Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[wbm]

I consider going to a consistent 1/4MOA takes 10 times the attention to detail and precision in measuring equipment than it does to reach 1/2MOA.

For sure. Seems it's that way for a lot of things in life.

[Ernest T]

So, as a 'minimum' level of reloading procedure.... When I set up for the 6BR I didn't want to spend a lot of money. The result is a 1/2MOA rifle. Probably a little better than that but I am just not that consistent a shooter to do better. Even a tiny error when shooting takes a 1/3MOA group and turns it into a 1MOA.

Shilen match barrel on my 12BVSS. Not bedded, just the factory pillars. Vortex Viper 5-25x50 scope. Shot off front rest and rear bag.

Lapua brass. Only prep was chamfer case mouths. Forster full length size die. Redding competition seat die. Lyman Gen6 automatic powder dispenser. Lee Loadmaster press.

I do not anneal cases. Shoot. resize, prime, powder, seat bullet, repeat. I rarely clean the cases, just wipe off the necks. I use Hornady One Shot lube. The bullets I have used so far are all Hornady, 90 ELDX, 103ELDX, 108ELDmatch. The 103's have been most accurate so far. Pretty consistent 1/2MOA and many groups less than that. I have 10 reloads on the cases right now.

One of these days I'll try some Berger, Lapua or Vapor Trail bullets.

Keep in mind that many F-class and bench rest shooters would consider this a 'loser'. They go to extremes to get down to 1/4MOA or less. I consider going to a consistent 1/4MOA takes 10 times the attention to detail and precision in measuring equipment than it does to reach 1/2MOA.

This is definitely a work in progress. I'm giving the "don't clean the brass" method a try. I had been using stainless pins and a rotary tumbler, but then I read a post about the case mouth getting beat up and causing inconsistent neck tension. I don't think I had that issue because I trim the brass every time I reload it so its all the same length. That should have removed any irregularities on the case mouth.

[charlie b]

I would disagree about the SS pins being a problem. I use them when I do clean brass and they really don't change anything. Seating force is a little different with clean brass than dirty. I don't see it making a huge difference at my level. As long as all the ones I have with me are done the same way, the groups stay 'normal'.

FWIW, my .308 is a little different. I frequently just neck size (Lee collet die), no cleaning of brass, no lube in neck (powder fouling is a decent 'lube'). "Felt" seating force is about the same and I see no difference in group sizes.

Keep in mind there always seems to be one or two pieces of brass that act different than the rest in a batch. I can feel it during one of the sizing or seating operations. When I do feel a difference I pull that piece and inspect it. If it is ok I just mark the base and load it with the rest. Sometimes it shoots just fine, sometimes it doesn't and I trash it. FYI, this is also how I discover a case that has a split neck.

Just pay attention to what is going on in the reloading process and make notes at the range. I keep track of where each bullet goes (when I am punching paper) and the velocity. I also note when a round is hard to chamber or extract. That case will get extra scrutiny before it is reloaded.

[Ernest T]

Have you ever watched Kieth Glasscock's YouTube stuff. He is a very accomplished shooter and has changed my paradigm about how to get there from here. Sadly I am retired from all of this for the most part so It I am in no position to mimic his efforts but I believe that his sermon is the/a path to nirvana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Winning in the Wind Kieth Glasscock https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoXDt-qeFpLSEFf06E0yT7A
I've already watched a lot of his videos -- I didn't recognize the name.

[Robinhood]

I've already watched a lot of his videos -- I didn't recognize the name. Cool. Obviously you took in what you saw.

[charlie b]

I especially liked his video on fliers :)

[Ernest T]

Cool. Obviously you took in what you saw.

Yeah, but he says a lot and there are a lot of videos!

Here's where I'm at. I still haven't given up on the arbor press and dial indicator to seat bullets, but I need to make a other improvements anyway.

1. I want to use a full length sizing die to bump the shoulder back .002". I've read you can do that with just about any non-collet die by removing the mandrel with the sizing ball. I need to determine if my Lee sizing die is up to the task.
2. To set neck tension with an expander mandrel, I need an expander die body and mandrel .001-.003 smaller than bullet diameter.
3. I need to get a better bullet seating die.
4. Stop crimping bullets.

Does that sound reasonable?

[charlie b]

Look at Eric Cortina's method for setting FL size dies. I would not be concerned with how many thousandths it is set back, just that it is 'enough' to fit your chamber and allows for smooth action. Why would you remove the mandrel? Just curious.

Why can't you use the proper mandrel with your FL or neck size die?

[Ernest T]

Look at Eric Cortina's method for setting FL size dies. I would not be concerned with how many thousandths it is set back, just that it is 'enough' to fit your chamber and allows for smooth action. Why would you remove the mandrel? Just curious.

Why can't you use the proper mandrel with your FL or neck size die?

Its just a different method I read about.

1. Full length sizing die with ball
2. Bushing die
3. Using a expander mandrel

With number one, you are limited to combos provided by the die maker. Two might be inconsistent if your brass is not a consistent thickness at the neck since you are sizing the outside of the brass neck. With three, you know bullet diameter and can choose the inside neck diameter to give you whatever tension you desire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXU9oSX0qAY

[GrenGuy]

Ernest T, what is Your end goal ? You are delving into some aspects of reloading that are precision methods for competition. Do You intend to compete, and if not, how will You judge Your success ?

[charlie b]

...

[Ernest T]

Ernest T, what is Your end goal ? You are delving into some aspects of reloading that are precision methods for competition. Do You intend to compete, and if not, how will You judge Your success ?

I don't have an end goal except small groups at 100 yards. I don't shoot competition, but I am working my way towards shooting at 1000 yards. I'm at 500 and that was surprisingly easy to accomplish. I'm thinking I need to tighten up my reloading technique as the range increases.

Right now, I can tell the neck tension in my loads is not consistent just by the way the bullet seats. The force required is inconsistent, so I'm trying to address that issue. I can shoot six five-shot groups and get three of them into 1/2" and three with flyers in them. At first, I thought it was probably my shooting, but it could also be my loads.

I figure I'll try different things until I get it right or get tired of fiddling with it.

[Ernest T]

So lets assume you wanted to switch from sizing the case neck with an expander ball in a full length sizing die, to using an expander in a separate step so you could adjust neck size for different neck tensions. Your options are to buy a full set of 11 expanders for $174 or the individual expanders for $21.50 each. I'm thinking that most of those sizes, included in the set, aren't going to be used as they cover a pretty wide range of sizes. The question is, which size expander do you start with? I don't have a cylinder gauge small enough to measure the case neck I'm getting from my Lee full length sizing die, but the expander ball measures .262". That seems like the logical place to start -- and maybe buy the size .001 above and below that expander. They also sell sizes expanders .0005 above and below .262 so you can get half sizes. Any opinions?

[charlie b]

One thing you should keep in mind. How much case tension isn't really the issue. It is how consistent is the case tension.

The idea behind custom necks and such is to reduce the amount of sizing needed to reload. The reason for that is to work the brass less, introducing less stresses in the brass (and prolonging case neck life). Unless you change to a custom chamber you are kinda stuck with how much the case will expand during firing. If you want a case to match your chamber you can go to Forstner or Hornady and get custom dies made to match your fired brass.
---------------------
Forstner Custom Neck Honing (Optional)

Diamond stoning process enlarges the inside dia. to prevent over-sizing due to thick neck walls. Useful for brands of brass cases with thicker neck walls or when you do not intend to outside neck turn case necks that have thickened after repeated firings. Please note:
1. No more than .008″ stock removal from your existing die neck diameter is possible.
2. Honing is done in increments of one half thousandth of an inch (.0005″), meaning that your specified inside diameter must be either .XXX0″ or .XXX5″.
Custom machining cost (below) applie,

And from the accurate shooter folks:
1. Purchase a Forster full-length sizing die. Measure a loaded round with a bullet seated, and note the outside neck diameter. Then send your die to Forster and for $10 (plus shipping) Forster will hone the neck to the dimension you specify. For bolt guns, we suggest .002" under the neck diameter of a loaded round. For gas guns, go .003" under. Total cost is about $45.00, including the die.
2. Hornady can make you a custom full-length sizing die for about $75.00 plus shipping. Just send them a few fired cases and a reamer print (if you have it). They can create a die that gives you ideal neck tension, as well as just the right amount of sizing at the shoulder and web. Call Hornady and ask for Lonnie Hummel. Scott Parker recently had a die like this made and he reports: "Average runout for 65 rounds was .0004". All 65 rounds showed less than .001" runout."
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Another path would be to use bushing dies. FL or neck size only. Then you can buy the die and a neck bushing of your choice.

The next step in all this would be if you decide to neck turn all of your brass. That is something that used to be common due to inconsistencies in factory brass. These days a lot of factory brass is pretty good. And you can always get Lapua or Norma if you want better quality.

And don't forget the annealing part. If you choose to go that route then you need to anneal each one equally.

[GrenGuy]

I decap in a separate step with the LEE Universal decapping die. This gives Me a feel for the condition of the primer pockets. I full length size and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die. I neck size with the LEE Collet Die. This aligns the inside of the neck with the center or the case. Minimal runout. It makes the inside neck smooth and pushes irregularities to the outside. I set neck tension with a mandrel. Sinclair Expander Die from Brownells $39.99, stainless steel mandrels $9.99 ea.

Now, David Tubb (knowledgeable, look Him up) has stated “if You load into the lands, neck tension is irrelevant”??? That’s what He said.
Many precision shooters load into the lands.

But again, none of this matters unless a specific goal is desired. Like winning a match.

“acceptable accuracy” can be achieved with a Model 94 Winchester shooting factory ammo. JUST MY OPINION

[Ernest T]

Since I had a few cratered primers, I sent the bolt to Desh to work on the firing pin and install the bolt lift modification. This is what the bolt, firing pin and primers look like after the bolt work. I don't see a lot of difference, but the primers aren't cratered at the max load like they were before. I still have not achieved the accuracy or consistency with StaBall 6.5 that I did with the RL-16. Groups are + or - one inch and I don't have any 1/2 inch or smaller groups. I'm thinking I need to start adjusting the CBTO to see if that will tighten up the groups.


https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-KBGptdJ/0/4baa6bb3/L/IMG_0473-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/i-N4ncpFZ/0/1f263889/L/IMG_0472-L.jpg

[Ernest T]

I loaded 10 rounds each with a couple different loads, 42.1 gr of StaBall 6.5 and 42.7 gr of StaBall 6.5 and did not crimp the cases as I have been.

For the 42.1 load, the ES was 20 FPS and SD was 8 FPS. Both five round groups were on the order of 1 1/8". It wasn't a case of a flyer, the holes were just not that close to each other. Velocity averaged 2641 FPS over the ten rounds. Not crimping seems to really tighten up the ES and SD.

For the 42.7 load, the ES was 42 FPS and SD 14. Two of the ten rounds were considerably slower than the other eight and again it could have been my powder loading. The groups were on the order of 1" with an average velocity of 2648.

Both loads were a little hotter than I settled on for Alliant RL-16 which was just over 2600 FPS and I think I got better groups with a little less powder.

[Ernest T]

I'm still mulling over how setting neck tension works and which one I would like to try. The expander mandrel in my Lee sizing die is .262", given the diameter of a 6.5 mm bullet is .264", I have .001 or .002 of tension depending on springback. I wasn't familiar with neck bushing dies so I did a little reading about them. As I understand it, you are setting neck tension by measuring the outside of the case. That seems like a roundabout way to go about it doesn't it?

[Whynot]

I have not read this whole thing so this may have been said earlier.....

It may seem like a roundabout way to go about it- but they are doing it for a reason.

On your Lee die it has to be able to size brass with a huge variety in brass thickness on the neck. So even if you are running brass with a thin neck it needs to size it down smaller than the expander mandrel- so that it sets the proper tension when you pull it back through. Now when you have thick brass it is still sizing the outside down to the same dimension- but the inside is way smaller than it needs to be- and the expander will take it back to the correct spec as it passes back. This is working the brass more than a bushing die does- and brass gets hard as it gets worked.

[Ernest T]

I have not read this whole thing so this may have been said earlier.....

It may seem like a roundabout way to go about it- but they are doing it for a reason.

On your Lee die it has to be able to size brass with a huge variety in brass thickness on the neck. So even if you are running brass with a thin neck it needs to size it down smaller than the expander mandrel- so that it sets the proper tension when you pull it back through. Now when you have thick brass it is still sizing the outside down to the same dimension- but the inside is way smaller than it needs to be- and the expander will take it back to the correct spec as it passes back. This is working the brass more than a bushing die does- and brass gets hard as it gets worked.

Still not seeing it. The expander ball doesn't pass through the neck when the case is in fully inserted into the sizing die right? So you are not materially changing the thickness of the neck brass because there is only pressure on it from one direction at a time. You get pressure from the outside of the case when the case is fully inserted into the die and pressure from the inside as the expander ball is removed when the case is withdrawn rom the die. Don't you end up with a thicker outside case neck measurement if you start out with thick brass, and smaller outside case neck measurement with thinner brass? The inside measurement in both instances is the thickness of the expander ball minus spring-back right? How does changing the neck bushing alter tension if you pull the expander ball through the case after sizing the outside of the neck?

On Edit: So the bushings allow you to adjust for thicker and thinner brass, but have no affect on the inside diameter of the neck?