Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[Ernest T]

New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator. The fired brass in my rifle measures 1.537+ or - a thou and a half, so I knock the shoulder back about .003 with the FL sizing die before reloading.

I talked to a couple guys at the range a month or so ago and changed the way I prep brass for reloading.

I used to de-prime, clean with a rotary tumbler, dry in the oven, then lube, re-size, measure and trim if necessary. Then I'd wipe down the outside of the case with a rag and the inside with a Q-tip, load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.

Now, I lube the dirty brass, de-prime and re-size before trimming and then clean and dry. Once its clean, I load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.

[Robinhood]

Your headspace may be off. If you are measuring your brass correctly, it should fall somewhere 1.5438 and 1.5508. Measure the length of your spacer(should be 1") and inspect the inside corner of your .400" bushing. If it is worn it will give a bad reading. It is just a reference but I would like to know exactly where i was on new brass at least.

Also .003" shoulder bump is slightly excessive. Not to much but dropping to .002"may be a better place.

If you are firing your brass often consider annealing every 2 to 4 firings to ensure they are bumping consistently and the neck tension is the same. Also consider the amount of neck tension to be a tuning aid.

Work to get consistent powder charges where the deviation is at least .05 grain.

If you ever start seeing deep scratches on the axis of the brass it may be lodged grit in your die.

Play with seating depth when you find a good load. It may get better.

https://snell.ddns.net/SnellsNotebook/images/SAAMI%206.5%20Creedmoor%20Case.png

[Ernest T]

You apparently haven't read the entire thread -- its all been about finding a seating depth that returns adequate accuracy.

[Robinhood]

You apparently haven't read the entire thread -- its all been about finding a seating depth that returns adequate accuracy.I do believe I have read this.
"New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator". This tells me that it is possible that at least some of your dimensional inspections my be questionable.
New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator. The fired brass in my rifle measures 1.537+ or - a thou and a half, so I knock the shoulder back about .003 with the FL sizing die before reloading.I talked to a couple guys at the range a month or so ago and changed the way I prep brass for reloading. I used to de-prime, clean with a rotary tumbler, dry in the oven, then lube, re-size, measure and trim if necessary. Then I'd wipe down the outside of the case with a rag and the inside with a Q-tip, load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp. Now, I lube the dirty brass, de-prime and re-size before trimming and then clean and dry. Once its clean, I load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.So I was responding to this not the intire thread. I wasn't offering anything but help...like the guys at the range.Why is new Lapua brass measuring .014" under SAAMI? .008" under your obviously short headspaced chamber? This caught my eye. I try not to abuse my expensive brass and was wondering why someone else wood. I apologize for not sticking to the topic.

[Ernest T]

I do believe I have read this.. This tells me that it is possible that at least some of your dimensional inspections my be questionable.So I was responding to this not the intire thread. I wasn't offering anything but help...like the guys at the range.Why is new Lapua brass measuring .014" under SAAMI? .008" under your obviously short headspaced chamber? This caught my eye. I try not to abuse my expensive brass and was wondering why someone else wood. I apologize for not sticking to the topic.

I cannot explain why those case base to shoulder measurements don't match the SAAMI specs -- your question makes me wonder why they don't. I rechecked the measurements and they are what they are. I believe them to be accurate based on other measurements like case length and diameter.

That made me wonder about factory ammunition so I checked the two types of Hornady cartridges I have on hand. They are not Lapua, but they still have to fit the chamber of all the different brands out there.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-nBn9bjs/0/0fc3cfcd/L/IMG_0299-L.jpg

Hornady Black is a HPBT.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-KQnV3zd/0/6872928f/L/IMG_0303-L.jpg

The case base to shoulder measured almost exactly what I get when I measure new Lapua brass.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-2HGbc3j/0/5f697236/L/IMG_0305-L.jpg

I also had ELD Match on hand which is what I load.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-DQ4XQf4/0/7a8409f2/L/IMG_0307-L.jpg

Same measurement.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-MHsPp2V/0/27abedef/L/IMG_0306-L.jpg

This is a new Lapua case out of my box.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-65SPT49/0/0ad33721/L/IMG_0297-L.jpg

Check out this guys look at new Lapua 6.5 CM brass.

http://www.65guys.com/a-look-at-lapua-6-5-creedmoor-brass/

So either my measurements are correct, or a piece of my gear is out of spec and affecting my measurements. Since the two measurements I make with this setup, base to shoulder case length and case base to ogive are relative measurements, the actual number is irrelevant. On the other hand, maybe manufacturers make the cases smaller so there will be no question about the cartridge fitting all guns chambered in 6.5 creedmoor.

[Robinhood]

Very interesting on their base to datum length. The are using a whidden tool and no telling about the radius or ability to accurately zero. As I mentioned before, a small radius at the mouth of the .400 diameter shoulder gauge will decrease your BtS dimension. Ask me how I know....If you are zeroing correctly(I trust you are) there is no other explanation. I agree that it is just a reference but good to know what is going on with your tools in the long run. It was also telling that they kept having to adjust the die and bushing for spring back as the brass work hardened. Good article and thanks for posting the link Ernest. The Saul Goodman reference was classic.

[charlie b]

I have never measured base to shoulder on any cartridge/case I have used. I just set the sizing dies so my bolt closes easily. Once a case has been fired in my chamber it really doesn't matter what the measurement is. The only detrimental effect of too much headspace (I am talking a little too much, not a tenth of an inch) is a bit shorter case life. I doubt that .006" will make that much difference.

To get to your measurements, RH may be on the right track. Almost all dies leave a very slight 'donut' at the base of the neck. FL size dies leave the least. If that is the case then your measurement technique might be measuring to that 'donut' instead of the actual shoulder. You might try using a Sharpie on the neck and shoulder next time you size a case and see where the die is 'moving brass'.

[Ernest T]

I just measure the base to shoulder so I can bump it back a little and feel confident I actually moved brass. I looked at my .400 collet and it doesn't have a noticeable radius on it, but we're talking thousandths of an inch so it may not be readily visible.

Up above, Robin Hood asked if I anneal brass and up until this point I haven't. The only other case I reload that has a shoulder and neck is .223 Remington, and I find more brass at the range than I can reload. Case life hasn't been very important.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is a different story. I bought a hundred rounds of Hornady factory ammunition and was going to start reloading with those cases, but they require large primers and I haven't found any. Those cases are cleaned and sitting in a container in my reloading cabinet waiting on the world to get back to semi-normal. I ended up buying 200 Lapua small primer cases and have just finished loading the last case of that lot. Now I'm getting ready to load (reload?) for the second time. I watched a lot of YouTube videos on annealing and all the different methods available and decided to go with the keep it simple method. I've owned the gun since July and have shot exactly 170 rounds out of it, so I'm not exactly a high volume shooter. I watched a guy anneal using a torch while holding the brass in his hand and that appealed to me since it will keep me from accidently over-heating the case.

So, with not a little trepidation, I gave it a shot. I lit the torch, adjusted it for a short flame and set it down on the work bench. Then I stuck a case into the flame, keeping the case mouth pointing away from the torch and the blue flame just short of the neck shoulder junction. I spun it back and forth with my finger tips while counting to four -- a number I settled on because people said that was enough to anneal the case without heating it excessively . I've heard some people advocated for a count of 6 or more, but four is enough to get it to change color and the case head isn't warmed up at that point. I also tried a count of 6 and the case head is just getting uncomfortably hot when you reach 6. Its the difference between casually dropping the case into the pan or throwing it. I didn't see a noticeable difference in color between the two. I did 40 cases in less than 5 minutes.

This is what the cases look like after four seconds. I mis-aimed the flame on a couple of the cases and the discoloration didn't move much past the corner of the shoulder. I'm pretty happy with this outcome and they look almost exactly like the Lapua brass as it comes from the factory.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-5j7P4Xw/0/d7208e74/L/IMG_0311-L.jpg

[Dave Hoback]

I use a torch as well. Mapp gas torch. But I use a cordless drill with a socket to spin the case while I’m heating. Works nicely. Eventually I do want to rig up an Induction Coil.

I just use the standard Hornady Comparator to measure brass to the Ogive. However, I do still measure COAL as I do load within my magazine. Which at the moment is like 2.845” which is about .020” off the lands. And even that was after I throated longer. This Shillen 260 Rem barrel was unusually SHORT throated; was actually like LOW 2.700’s when I first purchased it. I throated to just about 2.865” or so(with 140gr SMK’s), as that is the MAX my Magpul mags will load anyway. And I do prefer the . I’ll load longer when I rebarrel to 260AI in the future. At that point I’ll use the 2.950” steel mags.

[Robinhood]

I went the hot gas early on. I had a hard time keeping things consistent so I backed away and started using propane again with the case in the cooler part of the flame. I go right at 6 seconds on 308 sized cases and slightly shorter time for Creedmoor. Watching for the line to develop below the shoulder while turning in a drill with a homemade holder. I will see if i can make a few extra and send one your way.

[Ernest T]

I loaded 20 cases with Winchester StaBall 6.5 and Hornady 140 ELD Match bullets and took them to the range this morning. I loaded 5 each with 39.7, 41.3, 42.1 and 42.9 gr. of powder at 2.163 CBTO. The two lower weight loads didn't group well, but both the higher weight loads grouped under 5/8". The first two groups were so bad I was totally surprised by the second two. Its amazing how quickly things can change when trying out new loads. While I was pleased with the groups, I wasn't satisfied with the velocity. The higher load weight load of 42.9 barely averaged 2600 FPS. I was getting mid 2600s out of Alliant RL-16 and would like to get that out of this powder. To do that, I'd probably have to use the max load listed in the Hornady book, but I'm not sure of the ramifications of doing that. None of my cases are showing any signs of over pressure so I think it would be okay. What do you think? Is it worth it for an extra 40-50 FPs? I don't think it matters at 100 yards, but it could at 800.

This was the 42.1 gr. group, The flyer was a little farther out with the 42.9 Gr. group.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-QTWQppS/0/1dcfb4b3/L/IMG_0314-L.jpg

[charlie b]

Nice group.

Look at a ballistics chart. 50fps isn't that much even at 1000yd. And, it is far better to have a tiny group at 2600 than a not so tiny one at 2650.

RL-16 will probably change more than that going from cold to hot days.

[celltech]

IMR load data shows 44gr as a max charge. If the case is not full yet keep on going...

[Ernest T]

IMR load data shows 44gr as a max charge. If the case is not full yet keep on going...

My Hornady book says 43.7 is the max load with the Hornady 140 ELD-M. It's a long bullet so that might make a difference. I'll have to check the case with a max load to see if its full.

[Ernest T]

Nice group.

Look at a ballistics chart. 50fps isn't that much even at 1000yd. And, it is far better to have a tiny group at 2600 than a not so tiny one at 2650.

RL-16 will probably change more than that going from cold to hot days.

StaBall 6.5 isn't supposed change with weather, but RL-16 is supposed to be pretty consistent too so who knows. I shoot in the heat, but not so much in the cold.

[celltech]

Use H4350 if you want temp stability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcy8zqclIns

[Ernest T]

Use H4350 if you want temp stability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcy8zqclIns

I just ordered some. It's a bad time to reload if you like to use only one powder.

[celltech]

Just as a point of reference...most of my 6.5 loads are ~42.5gr of H4350 behind a 140 ELD-M. I have a Savage 12FV wearing a 16" X-Cal barrel and with that load in Lapua SRP I am getting 2620fps. I did have to get the bolt bushed and the firing pin ground down to .062" to stop primers from blanking.

[Ernest T]

Just as a point of reference...most of my 6.5 loads are ~42.5gr of H4350 behind a 140 ELD-M. I have a Savage 12FV wearing a 16" X-Cal barrel and with that load in Lapua SRP I am getting 2620fps. I did have to get the bolt bushed and the firing pin ground down to .062" to stop primers from blanking.

That's a heavier load than what's listed in my Hornady book, the maximum is 41.5 gr. What's blanking?

[celltech]

It's a stout load....no doubt. Blanking is when the little disk of primer metal that the firing pin hits blows out and leaves a hole in the primer. The Savage firing pin is pretty big and the bolt hole is sloppy big for the pin to travel through. With the small primers and hot loads they crater pretty bad and can end up "blanking" out.

Custom actions will have smaller pins and tighter tolerances on the bolt hole to stop this from happening. For ~$65 you can have a Savage bolt milled out, slug inserted, smaller hole milled, and the firing pin thinned down. Works wonders if you want to push the loads higher...