Firing pin, springs, FTF.

[shoots100]

That has already proven unsuccessful. Tired of wasting costly primers.
If your cases are the issue, it's your reloading practices that are the cause of the FTF, not the rifle.
As others have stated, brass doesn't just magically get shorter without the user doing the shortening.
Clean your die set, Start with fresh brass, make sure you size all of your brass at one time and see what happens ?
Take all of the measured shorter brass and toss them.

SJC

[KMW1954]

If your cases are the issue, it's your reloading practices that are the cause of the FTF, not the rifle.
As others have stated, brass doesn't just magically get shorter without the user doing the shortening.
Clean your die set, Start with fresh brass, make sure you size all of your brass at one time and see what happens ?
Take all of the measured shorter brass and toss them.

SJC

Brilliant suggestion, only this has already been done two week ago, Also standard practice is that all brass is sized as a complete lot at the same time. Have already been through all this with a friend and fellow Bench Rest shooter from start to finish twice. Reason I came here and presented this is because he is unfamiliar with Savage rifle and their Firing pin system.

[Rocketvapor]

There must be something missing in this online discussion.
Being there seems to be the real solution and I'm sure you will post back what you and your friend find.
Best of luck and be safe.
RV

[shoots100]

There must be something missing in this online discussion.

There is something missing, the understanding that magically shrinking cases are being loaded into a rifle and the rifle is being blamed for the FTF.
Rifle brass doesn't shrink on it's own.
I wish you luck on your quest to find the answer to the mystical brass shrinking issue and hope you post the spell it took to remove the hex on your brass.

SJC

[Dave Hoback]

Now, now shoots:apathy: While I think perhaps something is being overlooked(we all do it from time to time), KMW has been loading 223 in his Savages for several years. I certainly do not doubt his understanding & ability in measuring. I know it’s meant to be funny…but, maybe simmer down on the condescending remarks? I mean… it is Christmas:(:tea:

[shoots100]

Now, now shoots:apathy: While I think perhaps something is being overlooked(we all do it from time to time), KMW has been loading 223 in his Savages for several years. I certainly do not doubt his understanding & ability in measuring. I know it’s meant to be funny…but, maybe simmer down on the condescending remarks? I mean… it is Christmas:(:tea:
Sometimes you need to wake people up with constructive criticism.
Your going to get that criticism when you come on a forum asking for help, sparingly give out info and get snarky with the advice given to help remedy the issue.
When your car has a flat tire, you don't change the oil to fix it.
Clearly there's an issue in the reloading process, yet the OP thinks the firing pin is the issue, even after chasing that "non issue" down the rabbit hole.
I hope he finds the cause of the issue and is truthful in letting us know how he/they remedied the issue.
Merry Christmas,

SJC

[KMW1954]

Sometimes you need to wake people up with constructive criticism.
Merry Christmas,

SJC

You call this constructive criticism. I call it something I cannot print here. Everything you have suggested has already been tried previous to me posting here. So take your over rated opinion and keep it. I certainly do NOT NEED, Want or Deserve the Attitude for some WWW Warrior. I am just posting the results of what I find you don't like it or believe to well too bad for you!

[KMW1954]

There certainly is no answer to be gotten here from this group only ridicule so I an done with this topic.

[Rocketvapor]

Most everyone was trying to be helpful.
Nine different ways to Sunday to fix a firing pin issue, when it may not be a pin problem.
What ever you do to find the issue stay safe and I for one would like to hear the final outcome.

[Dave Hoback]

There certainly is no answer to be gotten here from this group only ridicule so I an done with this topic.

Well, that’s certainly an undeserved blanket statement, with a side of ungratefulness towards another member who stuck up for you. :(

And after I JUST went to bat for you! Was in your corner. And as Rocket pointed out, pretty much everyone was taking it serious & trying to help.. Only one comment was out of line. Again, being in your corner, I immediately called out as distasteful. But I was pleasant in rebuke as I am fond of both you & he.

[KMW1954]

Well, that’s certainly an undeserved blanket statement, with a side of ungratefulness towards another member who stuck up for you. :(

And after I JUST went to bat for you! Was in your corner. And as Rocket pointed out, pretty much everyone was taking it serious & trying to help.. Only one comment was out of line. Again, being in your corner, I immediately called out as distasteful. But I was pleasant in rebuke as I am fond of both you & he.

Dave I fully understand and I do appreciate the help and suggestions. Everything I have posted in this thread is factual and I have notes, pictures and actual items pertaining to this sitting right in front of me. Yet I have pretty much been called an idiot and a liar. Again just aggravated with this issue and not being able to isolate it. We are supposed to start are winter league in two weeks and as of not I do not have a rifle to shoot.

I have been fighting this issue for 3 weeks with direct help form a friend and fellow Bench rest shooter that I trust and we together have been through this front and back more than just once. This whole question was poised to ask about the FPA and springs as I have never had to change any yet it drifted to this other issue which I had no intention of bringing up as I knew or suspected where it would lead and it had devolved to exactly that. SO now you all can ponder these.

1022210223

The first picture is a loaded and unfired round. The second picture is a loaded FTF round.

[charlie b]

My Axis 'suddenly' began to show light primer strikes as well, but, only with small rifle primers. A bit of time polishing, new springs, and a preload washer fixed it.

FWIW, shoulder set back is common in the cast bullet world. A variety of reasons for it, but, all involve either a very light load or a failure to ignite the primer or main charge.

Make sure to check the FTF rounds to see if the primer went off or not. There have been quite a few times where I have seen the primer ignite and not set off the main charge properly. When I fired them I could not tell if the primer went off or not (good earplugs I guess).

[Dave Hoback]

KMW, I never called nor even so much as insinuated you anything of the sort! And you still have me grouped & others all grouped together as making these comments. I’ve only ever tried my best to answer any question I could. Remember this? https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?70961-223-cratering-primers Who was there from start to finish with you? And even on another Forum altogether, I was patient in trying to help you in a thread you made where so many other members there were attacking you. But did I, even once?

You really need to take note of who’s saying what from post to post my friend.

[KMW1954]

You really need to take note of who’s saying what from post to post my friend.

Dave you are completely correct. My aggravation and frustration at this situation is at ends. No, a few comments did not sit well. I have not and do not makes comments to that degree to anyone on any forum. I do not participate in these forum to be degraded or belittled. Those that do it have an ego problem.

You and I have had instances in the past that we have not agreed upon but we have still respected each other. I still respect and value your opinion. Others not so much.

Now I have also posted actual pictures to illustrate this issue yet no one has a comment or do the pictures lie?

Anyway Have a Merry Christmas. I am going to try and get to the range tomorrow and have to work Fri/Sat.

[shoots100]

You call this constructive criticism. I call it something I cannot print here. Everything you have suggested has already been tried previous to me posting here. So take your over rated opinion and keep it. I certainly do NOT NEED, Want or Deserve the Attitude for some WWW Warrior. I am just posting the results of what I find you don't like it or believe to well too bad for you!
Man, you sound like a guy that has an issue with shrinking brass.
When you find the remedy, please update.
Merry Christmas.

SJC
.

[KMW1954]

updated results;

Shot yesterday and finished that problematic box, of which I have not inspected yet but there was a 50+% failure rate. Of the rounds that failed last week they were fired in my model 10 and 50% of those did fire in the Model 10. I also shot 2 other boxes, both with different brass and one of those was loaded with Remington 7 1/2 primers. The other was loaded with PMC brass and the same batch of CCI450 primers as those that did not fire. Of these 50 rounds every one fired.

Merry Christmas All.

[pdog06]

So some of them failed in a different rifle as well? That seems to eliminate a rifle issue in my book.
Seeing the pictures, that brass doesnt get shorter by not even being fired. It had to be shorter before you chambered it. But based on those measurements, are ALL of the FTF cases close to the shorter distance? Or are some of them the length of the one that fired? Did you measure the loaded rounds after sizing or before they were chambered? Were they all the same or some king and some short?
I feel until you figure it out, you need to measure before sizing, after sizing, after loading, and after chambering/firing to give you more of a basis to go off of.

Also, I’ve read on other forums of a guy having an issue with FTF with cci450’s in cold weather(20-30’s). Not sure what conditions you were shooting in? Their rifles were not Savages. Atleast 1 was a Tikka. Did it in both rifles. They switched back to cci400 and the issue went away.

I too would like to see what it ends up being. We may all run into this issue one day. It is how we all learn.

[sharpshooter]

I'll say it again.....insufficient impact energy. Those cases could be .015" short and still go off with the correct impact energy.

[Robert8904]

The firing pin falling on a dud primer will easily shorten a shoulder datum measurement by .002-.005", or more. I like to shoot reduced loads in several bolt guns, and in several calibers. Nearly all of these loads (.223 to .338 Win Mag at 1600-1800 fps) will shorten the datums by .003" or sometimes more. There is simply not enough pressure to stretch the brass back to chamber length after the firing pin smacks the case shoulder into the chamber.

So yes, the OP losing datum from a firing pin strike is a real thing.

[Rocketvapor]

Even when the pin doesn't dent the primer?
Or a light strike?