Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[Ernest T]

I finished load testing with RL-16 today and shorter CBTO and higher loads definitely produce better groups. These were all around 2610 FPS. The second group had a 4 fps spread from fastest to slowest. The others were more like 15-20 fps difference fastest to slowest. If I could just tighten up that one shot.... Despite that, I'm satisfied with my effort at reloading and shooting and will pick one of these loads, I just can't figure out which one yet. Now to move out toward 800 yards.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-Dg6B7sC/0/de07369d/L/IMG_0210-L.jpg
This one was not good

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-sNfN3C8/0/f6fb00b4/L/IMG_0209-L.jpg
I rarely shoot a string like this.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-j9PrGcN/0/f30173f8/L/IMG_0208-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-5XFH2H8/0/f8d57200/L/IMG_0207-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-ZKW2Vk3/0/bf940c34/L/IMG_0206-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-fvTd28W/0/e9bd931f/L/IMG_0205-L.jpg

[Ernest T]

I don't know that there is any reason to pick one length over the others since they all have four shots very close together with one separated by a fraction of an inch. I do wonder why 2.173 and 2.163 are in the red, but 2.168 is just outside when its length is in between the other two. I was aiming dead center of the red circle and the wind was almost directly behind me . I was facing almost dead north so the wind was probably gently blowing toward 350 degrees or so. I didn't touch the scope between those I posted on August 25th and today.

[charlie b]

I agree you can pick from one of several there. Same kind of issue I have with 6BR loads. There seem to be quite a few good loads.

Some might suggest the different POI is due to barrel nodes being different by just a little bit. Just like my 90ELD X ladder showed higher vel bullets impacted lower on the target rather than higher. When shooting 103ELD X they were the opposite, higher vel impacted higher.

[Ernest T]

I went with 2.163 and made 40 rounds to try out the next time I go to the range. Trouble is, I'm just about out of RL-16 now and can't find any on-line. I bought two lbs of Winchester 6.5 StaBall and two lbs of Vihtavuori 555 powder to work with after the RL-16 runs out. Those two are also in short supply and now unavailable from Brownells, Midway USA, Midsouth, Powder Valley, and Natchez.

[want2ride]

I went with 2.163 and made 40 rounds to try out the next time I go to the range. Trouble is, I'm just about out of RL-16 now and can't find any on-line. I bought two lbs of Winchester 6.5 StaBall and two lbs of Vihtavuori 555 powder to work with after the RL-16 runs out. Those two are also in short supply and now unavailable from Brownells, Midway USA, Midsouth, Powder Valley, and Natchez.
If you are in Northern MN, i could help you out with some powder. will only do a face to face trade. 2 LBS of each kind isn't a lot to build a consistent load. Midsouth has h4350, and you can buy 10 LBS at a time. Honestly i would go that route over RL16.

[Ernest T]

If you are in Northern MN, i could help you out with some powder. will only do a face to face trade. 2 LBS of each kind isn't a lot to build a consistent load. Midsouth has h4350, and you can buy 10 LBS at a time. Honestly i would go that route over RL16.

Thanks for the offer, but I live a long way from Minnesota!

[Mr.Snerdly]

"It turns out the throat in my gun is very generous, for lack of a better word."

I often wonder why Savage makes the throat so long. My 223 Axis, 243 and 22-250 all have very long throats and the bullets are a long ways off the lands, even with the heavier bullets. They still seem to shoot well though. The Savage chambers are also quite loose, or at least mine are.

[Ernest T]

"It turns out the throat in my gun is very generous, for lack of a better word."

I often wonder why Savage makes the throat so long. My 223 Axis, 243 and 22-250 all have very long throats and the bullets are a long ways off the lands, even with the heavier bullets. They still seem to shoot well though. The Savage chambers are also quite loose, or at least mine are.

I've been told that manufacturers make their guns that way to avoid liability issues with factory ammo. It's certainly more dangerous to have the bullet jammed into the lands than have to jump to reach them. I ran into two guys at my range, both shooting a Begara in 6.5 CM and they were loading and shooting just about the same length I was because the throat on both their guns were long too. They were using VHT N555 which I will give a try eventually.

[CFJunkie]

Ernest T,

I think part of the reason is that calibers like .223 and .22-250 and even 6.5mm CM and .308 can shoot bullets over a fairly wide weight range.
My .223s have shot bullets from 35 grains to 77 grains for example and even my 6.5mm CMs have shot bullets from 123 grains to 147 grains.
Just for grins, measure the bullet lengths of a .35 or 40 grain .223 and a 77 grain .223. The light bullets would fall out of the neck if you tried to seat them for a short jump.
In my rifles, the 77 grain bullets can be seated into the lands but if I tried that with a 52 grain bullet it falls out of the neck.
By the way, my rifles shoot the light bullets very accurately, even if the jump is incredibly long.
But if the chamber was short enough to seat a 52 grain bullet near the lands, the 77 grain bullets would have to be seated back so far into the case that the pressure would be much higher.

The weight range of 6.5mm CM bullets is not as severe, but there is still quite a difference between the length of a 123 ELD-M and a 147 ELD-M.
I suspect that the manufacturers are trying to accommodate all of us, those who shoot light bullets and those who shoot heavy bullets.

[wbm]

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/

[charlie b]

I shoot a lot of cast bullets in my .308 so I made a throat cast. The throat on mine is exactly SAAMI spec. For my use that is a very short throat. But, if using bullets like the Berger 155's, the throat is almost too long. When seated to lightly jam (where these Bergers are best) then the bullets are seated out long.

IMHO, the reason throats seem 'long' is due to the extended range ogives used these days. Makes for a lot of bullet far into the throat.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[Ernest T]

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/

That article gave me the confidence that I could go shorter, maybe much shorter, and find a length that would shoot well.

[CFJunkie]

For two of my rifles that shoot best in the just under 0.020 jump range, one of them shoots almost as accurately with a jump of 0.060.
The 0.060 jump is supported by almost 20 groups of data.
Maybe that will help.
I can't explain why, but the numbers say it does.

[Mr.Snerdly]

It is .200" jump to the lands on my Axis with a 69 grain Sierra with an OAL length of 2.26". Savage rifles seem to have a very long throat. I know it was less than this since it has had a fair number of rounds through it but it should not be close to being worn out. My 783 Remington is almost .100" less to the throat than the Axis. However, the Axis does seem to shoot well even with this long jump. I do seat them a little longer than 2.26, which is supposed to be the maximum length for a 223 but it feeds and chambers well at a considerably longer length. It might shoot as good at 2.26 but I feel more confident if it doesn't have such a huge jump.

[CFJunkie]

Mr.Snerdly,

Where did you get the impression that the maximum length of a .223 69 gr SMK is 2.260?
The recommended OAL for the 69 SMK is based upon the OAL limit of an AR Mag not on the chamber length.
The Savage mags and the AICS mags have a lot more OAL available than that.
My AICS mag allows up to 2.500 OAL.
I even asked Sierra about their recommendation, and they admitted that the AR mag length was a consideration.

I find you can load those 69 SMKs out as long as you have enough bullet body in the neck to maintain consistent neck tension.
Some say you need a length equivalent to the caliber in the neck. I find it is more like half that. Remember the 69 SMKs have a boat tail and that doesn't touch the neck.
I generally shoot my Savage 12 FV with 69 grain Sierra SMKs around 2.300 but I have loaded them out to as long as 2.340 as the barrel has eroded (4,000 rounds) and got good results.
They shoot great with those OALs.
I load the TMKs about 0.070 longer than the SMKs.

[wbm]

+1

[Ernest T]

I think I have it down - at least with RL-16. I shot eight, 5-round groups and they all looked similar to this one, all 5 holes were touching on all the groups. This is 41.2 grains of RL-16 at 2.163 CBTO. This load gives me a velocity right around 2640 FPS.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-2xq65b9/0/6522853e/L/IMG_0288-L.jpg

This one puzzled me because it seems far-etched that all five shots went into this hole, but unless I missed the target and backer board completely that's what happened. Since the backer is a 48" X 48" piece of fiberboard I doubt I missed it completely.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-4m5kDj6/0/ef1d716b/L/IMG_0289-L.jpg

I used CCI small rifle primers and measured the loads using a Lee beam scale which gave me very consistent velocities.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-4Mmnq97/0/c86287a4/L/IMG_0293-L.png
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-fnd4kBR/0/574cc0fb/L/IMG_0292-L.png

[Mr.Snerdly]

Nice shooting. I guess I won't ask about the Lee powder scale now. I was going to ask if it was as good as some of the others but with results like that, it is obvious it is plenty good enough. Most of the stuff I buy is Lee now. I have some RCBS but usually the Lee stuff works as good or better at 1/2-2/3 the cost.

[Ernest T]

This is representative of the groups I was getting at 200 yards. It's just inside 1 MOA, but several of the rounds are in really close proximity, which makes me think I can do much better. I think this is more a result of my shooting than the loads I made. I have a 6-24X50 Arkin FFP scope on the rifle and only used 16X so these 8" circles look pretty small. My plan is to eventually get out to 800 yards and I didn't want to use up the the range of the scope at shorter distances. I used the Hornady 4DOF calculator to adjust the scope and think I over estimated the wind which caused the impact to be a little right. The hold over of 1.61 MOA seems pretty good.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-7vWQ2Hk/0/80101140/L/IMG_0294-L.jpg

[Ernest T]

Nice shooting. I guess I won't ask about the Lee powder scale now. I was going to ask if it was as good as some of the others but with results like that, it is obvious it is plenty good enough. Most of the stuff I buy is Lee now. I have some RCBS but usually the Lee stuff works as good or better at 1/2-2/3 the cost.

Its funny you mention RCBS because I use their competition power measure for 45 ACP, 9 MM and .223 Remington, but measure each powder load manually for the 6.5 CM with the Lee Safety Scale. I've checked it against a couple digital scales and its definitely more consistent. Some people don't like Lee, but I've had good luck with most of it. Their auto drum powder measure is very accurate, but I couldn't get mine to not leak Hogdon BL-C(2) powder and that's why I switched to the RCBS.