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Re: Lee Collet Die
Getting back to the original question, possum, do you neck turn before sizing with the collett die?
The collett die works best with unturned brass (.012-.013 wall). If the wall is turned down to say .008'' then the collett has to close tighter than it is designed to and the collett will tend to dig into the neck.
If you get curious about this, remove the collett from the die and slip it over a case neck so you can see how closely the collett fits the neck. If there is too much clearance or is too tight then it might be the cause of the marks showing up as you mentionned.
My 223 necks are .255 fired and the collett openning at rest is .262''. I only use just enough pressure to size the neck back to .249''. There are no unusual marks left on the necks.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
H*ll I had to go back and read the original question, funny how threads get off subject ::) No I do not neck turn. I found what was causing the indention, somewhere along the way I had damaged the collets, or one of my boy's had messed with my press " very doubtful as I whoop @ss occasionally " and damaged the die collets. I removed the burrs that were causing the damage to the cases. All is well now in the Johnson's house ;D edit Sometime in the future I will purchase one of those high dollar neck dies and do the comparison for myself, as for now I do not have an opinion on which is better. The one thing I am sure of, where I point the muzzle or cross-hairs, that's where the bullet ends up ;)
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Re: Lee Collet Die
After hearing so many positive comments I decided to give my problematic Lee Collet a "close up" look, I have chronological gifted eyesight so I enlisted the help of a set of visor magnifiers.
The problem was a bad collet that looked to be only partially finished and the inside of the collet was not smooth around the slots. The inside of the collet was not as bad as the outside "BUT" it appeared to have missed the final finish smoothing and still had burs at the edge of the slots.
I was unable to get an internal shot of the crimping area so I will just be able to show you the outside of the collet.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7132.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7137.jpg[/img]
I had ordered a smaller mandrel and a new collet to go with the mandrel and unfortunately my chronological gifted eyesight and bifocals missed the new collet defects. I removed the defective collet and replace it with the original collet and after cleaning and inspecting I found no internal burs. After a light polishing and lubing the Lee Collet die no longer eats and mangles my case necks. It does not leave the necks as smooth as a standard die but the marks are just barely visible to the naked eye. (or bifocals)
In my next loading session I will give them a full workout and tests at the range. (Bifocals permitting) ::)
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Re: Lee Collet Die
If my Lee dies had looked like that I too would be giving them the bad-mouth. There is no excuse for a product to get out the door looking like that.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
The collet pictured did NOT come with the original Lee collet die, it was a replacement item I ordered that I failed to check properly and installed. The original collet was smooth and finished so I will take half the blame.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
bigedp51, Now I understand where the bad taste in your mouth came from. :D Looks like the QC guy @ Lee is in dire need of a visit to his Optometrist coupled with a drug test. Cause he's either blind or stoned. Later, Dale
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Re: Lee Collet Die
WHOOOOOA !!!!!!!! Now I agree with the eye doctor, but I definately FROWN on the drug testing. Has something to do with the privacy act, in my opinion. Or maybe because it cost me too many job's back in the day when I could work. I alway's hit the target better when I'm stoned ::)
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Biged, looking forward to hearing more about the outcome. Its a shame that you got a bad piece and I know how it can sour you about a manufacturer. Its happening to me with Sinclair but it sounds like you are getting much better service from Lee than I am from S.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
[i][/iservice from Lee ] Not saying this because I've had problem's with the Lee product's but you can't beat thier CS.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Biged, I see where the bad taste comes from. When I viewed the pictures yesterday I thought that sure is ugly. Your post are very informative, and so are the others. Thanks.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Just to the doubters, I know there are good neck sizers other than the collet die. But the collet die is a very good die. I remember Jim Calhoun doing a test on neck dies and the collet die was producing ammo with the least amount of runout. All testing was done using bench rest style seaters like the Forrester and Redding. You know, sometimes a company comes up with an idea that maybe some of other companys should have cuz for the price this is a steal.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
I use them all the time. I've shot tight groups at 600-1000 yards with them. 1/4 - 1/2 moa.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
I want to thank gotcha for hammering on me and re-sparking my interest in the Lee Collet die, I kept going back and reading his post about die setup and said to myself I have to inspect this collet die over again and see what is really wrong with it.
I worked over 25 years in Quality Control as an Inspector and I remembered one of the first things we were taught.
"97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actually mechanical failures"
The problem with my Lee Collet Die was human error times two, the collet's defects were missed at the factory and then missed by me after it was shipped to me.
Actually it is human error times three, I also did a search at http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html and found many pages of reloading information on the Lee Collet Die at a bench rest shooting website.
So problem solved, and you can teach an old dog new tricks. ;D
(if he listens to other people and uses a magnifying glass to see with)
Below, after cleaning, inspecting, replacing the "new" defective collet, and polishing the crimping area , a .303 British case with only the faintest of marks on the neck.
[img width=600 height=427]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7151.jpg[/img]
Click on the links below for collet die setup, lubrication and one hole groups. ;)
http://www.6mmbr.com/BlogJan2007.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek075.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek075.html
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Glad you decided to give it another chance. Even if you do go back to your previous setup at least you gave the Lee stuff a chance. All I use any more is a Lee collet die and a Redding body die. I am very pleased with my results. My reloads are very consistent.
Dolomite
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Re: Lee Collet Die
::) :o ::) :o ::) ::) :o ;D
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Re: Lee Collet Die
After even more reading about the Lee Collet die online to "re-educate" myself on how to adjust and "fine tune" a Lee collet die, here are the results.
Well under .001 case neck runout.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7152.jpg[/img]
Less than .001 bullet runout on my case forming loads using the Lee Collet die.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7155.jpg[/img]
This is fantastic considering the long fat chamber on the military .303 Enfield rifle and the fact that commercial American SAAMI cases have smallish base diameters and thin rims that greatly effect headspace. If you are not careful with our American .303 cases it is very easy to end up with a banana shaped warped case in the Enfield chamber.
One of my online reading finds last night was to "NOT" tighten the die lock ring down until it bottoms out, only use finger tight pressure on the lock ring nut to tighten it so the die can "float" and self center itself on the rubber o-ring and thus add to more accurate reloads.
My first postings in this thread were "bad calls" due to vision problems. ::)
[img width=450 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/blind.jpg[/img]
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Re: Lee Collet Die
bigedp51, Thanks for making my $12 fee soooo worth while. I continue to be amazed by the quality of your input. And, like the other posters, sincerely enjoy your feed-back. It ain't easy to say "I was wrong" and then have the integrity to turn around and prove it!! I'm not sure I'd have had the fortitude (much less the skills) to do that. :-\ It's been a pleasure butting heads with you. ;D Itty bitty groups to ya' Dale
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Below is a very good article from Benchrest Central on how to adjust your Lee collet die on a RCBS RockChucker type press that goes over center at the end of the ram stroke. The basic problem is "some" of us apply "too" much pressure on the collet die and run into problems. What is important here is uniformity and adjusting the collet die as per below you are using the "mechanical stop" of the press to achieve crimping uniformity on each neck sized case in your Lee Collet Die.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
By John Valentine.
Benchrest Central
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed. I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies. This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck. The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base. One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass. The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press.
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases.Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb. Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet. Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now. The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre.
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop. eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker. This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation. Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder, then lower the ram. Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder. Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none, lower the ram. Screw the die down a bit at a time. If you get lock up (ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance, keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place.
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place. Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension. This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all.
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker, that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply.
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing.
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel. Be careful polishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests. For example, to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them. One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished. If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that. It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base. This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them.
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks. Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter. I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any dragging effect. Normally you don't need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck. After a few cases it coats up the mandrel. Other dry lubricants would work also. Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
*****
Last edited by J. Valentine; 03-14-2008 at 01:10 AM.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...Die-Adjustment
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Possum Dude, I'm always looking for ways to tighten groups 8). So I tried the method you described above :-[ The BAD NEWS: I couldn't improve my groups >:( The GOOD NEWS: I really didn't give a s--t 8) ---------- Do ya' reckon a quarter pounder of "group tightener" might be too heavy a charge?
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Unfortunately the die setting instructions given above are misleading for the reasons given earlier in this thread. With a collett die the sizing 'stop' is built in, meaning that when the neck brass reaches the stem it stops closing automatically. To continue adding an unknown amount of pressure by toggleing the press over will only stress the die unnecessarily. There is no need to find a delicate ram/die position to get correct sizing with a collett die. I invite any of you to see for yourselves. Screw your collett down as far as it will go in the press and size a case. Chances are the ram will be no where near the toggle over point and you feel the case will get sized.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Tozguy
I set my Lee Collet Die up as described above and got better and more uniform results, you are setting the closing force to minimum and are also coming to a mechanical stop that requires no guess work as to the amount force applied to the press handle.
A standard joke when I was an Inspector was if an Inspector asked the mechanic what was the torque value setting on that bolt the follow was given as an answer.
"I tightened the nut until the threads started to smoke and then gave the nut two more full turns"
The purpose of the above setup is to make all the neck sizing uniform with equal force applied to each case neck. This eliminates the differences between a 90 pound weakling and a Gorilla pulling on the reloading press arm.
The setup above removes any muscle memory errors and the grinding of gears speed shifting the press arm. This type setup removes any "human" errors connected with pulling the handle, eating your Wheaties, possible anabolic steroid abuse or the possibility of you arm falling asleep and loosing all the feeling in your arm.
The problem is always connected to the nut pulling the handle and the force applied.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/capscrew.gif
NOTE: The same type arguments are started when discussing what is the proper amount of "headspace".......
Below, "excess" headspace. ::)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ambeer_lgl.jpg
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Watch this YouTube video and the Forster Co-Ax Single Stage Press with the Lee Collet die, I would say this press is going "over center". ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Screw your collett down as far as it will go in the press and size a case. When I do this procedure in my Lee press it buckles the shoulder. ::) Do ya' reckon a quarter pounder of "group tightener" might be too heavy a charge? Alway's help's mine. ;D
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Biged, I love your graphics! I understand the principle of reducing human error although it is an assumption that the maximum pressure (blue) method is more uniform than using less but enough tension. My point is to have us realize how little pressure it takes to size a neck with a collett die and that once once the neck is tight to the mandrel, no amount of extra pressure can make the neck smaller than the mandrel. As possum showed, it will give some elsewhere (example buckled case). I don't get buckled cases but I can see now how someone with a heavier press could miss the stopping point.
Possum, just curious did you feel a transition between when the collett bottomed and when the case started to buckle?
Many of us reject a powder charge from a measure if it doesn't feel normal. Like wise some of us punch out primers by hand and insert new ones by hand to feel how tight the pocket is. I like to feel the neck being sized and find it easy to tell when to stop. But I am starting to realize that it won't work for everybody.
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Re: Lee Collet Die
Possum, just curious did you feel a transition between when the collett bottomed and when the case started to buckle? To be honest that was almost 2 years ago when I first started hand loading, My memory is about as long as my pecker, if you know what I mean.