
2818
1


21





12
6
2834



22
Charge
44.2gr
Shot 1
Shot 2
Shot 3
ES
SD
Avg.
Group Size


23
CBTO
2.259
2856
2874
2870
18
8
2867
7/8


24
"
2.244
2825
2843
2836
11
5
2835
1


25
"
2.229
2873
2851
NR
22
11
2862
1 5/16


26
"
2.214
2824
2825
NR
1
1
2824
1 5/8


27
"
2.199
2860
2853
2857
7
3
2856
1 3/16


28
"
2.184
2831
2818
2833
15
7
2830
9/16


29
"
2.174
2838
2853
2845
15
6
2845
1 1/8


30
"
2.164
2819
2779
2784
40
18
2795
1


31





16
7
2839



32
Charge
45.1 gr
Shot 1
Shot 2
Shot 3
ES
SD
Avg.
Group Size


33
CBTO
2.259
2893
2889
2891
4
2
2891
5/8


34
"
2.244
2781
2762
2775
19
10
2772
1


35
"
2.229
2900
2913
2885
28
11
2899
5/8


36
"
2.214
2810
2814
2804
10
4
2809
1 1/2


37
"
2.199
2910
2918
2920
10
4
2916
1 1/2


38
"
2.184
2915
2905
2926
21
9
2915
1


39
"
2.174
2919
2920
2924
5
2
2921
1 1/2


40
"
2.164
2922
2915
2912
10
4
2916
1 3/8


41





13
6
2880

[Ernest T]

I've collected 4 additional 140 grain bullets to try out. These are the loads I've worked up from the loading data from different sources on the web. The data for Nosler, Sierra, and Barnes came from their website. The data for the Berger bullets came from shootersreference.com. Only Sierra and Hornady provided data for each velocity.

Nosler provided a starting load, mid load and max load. They also provided velocities.
Sierra provided min and max load data as well as intermediate loads and velocities for each..
Barnes only provided minimum and maximum loads with velocities and was the only manufacturer to identify a compressed load.
Shooters Reference provided the minimum load, without velocity, and maximum load, with velocity, for the Berger bullets.

Where I didn't have data for intermediate velocities, I tried to split the difference between the higher and lower powder charge. Sometimes there was only one intermediate step, but other times there were four or five.

It took over 40 grains of powder to obtain 2600 FPS with the Hornady bullets so I'm thinking I'll just start a step or two below that amount for each of the new bullets. That means I'll start the Nosler at 38.6, Barnes at 38.2, Sierra at 38.4, and Berger at 39.2.

Does this sound like a good plan?



Alliant RL-16





2300
2350
2400
2450
2500
2550
2600
2650
2700
2750
2800


Hornady 140 Gr. Match ELD-M


35.3
38.2
37
37.8
38.7
39.5
40.4
41.2
42.1


Nosler 140 Gr. CC RDF
35
35.9
36.8
37.7
38.6
39.5
40.4
41.3
42.1
42.8
43.5


Barnes 140 Gr. Match Burner



38.2
38.9
40.6
41.3
41.9
42.5c




Sierra 140 Gr. MatchKing HPBT
35
35.8
36.7
37.6
38.4
39.3
40.1
40.9
41.8
42.6
43.5


Berger 140 Gr. Match Target VLD Bullets





39.2
40.5
41.1
41.8
42.5
43.6


















































My most accurate loads with Hornady 140 Gr. ELD-M were 40.2, 40.4, and 40.6 which yielded velocities from 2610-2640 FPS

[GrenGuy]

Ernest T, look at the trouble it took to get Your RL16. With a 6.5 Creedmoor, 140grn bullet, I would not waist 1 kernel of powder on any load less than 2,600 FPS. The Berger Bullet is a prime example. It is designed for long range target and hunting. So it starts at a minimum load, that provides a velocity suitable for the designed range. Anything below that is useless information. You are testing 4 bullets. What is the end goal for each of these bullets ? It is of no value to find a tight node on the low end, only to find it does not provide enough velocity at range. The further out we go, the more velocity we need at the beginning to overcome the WIND. This is why You have been asked, What is You end goal ?

[charlie b]

When I start with a mfg load data I normally start 1gn or maybe 2gn lower than max. Load a ladder in 0.1 or 0.2gn increments up to max (or sticky extraction). These are at least 3 round groups. Once I see a node I do 5 round groups around the node to verify vel and accuracy.

I have found if I do this I use up the least amount of resources to find an accurate load.

Sometimes I also do a seating depth series. 0.005, 0.010, 0.020 from lands. 5 rounds each.

If I do want to test a jammed depth (eg, using Berger vld bullets) I will do the ladder with jammed rounds. Sometimes there is a significant difference.

I really don't care where the mfg minimum is as I never load there with jacketed ammo. I also don't really care what vel I am at as long as I am on a node. I do check to make sure I am not too far above the mfg max vel (adjusted for barrel length) for that powder/bullet. Yes, I measure vel of almost every bullet I shoot.

[GrenGuy]

^^^ excellent advice ^^^

[Ernest T]

Ernest T, look at the trouble it took to get Your RL16. With a 6.5 Creedmoor, 140grn bullet, I would not waist 1 kernel of powder on any load less than 2,600 FPS. The Berger Bullet is a prime example. It is designed for long range target and hunting. So it starts at a minimum load, that provides a velocity suitable for the designed range. Anything below that is useless information. You are testing 4 bullets. What is the end goal for each of these bullets ? It is of no value to find a tight node on the low end, only to find it does not provide enough velocity at range. The further out we go, the more velocity we need at the beginning to overcome the WIND. This is why You have been asked, What is You end goal ?


The end goal is to see if one of these bullets are more accurate out to 1200 yards than the Hornady ELD-M I've been using. I'm also learning a lot in the process, which I enjoy.



When I start with a mfg load data I normally start 1gn or maybe 2gn lower than max. Load a ladder in 0.1 or 0.2gn increments up to max (or sticky extraction). These are at least 3 round groups. Once I see a node I do 5 round groups around the node to verify vel and accuracy.

I have found if I do this I use up the least amount of resources to find an accurate load.

Sometimes I also do a seating depth series. 0.005, 0.010, 0.020 from lands. 5 rounds each.

If I do want to test a jammed depth (eg, using Berger vld bullets) I will do the ladder with jammed rounds. Sometimes there is a significant difference.

I really don't care where the mfg minimum is as I never load there with jacketed ammo. I also don't really care what vel I am at as long as I am on a node. I do check to make sure I am not too far above the mfg max vel (adjusted for barrel length) for that powder/bullet. Yes, I measure vel of almost every bullet I shoot.

Alrighty then, I'll start higher up on the list. I'm going to start with the Barnes Match Burner. Barnes's data was obtained with a 24" barrel and my rifle has a 22" barrel so I'll need a little more powder to obtain 2600 FPS -- that looks like a starting load of 41.9 Gr. of powder. The distance from cartridge base to the lands with this bullet is 2.300" which puts the COAL at 2.910. I'm thinking of using the procedure below, which is from the Berger website.

"Trying to find the CBTO that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following CBTO if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:


.010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
.040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds



Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 CBTOs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 CBTO shoots best then you can tweak the CBTO +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards)."

[Ernest T]

Another question.

I also remeasured the Hornady ELD-M case from base to lands and got .008 longer than when I initially measured the distance. I've got 800 rounds through the barrel now, does the distance increase with throat erosion?

[GrenGuy]

Another question.

I also remeasured the Hornady ELD-M case from base to lands and got .008 longer than when I initially measured the distance. I've got 800 rounds through the barrel now, does the distance increase with throat erosion?

YES...800 rounds could easily equal.008” throat erosion.

[Ernest T]

YES...800 rounds could easily equal.008” throat erosion.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping.

[charlie b]

Not sure in all calibers, but, the Hornady ELD bullets I have fired in my .308 (155 and 173) and .223 (75gn) all liked a decent jump. Kinda like Sierra SMK's that I have found like somewhere around .020 jump. Berger 155's in the .308 liked to be jammed or very close to the lands.

I do not rely on a gauge measurement of CBTO. I chamber dummy rounds seating out the bullet in a 'loose neck' case. I then set my seating die by reference off of this dummy round.

[Ernest T]

Not sure in all calibers, but, the Hornady ELD bullets I have fired in my .308 (155 and 173) and .223 (75gn) all liked a decent jump. Kinda like Sierra SMK's that I have found like somewhere around .020 jump. Berger 155's in the .308 liked to be jammed or very close to the lands.

I do not rely on a gauge measurement of CBTO. I chamber dummy rounds seating out the bullet in a 'loose neck' case. I then set my seating die by reference off of this dummy round.

They like a jump in my gun too.

How do you keep the dummy round in the correct position when you pull the case out of the chamber? When I use the gauge, even slight pressure on the bullet sticks it in the lands and I have to push it out with a 1/8" dowel or bang the butt of the gun on the work bench to dislodge the bullet.

[charlie b]

I slightly size the neck to hold the bullet. Take the ejector and extractor out of the bolt. Push gently until you can close the bolt. Then open bolt. Cleaning rod in from muzzle and push it out, also gently. If you use too much neck tension it will jam too much. It is really just enough to hold the bullet in place.

[Ernest T]

I slightly size the neck to hold the bullet. Take the ejector and extractor out of the bolt. Push gently until you can close the bolt. Then open bolt. Cleaning rod in from muzzle and push it out, also gently. If you use too much neck tension it will jam too much. It is really just enough to hold the bullet in place.

I think I'm probably too ham fisted to gently push it out!

[Ernest T]

I spent the day thinking about velocities and the load data provided by the manufacturers. I get 2620 FPS with 40.2 grains of RL-16 with a 140 grain Hornady ELD-M bullet, which on the chart provided by Hornady, is slightly less than the powder needed for 2700 FPS. That is significantly less powder than what Barnes, Nosler, Sierra or Berger call for to achieve 2700 FPS. Physics doesn't change, if 40.4 grains of powder will push a 140 grain Hornady bullet down the barrel at 2620 FPS, it should push a Barnes, Berger, or Sierra 140 grain bullet down the same barrel at the same speed. I decided to ignore the chart and loaded a Barnes Match Burner in .2 grain increments from 40.4 to 41.8 grains of powder. The high end of that range is close to what their charts call for to get 2700 FPS, but I shouldn't even have to use those loads. I'll get the velocity I need, if not, I can skip over loads to get where I need to be. Either way, I can disassemble the rounds I don't shoot and reuse them to figure out bullet seating.

[GrenGuy]

Changing bullets changes the physics. Because of the differences in construction of said bullets. There is more to it than just the bullet weight.

[Ernest T]

Changing bullets changes the physics. Because of the differences in construction of said bullets. There is more to it than just the bullet weight.
Yeah I get that, but I’m betting weight has the most impact on the first 20’ feet, which is what I’m interested in for measuring velocity. I’m starting where I think I need to be in my gun, not a generic test bed gun. This starts me well below max and I can skip loads if it’s too slow.

[GrenGuy]

You shoot at 1,200yds. I shoot at 1,000yds. I want the maximum velocity I can get when the bullet arrives at the target. My first load development is PRESSURE TEST. I do this in My garage, shooting into a suitable backstop. I start with the bullet in the lands, and work up until pressure signs become apparent. This method will indicate the max pressure the case can stand. As we back out of the lands, the pressure reduces. But now we have a base line for MAXIMUM load. With what the wind does to ballets at 600yds and beyond, I want all the velocity I can get, THAT SHOOTS ACCURATELY. That means eventually loading and tuning for the desired target range. Only the target can reveal if the level of success has been achieved.

Be safe and proceed at Your own risk !! PS ... most distance shooters find their desired loads near Max Pressure.