Bad Bore

[Dave Hoback]

Hylander, easy man. Take a breath. Tommy wasn’t referring to your intellectual capacity in a diminutive manner. He was simply stating certain truths. It’s not that anyone is discounting you specifically.. it’s like I said previously, we’ve seen posts identical to yours with almost clock-like repetition. And all the stories generally follow the same guidelines. “Person gets new savage.. decides to borescope… sees marks… convinces themselves barrel is trash & commits to sending back.” And then when we here tell them these marks are common, and generally don’t hurt accuracy, their story tends to change. It morphs into it had bad accuracy all the while! (Even though accuracy was never mentioned in their initial post.) Now you did complain of Copper fouling, yet I haven’t met a barrel yet that was “easy” for Copper to clean out 100%. And barrel I have, I can clean until it’s shiny new! Let it sit a night and put a solvent patch down it next day. Some fouling will still come out.

All I can say is good luck, and hope the replacement looks better to you. But regardless, I would actually shoot at least 100yds then test it… BEFORE you condemn the barrel.

[Slowpoke Slim]

Dave,

Respectfully, you are telling the wrong poster to calm down and take a breath.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way. However tomme is just flat out over the top with his attitude. No way he "doesn't know" how he's coming across.

Not the first time I've encountered this exact same phenomenon since I've been back here. Some kind of cultural change in the forums over the last few years? Honestly, I don't care, it doesn't impress.

Not everyone who posts here is a "noob". Like Hylander, I myself also have tons of real world experience in this area. Been handloading since 1975, worked in the gun retail business for 20-ish years, shot competitively in service rifle, sillywet, and some benchrest, best friend was a gunsmith and master machinist. We shouldn't have to give our entire life's dissertation when we post to be "spared" the flaming of any certain "Savageshooters.com Guru" (whether they are, or just think they are a guru).

I first joined in 2009. I can remember when we could post any threads relative to Savage rifles (or shooting, or reloading, etc), WITHOUT receiving a childish rant or lecture in return.

In my book, "tomme" owes him an apology for his childish rant.

[Dave Hoback]

Dave,

Respectfully, you are telling the wrong poster to calm down and take a breath.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way. However tomme is just flat out over the top with his attitude. No way he "doesn't know" how he's coming across.

Not the first time I've encountered this exact same phenomenon since I've been back here. Some kind of cultural change in the forums over the last few years? Honestly, I don't care, it doesn't impress.

Not everyone who posts here is a "noob". Like Hylander, I myself also have tons of real world experience in this area. Been handloading since 1975, worked in the gun retail business for 20-ish years, shot competitively in service rifle, sillywet, and some benchrest, best friend was a gunsmith and master machinist. We shouldn't have to give our entire life's dissertation when we post to be "spared" the flaming of any certain "Savageshooters.com Guru" (whether they are, or just think they are a guru).

I first joined in 2009. I can remember when we could post any threads relative to Savage rifles (or shooting, or reloading, etc), WITHOUT receiving a childish rant or lecture in return.

In my book, "tomme" owes him an apology for his childish rant.

Ok.. haaaave fun with that. http://www.savageshooters.com/blob:https://www.savageshooters.com/73eee795-e4ad-40a8-800b-8de4ef538aab:tea:

[wbm]

Anyway, heading to range now to do some shooting as the weather is great.

Good on ya! Post how it went.

[Hylander]

Hylander, easy man. Take a breath. Tommy wasn’t referring to your intellectual capacity in a diminutive manner. He was simply stating certain truths. It’s not that anyone is discounting you specifically.. it’s like I said previously, we’ve seen posts identical to yours with almost clock-like repetition. And all the stories generally follow the same guidelines. “Person gets new savage.. decides to borescope… sees marks… convinces themselves barrel is trash & commits to sending back.” And then when we here tell them these marks are common, and generally don’t hurt accuracy, their story tends to change. It morphs into it had bad accuracy all the while! (Even though accuracy was never mentioned in their initial post.) Now you did complain of Copper fouling, yet I haven’t met a barrel yet that was “easy” for Copper to clean out 100%. And barrel I have, I can clean until it’s shiny new! Let it sit a night and put a solvent patch down it next day. Some fouling will still come out.

All I can say is good luck, and hope the replacement looks better to you. But regardless, I would actually shoot at least 100yds then test it… BEFORE you condemn the barrel.

Hey Dave,
I'm calm, not upset or anything with anyone.
I was just answering Tommy point by point.
Twice in his post he did sound condescending.
But again, not upset at all.

[Hylander]

Good on ya! Post how it went.

Today's range session was not with the Savage but it was an Awesome range morning.
Looking forward to getting the Savage back to the range but that won't be for about 8 weeks.

[Dave Hoback]

HA! Probably still going to be sooner than receiving my new Criterion barrel! Just hit 4 week mark this past Wednesday. It was 12-20 weeks when I ordered. Patience is a virtue.

[Hylander]

HA! Probably still going to be sooner than receiving my new Criterion barrel! Just hit 4 week mark this past Wednesday. It was 12-20 weeks when I ordered. Patience is a virtue.

Yikes,
I got a Remage Criterion Barrel awhile back.
I was lucky, waited less than a month.
Got it from NSS

[Whynot]

Didn't realize I was lowest IQ calling them.
I am not new to firearms, shooting or working on them, I do it day 5 days a week. I have a friend that is a gun smith, I personally know a master gun smith.

What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?

[Hylander]

What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?

So there are your average gun smith's and there are guys like Tussey, Turnbull, Huntington etc.
No they don't call themselves that, it is just a term.

[Dave Hoback]

Yikes,
I got a Remage Criterion Barrel awhile back.
I was lucky, waited less than a month.
Got it from NSS

Yup.. I got one from James at NSS as well. But I ordered the barrel in the cartridge & extras I wanted. Not what NSS wanted to sell to me & happened to have in stock. So for that, it’s 12-20 weeks.

[tomme boy]

Let me see if I can explain what you are seeing.

Do you know what a nut and bolt is?

You see the threading on and in each one?

Think of what you are seeing as the nut. The rate that the drill and reamer are sent in are the threads. Without lapping before the rifling is done, every defect will be transferred to the bore and grove. It is a cost cutting step to not lap the barrel.

This is the customer service explanation talking to a normal customer.

[charlie b]

No. The defect is not transferred to the grooves unless the defects are deeper than the grooves, which is not the case here. This is chatter from the broach.

[tomme boy]

Talk to anyone that makes barrels that lap them. This is what they are removing. Usually it is done on a Sunnen lapping machine. But some are also hand lapped. It is not the BUTTON that savage uses. They dont broach cut the rifling. They button rifle all of their barrels. The broach would cut away the marks as you say but not in this case as they dont cut the rifling. I have been in the metal forming and machining trade since 98. I know first hand how these processes work and are done. Just because you know someone that calls himself a "master" does not mean you understand how things are done.

[Dave Hoback]

Hey! I knew a Master once! He was 100%, positively a MASTER!!





BATER, that is!:cool:

[Hylander]

Ok,
Can we just let this thread die.
Since this thread was started by me just showing a pic of what I consider an unexceptable bore and unexceptable quality control, which it is.
This thread is becoming an I know more than you thread, so can we agree to disagree and close the thread.

[tomme boy]

OK I contacted frank Green from Bartlein Barrels. Here is what he has to say.

Yes, no and maybe so......

Yes the marks in the original pictures in this thread are bore reamer marks. The deeper the bore reamer marks and when you pull or push a button thru the bore it just presses the marks down into the grooves. The rougher the marks the more the barrel is going to foul. The marks are in the opposite direction of bullet travel. So basically it will act like a file.

Not all barrel makers pre lap after bore reaming. I know of some gun makers/barrel makers that are so cheap they drill and just pull the button thru.

We pre lap before rifling (after reaming) and finish lap after rifling. All we do is cut rifling.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

And a second message asking about why they are on the bore and grove.

That is one of the biggest misconceptions that the button rifling will displace and totally get rid of the tooling marks left over from the reamer.

One phrase that is used is that button rifling "will iron out the marks" It might to some extent but not always.

It goes back to.... Paying attention to the finish your getting out of the bore reamer. It's a big deal. At least to us it is. The nicer the finish the bore reamer leaves the less work you have to do to prelap the bore prior to rifling.

Here are a couple more pic's. The right pic shows the bore finish prior to a button being pulled thru. That finish isn't the greatest if that got bore reamed. Look close at that pic and you can see the bore reamer marks on the top of the lands.

Also you can see how the steel gets displaced and the stress it causes from the button going into the blank on the face of the barrel blank. Now try and imagine the stress induced into the blank. A good button maker will restress relieve the material after button rifling...and yes they are places that don't do it at all. Again residual stress in the blank no barrel maker can measure for.

For a rough number....a 30cal barrel that is suppose to have a .308" groove size...they might have to pull something like a .3115" button thru the blank. They get a different heat lot and that same button might not work and they might have to go to a .3120" diameter button. Also if they grab a different diameter blank that will play hell with the bore sizes. Going lets say from a 1.280" diameter blank to a 1.4" diameter blank the heavier wall thickness will make the bore/grooves tighten up and the opposite will happen if you go to a smaller diameter blank...the bore will get bigger.

http://i.imgur.com/kljnkxY.jpg (https://imgur.com/kljnkxY)

[Robinhood]

I have used a few reamers in my day. Both tapered and straight.. The most impressive thing about Savages reamers are how they make "non chatter" in the grooves and the bore. I like how the barrels are not inspected before they rifle them. Seems like a crazy way to do business. Scrap them, keep machining them, and let the customer find them. Still blows me away how they ream the grooves. Newfangled metal working.

[wbm]

Ok,
Can we just let this thread die.
Since this thread was started by me just showing a pic of what I consider an unexceptable bore and unexceptable quality control, which it is.
This thread is becoming an I know more than you thread, so can we agree to disagree and close the thread.

+1