Anyone Currently Shooting a Savage Model 12 LRPV ?

[Turkeytider]

Congratulations!!! Especially with factory ammo. Will make it hard to not use the expensive stuff :) Which is why I ended up handloading for the .223

Yep, about the best I can manage, on average, is 0.5MOA. Every now and then, the stars will align, I'll actually do everything right, and a 0.3MOA group will appear :) It does help if the gun is capable and I've paid attention to the handloads. I have had a couple 0.1 or 0.2 groups over the years, but, those are just luck.

Thanks Charlie. Definitely think I`ve got the hardware to work my way out to 500 yards. The limiting factor will be the shooter.

[Pjohn]

I have a savage model 12 and it’s the Beas and most accurate rifle I have ever owned. Stock action and criterion barrel. Just last week I shot a grout 1.5 inch width and 1” elevation at 500 meters. 1500 rounds on the barrel, just checking if it still had enough accuracy left in it. I decided it would make it to the end of the benchrest season.

[Turkeytider]

I have a savage model 12 and it’s the Beas and most accurate rifle I have ever owned. Stock action and criterion barrel. Just last week I shot a grout 1.5 inch width and 1” elevation at 500 meters. 1500 rounds on the barrel, just checking if it still had enough accuracy left in it. I decided it would make it to the end of the benchrest season.

So 1500 rounds is enough to question precision? I hope I get considerably more than that out of my Model 12 in .223. Then again, I`m not competing, just trying to bang steel .

[charlie b]

Don't worry about barrel life with the .223. My Axis barrel was still capable of 0.5MOA after 4500 rounds. It is in a box waiting to see if I will every use it again.

I would brag about the .308 but most of the bullets through it have been cast (getting close to 6000). :)

[Turkeytider]

Thanks Charlie. Definitely think I`ve got the hardware to work my way out to 500 yards. The limiting factor will be the shooter.

Range report: Started the journey out to 500 yards today by shooting some steel targets at 200 and 300. I didn`t measure groups or anything but the LRPV banged them with no problem. All I did was point it and then got out of the way! Frontier(Hornady) 68 grain OTM rounds. It was fun!

[Dave Hoback]

Good stuff.. Glad you’re enjoying your new rig. :tea:

[charlie b]

ROFLMAO Now you are hooked :)

[Turkeytider]

Thanks gents. The last time I shot a rifle at targets at these ranges was when I was working for Uncle Sam back in the 70`s. This is a lot more fun! My performance with an M-16 was "inconsistent " out around 300 yards/meters ( M-14 was another matter! ), so it was nice to get a little " payback" at that range, LOL. Looking forward to getting back out and going further.

[Palmafiddleman]

Congratulations. I have a Model 12 long range target rifle that I shoot Palma and long range prone. The rifle is great. Ergonomics great on laminate prone stock. I also like the target Accutrigger. The .308 has a 1:13 twist 30 in. barrel meant for 155 gr bullets, but the rifle shoots the heavier 175-178 gr bullets very well which I prefer. I also have a barrel chambered for 6mm SLR that also shoots great.
So enjoy your adventure with your new rifle.

[jkv45]

Congratulations. I have a Model 12 long range target rifle that I shoot Palma and long range prone. The rifle is great. Ergonomics great on laminate prone stock. I also like the target Accutrigger. The .308 has a 1:13 twist 30 in. barrel meant for 155 gr bullets, but the rifle shoots the heavier 175-178 gr bullets very well which I prefer. I also have a barrel chambered for 6mm SLR that also shoots great.
So enjoy your adventure with your new rifle.

Why did they go with the slow twist, and why does it shoot the heavy bullets so well?

Seems like that would go against most common theories on stabilizing heavy bullets.

Thanks.

[charlie b]

It is kinda backwards, but, the longer barrels allow a bit more vel, which means longer/heavier bullets can be stabilized.

The slower twist (and longer barrel) is used with the 155's so a bit more vel could be eeeked out of them. Less energy to spin them up means more energy to push the bullet. The longer barrel is also good for a longer sight radius.

Rules: A Palma rifle consists of a single shot bolt action rifle weighing less than 6 kg (13.2lbs) in 7.62mm NATO caliber (.308 Winchester) firing a 155 grain palma bullet. US Palma rules allow any weight bullets, NRA Match and Service Rifles.

[Palmafiddleman]

Adding to what Charlie b said, 155 gr bullets are required for those who shoot on the international team. There are three members of my club who are on the current US Palma team. Those of us who will never be on the international team can shoot the bullet we want, even at the nationals (Camp Perry, Camp Atterbury). My club sponsored a "Full Bore" match earlier this year where the 155 gr was required. Situations like this are the only time you see it mandatory. At the full bore match we also shot "two to a mound" rather than a single string. That was a challenge to stay in position a lot longer.

[Palmafiddleman]

Why does my barrel with the 13 twist shoot the heavier bullets well? I might say that maybe I am lucky it does. Quite possibly not all barrels of same twist/length would do it.

[charlie b]

One reason is bullet length, at least for me. The 155 Berger Full Bores that I shoot are longer than the 175SMK's that I like for shooting at 1000yd. (I am using a 10 twist so this is a different issue).

[Dave Hoback]

Not just for yours Charlie. That’s how it is for every gun. It’s not weight that dictates twist needed, it’s bullet length. And while the norm has been that typically the heavier the bullet, the longer it is, there have been several lighter bullets in a specific caliber, that are longer than their heavier counterparts.

As Charlie mentioned, those Berger 155 Full Bore’s are a perfect example. Very long for for a 155 30cal. So if that is your specimen for example, that answers why. But in the world of firearms, these contraptions do some strange things at times that defy logic. Just something to ponder.

[charlie b]

There is sound physics reasons for all of this. The simplified stability equations work most of the time, but, others require the use of the more detailed equations that take into account the specific aerodynamics of the bullet being used.

And sometimes it can be atmospheric conditions. The bullet stability depends on the density of the air. Most of the time we shoot when it is closer to std conditions, but, if we go out when it is very cold then some of the loads we use might not work.

The manufacturers recommend certain twist rates based on the extremes. They have to. If Sierra made their Match Kings and recommended a twist rate that would not work at below freezing temps, they they would be turned away from military contracts (and many hunters). So, they are very conservative.

[jkv45]

Thanks guys.

One more question - is a 175 superior to a 155 in terms of wind deflection?

[Palmafiddleman]

In general the advise is to use the heavier weight bullet for its caliber for its ability to resist wind deflection. The 155's were chosen to create the maximum test for a rifleman/competitor in wind reading and adjustment before executing the next shot. When shooting "2 or 3 to a mound" you will have a limited time to break your shot when it is your turn. You may not have the luxury of waiting for your preferred condition to re-appear. By the way, .308 FTR shooters use the heavy, 200, 220 grs etc. class of bullet weights.

[charlie b]

Blue is the Lapua 155gn Scenar factory load
Green is the Lapua 185gn Scenar factory load

Note the starting velocity, I suspect from a 24" or 26" barrel. I picked a zero range of 300yd

You can notice the wind drift differences in the two bullets. This was for a 5mph wind




Range
Drop
(inches)
Velocity
Energy
Wind drift
(inches)
Time
(milliseconds)














0
-1.4867
-1.4837
2822
2477
2740
2520
0.0156
0.0178
0
0


200
4.9646
6.0442
2471
2280
2101
2135
1.3035
0.9238
228
253


400
-11.5335
-13.2674
2145
2091
1583
1796
5.5292
3.7925
488
528


600
-58.5207
-64.4834
1843
1911
1169
1500
13.3760
8.8903
790
828


800
-146.8517
-153.9021
1566
1740
844
1243
25.7532
16.5333
1143
1157


1000
-292.6009
-289.4278
1310
1577
591
1021
43.9179
27.0994
1562
1519


1200
-520.7133
-481.2653
1099
1422
416
830
69.5685
41.0601
2066
1920


1400
-862.0448
-742.0185
1013
1275
353
668
101.0725
58.9821
2637
2366




I can say I like shooting the 175SMK's at 1000yd more than the 155 Bergers. I can adjust for wind easier. I also think the heavier bullets make for a lower ES/SD for me, which results in smaller groups. The only thing I have to overcome is the recoil. I am not consistent enough with hold (12lb rifle) over a long string. Which is why my 1000yd gun is a 6BR these days. :)

[Dave Hoback]

If that ain’t about the most confusing chart I ever done seen! So, “A” (Blue) is the 180gr.. but it’s in green columns? And since when is a 180gr going to be higher velocity than 155gr? Sure those aren’t reversed?