Well I'm going to the range today anyway! I'll see what I can do.
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It sounds as though your brass needs re-annealed, its work hardened from loading-firing cycles. Brass can be miserable stuff, the harder it gets the more it resists changing shape. Its the main reason for split necks, they generally take the most beating firing and resizing.
When or how often to anneal? It depends on the brass and how much its worked. I have a batch of R-P 280 brass that needs annealed after two cycles otherwise I run the risk ripping the press off the bench pulling the expander back through the neck. After annealing the expander pulls through and bullets seat smoothly with only moderate resistance.
A bushing or a Lee collet die can reduce the amount a neck is worked, but it depends how much they reduce the neck OD after being expanded to the chamber after firing.
Lubing the inside of the necks isn't the answer, it doesn't fix the problem, it masks it kind of like the old '50s- '60s trick putting sawdust in a manual transmission with bad bearings to quiet it down!:p
Bill
Lone Wolf:
Be sure to report back with your range results, no matter how good or bad. I won't question your results and I'll believe whatever you say!!
Some folks have been known to "put a little hair" of target results but in the long run, you're only fooling yourself!
Be REAL interesting to see what we can actually do.
I'm using the free targets from the midway USA site. They have a pdf at the bottom of the page. With 4 targets per page.
Shooting position will be the prone with bipod and rear rest. Also built a platform to make front loading the pod easier at the range I go to. There is an unlevel gap between the end of the concrete and the firing line. So I built this box as a shooting platform:
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8e984491.jpg
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9 times out of 10 it will be the shooter and the ammo making the difference. There are plenty of accurate rifles out there and also plenty of crap factory ammo and bad shooters. I love seeing all these 3 shot groups posted on the net. A 3 shot group is not an indicator of anything as they are still pretty much cold bore shots. Pump 20 through your rifle then shoot a 5 shot group. I like 10 shot strings with cooling between strings. This is a good indicator of how accurate the rifle, ammo and shooter. Also 100 yards is a paltry distance for these rifles. 100 yards is 22LR distance for a challenge. Frankly it's boring for any precision rifle and only good for load development. 300 yards is a bare minimum for accuracy and 500-1000 is where the rubber meets the road.
I spent hours and lots of $$$ putting together my Model 12 22-250 for distance. XLR chasis, McGowen barrel, NSS lug/nut, trigger work, nice optic, etc. I spent more time on load development than any other caliber working up the 80g A-max. The rifle made little clover leafs at 100 yards with my 15 year old son shooting it. The test came at the long range. First shot at 600 yards was center of mass on an ISPC steel target. Next five were within inches of the first. At 1000 had 5 within 5" with a variable wind of 5-10mph. It took 3 shots for me to hit the 3" gopher target at 1030 but I hit it. Am I a world class shooter....hell no! Is the rifle accurate...hell yes! But in reality it is the ammunition that makes the rifle.
That's true. It usually comes down to the nut behind the trigger!!! However, I am willing to post a 5 shot 5 round group. But that simply cannot be done on my part until the spring. Right now it's hunting season, and believe me, I just have too many "plates spinning" to attempt to get to the range with 25 rounds of ammo and shoot 'em at an orang dot.
Dave
I have a 110e action I just put a shilen select match 25-06AI barrel on dropped it in a houge full bed stock and started fire forming brass and I'm getting under 1/4 Moa every range trip. My best has been .098 it averaged .210 for 5 5 shot groups. I think it is as much the shooter,ammo quality,and just getting a really good barrel. I have a $3000 rifle that can't shoot with my savage. Guess which one I'm going to sell.
Please post your targets.
Well, with my current setup I am not quite capable. I am sure the rifle is, but I am not that capable.
.77 group forgot to charge the real camera and my phone couldn't focus on the micrometer, but it stated .77.
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1383948216
All Groups today at 100.
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1383948438
got a few things to work on though. I learned more about my rig for sure.
Mine shoots as good as I can shoot it which is a lot better sometimes than others. I have shot many tiny groups with reloads and ,an always ,ount on sub moa even with factory ammo. It's a bone stock lrh in 6.5 creedmoor with a $300. Nikon scope and my smallest 3shot group was .087 at 100 yds and it commonly shoots 1 hole 5 sbot grpz at 200 (5/8" and less" my thought is a custom made sav. Done right will have no problem at all shooting as good as the nut behind the bolt can drive it. (by the way I consider myself a beginner as far as long range target goes.) Have shot and hunted all my life, but just started learning to shoot good a few years back. It sure is fun to shoot next to folks with $5000 or more rifles with a stock savage.
Build with confidence and good luck,
Lessdrop
I know these are all 3 shot and one 4 shot but I'm not using Berger bullets or any special reloading technique's, the only special thing I do is weigh cases and bullets.
Note that this target was shot 5 different days over a month's time and the scope was adjusted for 2 different local match's that I shoot in. This test is mainly used to test the scope zero and cold bore shot.
Also days 1-3 were using a 70$ Centerpoint scope days 4 and 5 with new Nightforce. cheap ER Shaw barrel.
I will attempt this challenge with my new Shilen Select Match .308 barrel that will be here next week. I will also have to move to Berger bullets and get a more precise scale.
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/...psd5004329.jpg
It's de ja vu. We went through this last year. One hole rifles that have had nothing done to them,IMHO, are a figment of someones imagination. We have a competition every year, it's tomorrow, Sunday Nov. 10. Three shots, in succession, off the bench at 200 yards, 10 ring is one inch. There may be one group under an inch. Most will be 4-5 inches. Rifles have to under 12 lbs and under 24x scopes. A couple of the guys shoot regularly at Ridgeway, PA. They are good shooters with good equipment. I have been lucky enough to win the last 2 years with a stubbed Hart barrel on a tuned Encore action in 7-08 AI rimmed. This year I will be shooting a tuned Savage (thanks Fred), custom barreled 6.5x47. Guys that have been running their mouths usually just go to the car and go home.....and we never see them again. We shoot across a pond...so no wind flags. My Encore rig will shoot 2's and 3's, once in a while. I am thrilled to death when I can put 10 shots in 1.5 inches at 200 yds. That's a 7.5. The Savage does about as well.
Jeez, i was just trying to encourage someone t˙o build and wanted t o share some of my experiences with my new svage. Been tryi
trying to post a pic of target to show its not my imagination. No luck as all i have is a phone to connect here. Since my erlier trips i have found the sweet spot for berger 130 vlds to be 2.835- about .025 to. 030 off lands. Have tried varget, r15, r17, r19, h4350, imr4350 and can't get a bad group from any. Used berger 130, 140 vld, berger 120, hornady 95 and 120 vmax. Only bullet that my rifle does not like is horn. 123's. Am very pleased with this rifle and the good advise from my friends at the range, who shoot competivly and some customers of mine who were glad to help.
Thought mabey i could get some advise here, instead of flames. If you want to call me one who runs at mouth and goes to car, bring your best guna and you money to wi. And well see who swallows the talk.
I also assembled( not built) many gas guns foself and friends/customers that shoot quite well and this was unusual for me to go with a bolt, and would like to see which brand of barrels diff. Shooters are using for gas gun creedmoor projects, rra have been very good barrels for me and also the 18" dan def. Brls. Some have even been quite supriseingly good but better not mention that and piss someone who has nothing better to do than shoot down on others off.
Good shooting anyways,
lessdrop
Lessdrop, you and your questions and comments are very welcome. The "heartbrake" of "senility" is a sad state of affairs, indeed :-(
Stay with it .... You'll get those pictures posted! Good luck-Good Shooting & Thanks!........ Jim ;-)
I believe you Lessdrop, it's good to have you here at Savage Shooters, I've seen a couple Savages's that are 1/4 guns. One of them however has a Bartlien 6BR 7.7 twist that has a massive fat chamber because of the elliminated barrel nut (shouldered barrel) on a Savage Target action and HS precision stock. The guy is an older highly experienced shooter and along with good reloading he can achieve dime size ten shot groups at 250 yard during a match. I know of 2 other 6 brs that are 1/4, one with a Brux and one with a Shilen select match. Im not trying to push the 6 BR because I don't have one yet but I will.LOL
Please don't misunderstand. I am all for hearing everybody's experiences and how they did it. However do not try to BS me or yourself.
By the way, I did not win today, got beat by a kid (50 +) and a nearly stock Rem 700 in 243. Still say the wind, rain. sleet. snow and, did I say, wind, blew his group together. He won with a 2 inch group at 200 yards.
As Fred said, consistent 1/4 minute rifles and shooters are few and far between.
So, bsekf, if I got it right, the winner shot 1 moa at 200 yds?
I too am a fan of 6br and other 6's. Used a friends br at a winter match in pinceton, mn for the 500 yd portion of the shoot. It was s ary accurate and a blast to shoot, but he had a schmidt and bender mounted on is rifle, and now anything ived used looks like junk. Never should have looked thru it or found turned the turret. I'm in serious Trouble now. Gotta save nickles, dimes, aluminum cans or whatever it takes to pinch money till some good glass comes my way. Dang!
I learned bs does not work about 53 years ago when i told my mom it was my brother that dirtied my diapers. Just too confusing to make up two more lies to cover each one before. That is unless it's something important like " no officer, i only had one can of beer". Bsing about group size is like cheating at golf when you play alone. Nothing to gain. So uless i am selling you a happy marrige with
My virgin sister, or telling you that 19 yr old chicks think i'm hot, no b.s. here.
I call truce. Peace. Merry Christmas. Happy new year.
Foxx, yes he shot MOA with a rifle that I have seen shoot < .5 MOA. Just not yesterday. Please do understand, these were not BR rifles, but most are capable of 1/2 MOA or less. I shot a 5 shot < .5 MOA groups with both my rifles on Saturday and yesterday I shot 2 MOA groups. Consistency is the Tur* in the punch bowl. My spotter said I caught a 30mph wind change just as I shot, plus I called an inch .....it was 4 inches out. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Bill
the question should be, Can you, as the shooter, shoot a 1/4moa aggregate with a certain rifle?
I believe that a Savage(with aftermarket barrel, proper bedding, etc) is surely capable of 1/4moa groups consistantly. However, it is all of the other variables that come into play that make that feat so rare(shooter, wind, reloading skills, parallax, shooting distance, etc).
Im sure all of us(or atleast most) have shot groups now and then of under 1/4moa, maybe even consistantly for a few range trips or so, but to average over a long period of time is extremely hard.
I am not ashamed to say that I know I cannot do it. I just do not shoot enough(what is enough anyway...LOL). I am 100% sure my 6br is capable, but I am not. I have shot some very small groups with it and have rarely shot any bad groups with it. I would guess that my agg should be around the mid to high .3 - low .4 moa area, as that is where the majority of my groups end up due to my own shooting errors(I dont shoot comp so i dont keep record of it. just going on memory). But to say it is the guns fault it isnt shooting under 1/4moa isnt fair. The only thing that I have proven is how consistant I am(or am not) as the shooter with that particular setup.
So my answer to the OP is, YES, I believe that a Savage rifle is capable.
Lets take a closer look at this question all together. The OP asked "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" When talking constantly this means every time the trigger is pulled that 9 time out of 10 the gun will put the shots in a 1/4 MOA hole. I would argue that not even the best Benchrest gun is able of doing this, even with the most experienced shooter. There is many things that affect shooting, such as Mirage, Wind, light, and many other conditions.
Don't believe me go through Benchrest match reports, and look at the aggregates shot. Yes, there is days where there will be small groups shot, but look at the overall picture. I will use for an example the last registered match I shot in. When we shot the NBRSA Eastern Finally, Greg Wally won with a over all .2512 2 gun Aggregate. This is just slightly over a 1/4 MOA. Hall of Fame member Jack Neary finished 2nd with a .2521 2 gun agg. And Ted Heindeselman (One of the best shooters I know.) finished 3rd with a .2534 2 gun agg. On Saturday we had very good conditions, many called it a "trigger pull contest," There was light rain, and very little to no wind. The flags sat limp most of the morning. This was a 100 yard match, with 5 shots shot at each record target. The best agg was a .1682 by Steve Theye, He shot very well, but when it came down to 4 match's his total aggregate was .2661. Back to the first 100 yard match the top 6 all shot under 1/4 MOA, Now from 7th to 25 all shot over a 1/4 MOA. Now if you take all of the shooters that shoot in this match with these good conditions, there total group aggregate come out to an average of .2885, well over a 1/4 MOA. Now out of this group, these was all experienced shooters shooting the best equipment money has to offer. I am not trying to cut anyone down, but to say that any rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA an given day all day long, is a bit far fetched.
Now going back to the original question: "Can a custom Savage shoot consistently under 0.25 MOA, or the action is the limit?" The answer is no, no gun can. To answer the part of your question about is a Savage limited by its action, the answer is no. A Savage action will hang with a Full custom action and be ever bit as competitive. In the end the action is only an ignition source, where true accuracy is at is in the barrel and bullets. As long as the action is operating in the right capacity, having proper firing pin travel, with the correct weight of spring to ensure proper ignition, they are all equal. Now there is some features that will help a shooter do better such as port configuration, trigger weight, bolt throw length, ETC, but they are only because they ensure confidence into the shooter, and they fell comfortable. There is a big mental aspect to this game.
Well put pdog.
Keep the information coming, it's the only way we can improve.
Bill
Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.
But I’ll have to disagree with your conclusions.
First, you can eliminate the variables you mentioned (Mirage, Wind, light) by shooting in a 100 yard rifle tunnel.
Second, there are manufacturers that build rifles with a guaranteed 0.25 MOA accuracy, and here’s an example:
“All of our M24E2 Rifles are guaranteed to produce sub 0.25 MOA Accuracy”
http://www.superiortactical.com/cust...013-m24e2.html
Was wondering if it would get back to that.Quote:
Thank you for focusing the debate on the original topic.
If they didn't "guarantee it", they couldn't charge $5,000+ for the rifle. Right? OTOH….what does "Guarantee" actually mean? The rifle will do this? Because it certainly can't mean the shooter will.
BTW….if you want a "Certification of Rifle (Nominal Average Accuracy Certification)" that's going to cost you an additional $200. Wha? First, I have to shell out $5,495, plus shipping and FFL transfer fees…..then to get written "acknowledgment" of the ¼ M.O.A. Accuracy Guarantee, I have to give them another $200? For what? A piece of paper that they already state the gun shoots anyway? What? I may have been born at night…..it just wasn't last night.
Dave
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
First off, even in a 100 yard tunnel there is still variables, just different variables than is found outside in the real world. A gun that is not in tune will never shoot no matter how good a for a shooter you place behind the trigger, or how good the conditions are. Here is an article that was in precision shooting magazine back around 1993 called "Secretes of the Houston Warehouse." http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html . I have talked to several shooters that have shoot in the Houston warehouse in the 1970's and 1980's, and they all said the same thing that they gained a wealth of knowledge in the warehouse, but for all intended purposes you could take all of the and throw it in the trash because it did not apply in the real world outside, where 99% of rifle shooters are going to shoot. So unless your intended purpose is to be shooting in a 100 yard tunnel 100% of the time you fire a rifle, then we have to pay close attention to the outside variables, and consider them part of the equation.
Last off these manufactures that guarantee .25 MOA accuracy, why don't you see any of them building Benchrest rifles? If they are truly that good why don't you see anyone competitively use one of them in Benchrest? They never state what there guarantee is, just that is will "produce sub .25 MOA accuracy." What does that exactly mean? Does it mean it will do this in a tunnel? I bet a Factory Savage with a good tune could accomplice this in a tunnel. Does this guarantee mean a 3 shot or a 5 shot or maybe a 2 shot group? They don't say. With this guarantee, I doubt they are talking an aggregate. I can shoot one group under .25, and say it is guaranteed to do this, but it doesn't mean it will do it every time, and that is what the OP is asking for a consistent .25 aggregate groups size. Last off I have seen people with these manufactured rifles attempting to shoot 600 yard Benchrest, I have yet to see one that has ever impressed me.
Hi Patrick, I wondered where you were. Everyone should read about the Houston Warehouse and the information on triggers and the action tolerance's. Realizing it was a long time ago and equipment has improved.....maybe.
I reiterate, consistent quarter minute rifles and shooters are few and far between and will win a lot of BR tournaments.
In regard to the OP, yes, I think a savage or most anything can be built to shoot consistent .25"s, but there are a lot of variables. Few of us can get all the moons aligned at the same time, let alone every time.
There are a lot of great targets posted in this 6 page discussion. Tell us what you have done to the rifle, and barrel, and reloading, and trigger and what a 10 shot group looks like.
Bill
Yes! Let's see that "guarantee " in detailed writing! :-)
Well, bad news I tried to call this company to ask about there guarantee, and I keep getting a message "Sorry this number has been discontinued." Even the BBB shows them as disconnected. http://www.bbb.org/evansville/busine...on-ky-90042577
There is a HUGE difference between 1/2 MOA performance and 1/4 MOA performance. Bragging up "5 shots covered by a dime" can be as much as 0.6". Pretty good. Great for gophers, but a long ways from 1/4 MOA performance. As noted by others, this is where the shooter is often going to reach his/her limit, no matter how good the equipment is.
This is my Savage M12 action with a Shilen barrel in 20VT.
[IMG]http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...ps73b97654.jpg[/IMG]
I've played with three different powders and three different bullets. On a given day I can do pretty well with any of them, including my fire form load below, shot at 100 yards:
[IMG]http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8258173d.jpg[/IMG]
I'm proud of it - but not hardly a 1/4 MOA group.
Part of the issue becomes my ability to even resolve my aiming point with the optics I am using. Many times I have found that shooting at a longer rage will allow me to refine my point of aim, replicate it better if you will, so while the group may not tighten up, the MOA improves as shown with this 200 yard group, which is finally approaching 1/4 MOA, but still isn't there:
[IMG]http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...psc3cde271.jpg[/IMG]
I don't know if the Savage ACTION is capable of 1/4 MOA. I know that I'M not capable of 1/4 MOA - at least not consistently. Better optics. Use a full rest instead of just a front and rear bag. Lots of things I could do, but basically I just want a 300 yard gopher gun. If I (me, the shooter) can hold 1/2 MOA to 300 yards, I'll be happy as can be.
No matter what it shoots it sure win a beauty contest any day!
Does shillen sell rifled blanks only or will they cut the chamber, thread, and leave long for headspace?
Shilen does drop-in barrels for Savage. You pick the caliber, barrel length and finish. They don't do fluting. They quoted me a six-month lead time back at the end of June. I received it in early August. Unfortunately, the end of the barrel was dinged when I got it - a couple of big nicks in it. No damage to the packaging. I called and e-mailed them. Can't say they were happy about it, but they didn't hassle me either. I sent it back and a little over two weeks later had the barrel. To this day I don't know if they were able to re-finish the crown or if they did a new barrel. I left that to their expertise and told them as long as I couldn't tell then I didn't care. I head-spaced it fairly snug on a virgin .221 Rem brass that was formed in a Redding .17 Mach IV form die - an Adam Bentley trick that is just about perfect for forming 20 VT brass. I have up to five firings on some cases now. Shoulder has moved less than .002 and have yet to even think about trimming.
The stock is a Boyd's thumbhole. It was one of the few aftermarket stocks available to fit the older 4.2 screw spacing. While it was a perfect drop-in fit, and finished pretty nicely, I hogged it out for a Devcon bedding job and sanded and sealed all the interior surfaces - including the vents. Also used Birchwood Casey "stock sheen" to give it a little finer finish - but for $100 I have no complaints at all about the Boyd's stocks.
Thanks Dave. But since I won't be spending the $5,000 or the $200, it's a moot point anyway. :-)
Wha?….I though we could go together and get…like maybe a 2% discount if we bought two of 'em!! http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...zz/popcorn.gif
;-(
I'am thinking that the key word is "consistantly"! I've shot a few groups that measured in the 1s so I know it can be done. My best so far measured .110" and it could be covered with a dime and have room to spare.
As far as shooting five 5 shot groups? That's another different animal. The load that shoots good one day may not be as good the next day.
I made it a point to shoot 5 groups the other day. Nothing special with the ammo. Groups started off bigger than I wanted and got smaller as the rig warmed up. Came up with as average of .556". Not one of my better days. I'll keep after it till I see exactly what my rigs can do.
As far as shooting sage rats or P dogs? I've got the rigs capable of deadly accuracy. In a "compitition enviornment"? Well, that's another story. And, no use putting hair on my targets. The results were just not as good as I expected or was looking for. I'll keep trying!
Here is a target I shot in a match earlier this year, it is a 5 shoot 100 yard group.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ps3ea01f4e.jpg
Yes the gun has occasionally shot many small groups like this, and the gun has shoot .25 aggs in the past, But I would still not say even with that that the gun is a 1/4 MOA gun, yes it is capable, but it has also shot some big groups and big aggs. Last match I shot it in I aged a .385 well over 1/4 MOA. The fact is; to say a gun will consistently shoot 1/4 MOA or better is a fable.
Most of us varmint shooters are pretty proud of ourselves when we can brag about our groups being "covered by a dime." That dime comes pretty close to covering a 0.6" center-to-center group. Not quite the 1/4 MOA metric the original post was asking about - unless you are shooting that dime size group at something outside of 200 yards.
We blame it on the rifle. Or we blame it on the load. But generally, unless we are shooting from a machine rest, we usually have to blame it on ourselves.
I just look at the equipment used most often by the "winners" in BR competition. Yes, there are some competitors using Savage actions, and I am pretty sure that my Savage action isn't the weak link in my shooting chain. But the top shooters are trying to achieve and willing to PAY to eke out that that last quarter of an inch. Much more difficult to go from 0.5" to 0.25" than it is to go from 1.0" to 0.5". Until you get pretty darn good, you are going to have a hard time saying that your action is capable of 1/4 MOA. Issues with barrel, optics, bullets, load and most of all, the shooter, are going to have to resolved before you fuss too much with the action - or you take the short-cut and pay the money to buy the best of everything that you can possibly afford, so then you KNOW it is YOU and not the equipment.
Like what Patrick says:
"To win in bench rest, you don't have to shoot small groups, you just can't shoot any big ones".
That says a whole lot. Bug holes for shooting varmints are one thing but a 25 shot string in compitition, well that's another story.
Never shot in compitition and my guess is, I probably wouldn't be that good. At least I'am trying.