New barrel recommendations

[charlie b]

Fuj and GrenGuy,

Who would you choose between Douglas and Hart for a finished barrel? I will be looking at a .30BR.

[GrenGuy]

Fuj and GrenGuy,

Who would you choose between Douglas and Hart for a finished barrel? I will be looking at a .30BR.
Between the 2 You mention, I would call it a toss up. Unless one is more available than the other.

Fuj may have a different option.

edit: Some claim the 30BR is the king of Short Range Bench Rest Score Class. Is that what You want it for?

[charlie b]

Actually for cast bullets, but, yes for short range, maybe 300yd. Not competition. I have my 6BR for long range.

[Dave Hoback]

Sorry I haven't responded to anyone, but for some reason the forum isn't sending me notifications of responses.

Thank you all for your input thus far!! There's a lot of good info above.

I spoke to Krieger (no eta on Savage pre-fits being produced, but has been mentioned), All things considered Bartlein is out of my wheel house. I'm sure they're great barrels, but for little ol me that doesn't compete etc it's not for me.
I've spoke to NSS as well and I'm leaning towards going that route. Might have to flip a coin between the Criterion and Shilen.


It really is a coin toss between Shilen & Criterion. Both are exceptional and you will quite happy with either. I’ll say this since you mentioned Krieger. Criterion actually IS a Button Rifled Krieger! The Krieger & Criterion share a space, & workers! Even the steel billets they both use are the same from the same supplier! It’s simply the Rifling process which is different. Now some believe Cut rifling is better… even though there is no evidence for that. (I’ve made this clear.) Also, the more expensive Bartlien, Hart, Kreiger, etc., they don’t last longer. All Premium barrels last roughly the same amount of rounds. Also, it’s about the same regardless of rifling; whether Cut, Button or Cold Hammer Forged (CHF). It’s not the rifling (lands & grooves) that cause accuracy loss from wear. It’s the Chamber Throat that wears first. Bottom line there: If you want any barrel to last longer, have the chamber/bore either Chromed or Nitrided. This will turn a 2500rd barrel into a 25,000rd barrel! I’ll also mention if you’re sold on Cut rifling, McGowan also does it for like $100 more than Button rifling. So it ends up about in between Shilen/Criterion & Bartlien/Krieger price wise.

So why then does a Cut Rifling barrel cost more? Same reason CHF barrels cost more. It costs more to make them. Cut rifling is simply more labor intensive. It takes much, much longer. More labor intensive. And of course, extra labor costs $$. In the case of a CHF barrel, while manufacturing & production speed is greatly enhanced, the machines required to make them are exceedingly expensive. Even an older machine from the 40’s is cost prohibitive. So, higher production costs of course leads to higher commercial cost. Simple as that. So, with that in mind, what is a good way to sell something that simply costs more to make? Why not tell the public it’s better. Tell everyone the process being used makes for a better product. GENIUS! LOL! Same old song & dance that people have been doing since the beginning of production & commerce.

[charlie b]

Dave, just because you can't tell the difference does not mean there is no difference. Cut or button it boils down to how well the maker holds tolerances. It is not just the source steel. As we've gone over this before, if you are in the 1's and 2's you will have a preference for barrels. If you are like me then I want a barrel that does not handicap me. As I get better I notice more things to improve on. Tiny things. But, if your goal is 1/2MOA kind of shooting then the Shilen and Criterion are "good enough for government work". If you talk to Jim at Northland he does not prefer one over the other.

[Dave Hoback]

You just proved my point. You said how well the Maker holds tolerances. I’m speaking of the Rifling processes. To what you said, Shilen does Button Rifling as well as Bartlien does Cut rifling. And either barrel can be easily trashed by whoever does the Chambering. Magical Cut Rifling isn’t going to fix a botched chambering. You can talk all you want. There is NO evidence that one type RIFLIN is better. The best is anecdotal evidence. (What you just provided. So continue arguing the point all you want. That dog won’t hunt.


What do you mean as you get better? What are you… in your 20’s or 30’s? I’m 45 and understand that I lose a little every year. I peeked quite a few years ago. LOL! We certainly aren’t getting better. Unless you somehow found the mythological fountain of youth?:rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

The barrels that high level competitors buy are the ones that are better. If you chamber two barrels a year and wear both of them out, you cant afford to waste time on the manufactures that are not at the top of the game. You or I may never see the difference but there are people that do. You can stand on a soap box all day long and proclaim your opinion, the one I listen too will be the one who has the been there and done that. If I wanted to shoot world record groups, I think I would pay attention to what the guys trying to do the same thing say. Yes lapping/gauging, straightness, chambering etc... matter but in the end group size matters. When you have the ability to shoot small groups at any distance, your equipment will reflect the same. No one brings a Shaw barrel to the top competition regardless of quality of the chambering. But you will see Bartlein, Krieger, Rock, and Hawk Hill maybe Brux near the top every time. I am currious as to why that is..........


There is NO evidence that one type RIFLIN is better. The best is anecdotal evidence.

Button rifling induces considerably more stress than cut rifling. Stress is not good for strings of fire more than a few rounds. This is not anecdotal. I question where your data comes from.

While most aftermarket barrels are adequate for the majority of us, there is a difference in price if you want to go all out.

A prefit Bartlein from Bugholes in 6.5 creedmoor will cost you about $675 shipped plus or minus
And a Criterion or Shilen from NSS may net you <$400 shipped.

Not everyone needs the top of the line barrel. Personally I want a quality barrel that is straight, with a best reamer specs for my application and with very little runout throughout the machined areas. Whether a Shilen, Bartlien or a Krieger I know I will get the bang for my buck with those considerations. Expectations are critical. I would like a rifle to shoot 3-4 inch 20 shot groups or better at 600 yards. But that is me and what I think I can do with my shooting and reloading abilities.

What do you need or expect?

[Whynot]

Often times some of the things that we call "shooters lore" is based on fact even though it may not be completely correct.... Once again- not a barrel maker so take it for what its worth:

Cut barrels often last longer than button barrels because they are harder steel on the scale. A former employee of a barrel maker that offered both cut and button options told me that they would test their blanks and use the softer steel for button because it was easier on the machines and less likely to break a button off in a barrel (which I assume ruins the barrel and the expensive button as well). That doesn't mean the process is inferior- and if they used the same steel then that would be a moot point.

Also- the process of button rifling does produce stress on a barrel. I've been told that through a process called "normalizing" (which I think is different than cryo but not sure) that you can relieve the stress. Cut barrels are also hand lapped -- so if you are going to go through all the processes on a button barrel that is needed to make it "equal" to a cut barrel- then you have just added a bunch of expense that makes them about the same cost. The thing is- most companies don't do all those things.... so most button barrels are inferior to cut.

And I don't think that you can gain twist a button barrel? (maybe?) but I know that's becoming popular..... and I've also been told that Bartlein has a new super hard barrel steel that has double the barrel life- but it can't be buttoned..... but no first hand knowledge on that.

[Dave Hoback]

I don’t know who told you this, but it’s 100% false. Doesn’t matter what rifling process is used, it’s the same steel. Barrel companies don’t make steel. They by 416 SS (mostly), and/or 4140 Alloy steel. The steel is shipped to the barrel maker as Round Billets. Typically, the longer the Billets, the cheaper the cost. The steel doesn’t come harder or softer. It’s all supplied as annealed, which is steel in its softest form. The billets get cut & are heat treated to the makers specifications. When talking about “hardness” understand that rifle parts are all pretty soft as steel parts go. As a custom Knifemaker, I heat treat & temper my steel blades in the high 50’s to low 60’s HRC. In the world of firearms, the steel is heat treated & tempered in the 30’s… maybe 40 on the HRC scale. This is butter soft to a knife maker! But is necessary as 60hrc, even 50’s, would be far to brittle against the shock of firearm fire. (By the way… steel being hard or soft has no bearing on it’s strength or toughness.) After machining and rifling, the barrels are once again stress relieved (tempered), because no matter how the rifling is done; Cut, Button, CHF… stress is induced into the steel. A tempering relieves this stress. Of course each company has their own specs, places of doing what steps(besides final stress relieving at the end), and I don’t know them.. but I know they MUST follow the same guidelines as everyone else for using steel to make parts. It must be heat treated & tempered after annealing. And as far as buying the steel, they buy from the same places. I can tell you every major US steel supplier (maker) in the country if you like. And I can tell you which ones the top barrel makers likely use because I know which are best. That is, most consistent.

[Whynot]

I don’t know who told you this, but it’s 100% false. Doesn’t matter what rifling process is used, it’s the same steel. Barrel companies don’t make steel. They by 416 SS (mostly), and/or 4140 Alloy steel. The steel is shipped to the barrel maker as Round Billets. Typically, the longer the Billets, the cheaper the cost. The steel doesn’t come harder or softer. It’s all supplied as annealed, which is steel in its softest form. The billets get cut & are heat treated to the makers specifications. When talking about “hardness” understand that rifle parts are all pretty soft as steel parts go. As a custom Knifemaker, I heat treat & temper my steel blades in the high 50’s to low 60’s HRC. In the world of firearms, the steel is heat treated & tempered in the 30’s… maybe 40 on the HRC scale. This is butter soft to a knife maker! But is necessary as 60hrc, even 50’s, would be far to brittle against the shock of firearm fire. (By the way… steel being hard or soft has no bearing on it’s strength or toughness.) After machining and rifling, the barrels are once again stress relieved (tempered), because no matter how the rifling is done; Cut, Button, CHF… stress is induced into the steel. A tempering relieves this stress. Of course each company has their own specs, places of doing what steps(besides final stress relieving at the end), and I don’t know them.. but I know they MUST follow the same guidelines as everyone else for using steel to make parts. It must be heat treated & tempered after annealing. And as far as buying the steel, they buy from the same places. I can tell you every major US steel supplier (maker) in the country if you like. And I can tell you which ones the top barrel makers likely use because I know which are best. That is, most consistent.

You state a lot of opinions as facts.... and that is 100% a fact. The idea that all of the steel is the same is incorrect- you as much as say that in your reply because you say that you know which suppliers are the best? If someone is the best then that means others are inferior or at least different?? Having machined enough metal it is not uncommon for the exact same rated steel to have very different characteristics when machining.

Out of curiosity I did a little research and one of the first pages that came up when searching "cut vs button rifling" is an article by Patriot Valley Arms that very closely mimics what I was told by the person that had actually made barrels- even down to the part about different hardness of steels being used. The person I talked to was not affiliated with this company or the barrels that they use.... so at least 2 barrel makers feel this way- so once again hard to say it's 100% false!

On a side note- you would probably like the article because they believe that button (when done correctly) is every bit as good as cut.... the only issue being that most companies do not do it correctly.

[charlie b]

Dave,

Just so you know, I'm 70 and I shoot bench and supported prone (ie bipod) better now than I did in my 20's. I can't do position anymore due to tremors, but, I did keep getting better until I hit my 60's. Mainly because I could practice more since I had more funds available.

If you just go look at their web sites many of the barrel makers describe their processes. Krieger for example specifies that the do NOT heat treat a barrel, before or after rifling. Their claim is that their rifling process induces no stresses that need to be relieved. The vendor they receive the barrel steel from makes it to spec with any necessary heat treating. Krieger does a thorough QC on them to make sure it meets their spec.

Sorry it is not anecdotal but you can read it yourself on their site.

[Dave Hoback]

Edit: Decided it’s not worth it.

[Dave Hoback]

Ditto

[charlie b]

I am glad you agree with yourself. What I pointed out that they did NOT heat treat AFTER machining as you claimed. You can not believe that if you want. Since you haven't made a barrel I don't know if that means anything. And no, not all specific steels are the same. The mfg process is not perfect and one batch may be a bit off from the next. That's why a mfg has to test each batch they receive to make sure it is meeting their specific requirements. You might be surprised at how often that happens. Doesn't even count if the barrel maker decides to order something slightly different that the 'standard' steels or a different heat treat. At one time some of the barrel makers were ordering steel that had been through a cryogenic treatment.

Just for grins I did some work for you. Checked the IBS match results for this year and equipment used. These numbers are not exact since it depends on which match but across several the balance was about the same. I did not sort by how each placed in the respective matches.

100/200yd Kreiger was favored the most, about 30%, Hart was next 20%, Bartlein 10%, others (Lederer, Brux, etc)

600yd Kreiger 40%, Bartlein and HH were both 20%, then Brux, Broughton, Lederer, and, yes, a Shilen (that shooter placed in the 5th and 6th place a few times).

1000yd Kreiger and Bartlein basically split with a few Brux and some others sprinkled in there, including at least one made by the shooter. The data on 1000yd was not conclusive since only a couple matches listed equipment.

But, when I looked at the cast bullet assn match results it was a bit different (CBA matches are 100 and 200yd). I was specifically looking at 30BR equipment (it is very popular, about 90% of the shooters use it). Lilja was 13, Krieger 2, Hart 4, McGowan 2, Lederer 1, Shilen 3, McMillan 1, Borden 1, Broughton 1

This is just an idea about how the distribution of barrel mfgs is across only these disciplines. I did not look at PRS or other long range events. And, this is not exact. I did not try to sort out people who shot at more than one range. Just a WAG kinda thing.

PS just go to the barrel mfg web sites and read how they make barrels. Don't take my word for it. Do some research on it.

From Bartlein:
Each type of steel has strengths and weaknesses.
-C.M. must be used for some of the lighter contours of barrels. C.M is also needed for customers wanting to "blue" the steel. C.M. is more likely to rust if not properly cleaned and stored.
-Our standard stainless steel covers 95% of the barrels that we run. It is the most widely used material for target and hunting purposes. It is possible to rust if not properly cleaned and stored but far less likely than C.M.
-Mod400 is a Bartlein Barrel exclusive and was designed to achieve longer barrel life. Mod400 is still a 400 series stainless so no new tooling or machine speeds are needed.

Note that their CM steel is 4140 and stainless is 416R along with their Mod400.

[Dave Hoback]

:blah: Too funny.


Bottom line for anyone… if you want to pay $200-$300 more for an aftermarket Savage Barrel & believe it makes you more accurate, go for it! Hey, I’ve often spoken of the power of mind. Just in how there is power in the placebo effect. I simply know different, that no barrel beyond a standard premium line, is going to make me any more accurate. (Especially as I get older. LOL!)


Oh yeah, we’ve done this dance before. Look at my answer here & how it hasn’t changed.
https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?67487-Highest-quality-aftermarket-Savage-replacement-barrels

[charlie b]

....I simply know different, that no barrel beyond a standard premium line, is going to make me any more accurate. (Especially as I get older. LOL!)....


YES!!!!!

[Fuj']

One thing about barrels is "Follow the leader". Shillen got a big boost in reputation from Tony Boyer
winning everything with it. Well ol' Tony switched to Bartlein when they came on line, and more magic
started happening. All of a sudden, Bartlien was top dog. Well hell, If everyone races a Ford, I'm sure
a Ford is going to win. So, What I'm getting at is, percentages really mean nothing since it's mainly
follow the leader. Each barrel has it's own quirks, and you still have to feed it what it likes. The magic
happens at the loading bench and reading the wind.

[charlie b]

Tis true. The percentages do show that button rifling is still a force in the short range game.

I'd wonder why Boyer switched? Did he do better after? Was it just in his head? Or did Barlein make him a deal?

With so few statistics it is hard to tell.

[GrenGuy]

Tis true. The percentages do show that button rifling is still a force in the short range game.

I'd wonder why Boyer switched? Did he do better after? Was it just in his head? Or did Barlein make him a deal?

With so few statistics it is hard to tell.

The top “COMPETITIVE” shooters never stop experimenting.

[South Prairie jim]

Criterion makes a good barrel, pre fits in my opinion are more about the consistency of the reamer being used and the guy operating the lathe. Button rifle barrels can be just as good as cut rifle barrels. I choose Krieger for long range competition use because they are incredibly consistent from blank to blank, waiting 14 months for your Krieger order to be filled is just part of the game so plan ahead.