Not sure of how many ways there are to Nitride, but have been warned that some leave to much coverage behind making chambers small and filling shallow rifling. Make sure you know what your getting into and you are using the right process!!
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Not sure of how many ways there are to Nitride, but have been warned that some leave to much coverage behind making chambers small and filling shallow rifling. Make sure you know what your getting into and you are using the right process!!
MMI TRUTEC is the one recommended by the benchrest shooter on the u-tube video. I am having one done now, and will report back when i get it...it is a CBI bbl that has been spiral fluted, an SSS muzzle brake installed, and Lisa @ SSS is forwarding it to Freedom Gunworks INC. to be done. I have read that the process can be less than ideal if done with out regard to the cleanup process, but if you talk with the company doing it (there are a couple good ones) and make sure to spell out what you are expecting, then you should be ok...just always be specific about what you want, and what they promise.....e-mails are the best, gives you proof of what was wanted and was promised.....saved me $2200.00 on a car once!!!!!!rsbhunter
Hello Gentleman, my name is Bobby Keigans from Freedom Gunworks. I was lead to this thread and wanted to answer a few questions or concerns some of you may be having.
Pricing - My price is the same if I send in 2 or 25 barrels, so the cost would be the same to you guys regardless of how many you send. MMI-Trutec does the SBN process for some major manufactures sending in hundreds of the same part. They are not a small job shop and their interest is in doing production oriented work.
Clean up - Your barrels need to be as clean as possible before sending them in. I suggest not firing more than 30 rounds through the barrel before sending it in. I recommend a few rounds to soften any burs from the machining process and smooth out the transition from the chamber to the bore leads. If you send in a barrel that has fire cracking or throat erosion the process could cause negative effects, radically decreased bbl life and a loss of accuracy.
Processing - MMI uses a lower grade of temperature and chemical composition specifically formulated for barrel steel. It will NOT hurt the accuracy of a properly chambered and threaded rifle barrel. Additionally, it has been shown to increase velocity and makes cleaning a fouled bbl extremely easy. There are many companies offering salt bath nitriding, that doesn't mean they have the experience necessary to process firearms components. If someone commented to Mr. Berger that they were unhappy with the results of the process, that someone should be asked WHO processed their barrel. We have nitrided barrels out there winning major benchrest and F-Class matches. I've done several personal barrels myself and am completely happy with the results (and yes, I have high standards as well)
Post-processing - It is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting. I suggest using a mild abrasive such as Flitz, Iosso, or JB Bore Paste on a tight fitted patch. Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. Don't expect your old load to shoot the same. My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order.
Turn around - Turn around time takes 3-5 weeks. I send out batches every other week. There is a 3-4 day shipping time, MMI has the batch for 3-4 days, then there is a 3-4 day return shipping time to me. Add weekends in there and you'll basically burn up 3 weeks.
If you have any other questions, feel free to call me at the shop 229-330-4867. If I don't answer leave a message and I'll call you back. If you'd rather email (which is probably better) you can contact me at sales@freedomgunworks.com
Bobby, i am having my barrel sent direct to you after having a muzzle brake installed at SSS...Lisa said it would go out either today (Tue-5-3-2011) or tomorrow, with a tag so you know who it belongs to, as well as a note with my address.Thanks for taking the time to post that info, as there is alot of misconceptions about the process.... Am sending you an e-mail with some questions about some work i need done.....rsbhunter
Are there any special preparation details needed for other parts, barrel nuts, muzzle brakes, fittted parts?
Aside from getting matching finishes, are there any advantages to doing the action as well?
SC
Are there any special preparation details needed for other parts, barrel nuts, muzzle brakes, fittted parts?
If there is bluing it must be removed. Toilet bowl cleaner works well with a fine steel wool.
I have the action done to our two serious hunters because the metal will in no way rust. The bolt also works like a dream when opening and closing.
Neal
This is my email trail from Bobby from Freedom gunworks about nitriding parts other than the barrel
MY QUESTION
I just read your post on savage shooters forum. Thank you for clearing up several points. My question is will you accept and will they nitride other parts ie the recoil lug, barrel nut, action, bolt body and handle etc
BOBBY'S ANSWER
recoil lugs are fine as are barrel nuts. For actions and bolts it depends on the type of action. We try to explain to our (FGW) customers that actions and bolts are done at the risk of the customer
MY FOLLOW UP QUESTION
I have a savage 110 action what is the risk?
BOBBY'S ANSWER
A Savage action should be fine, but we at Freedom Gunworks assume no responsibility in the rare occurrence that something should happen
Boy, if that doesn't raise a red flag or two, I don't know what would! I don't mean with the company, just with getting an action done.
Talked to Defiance about getting their large action nitrited - no problem. Some actions are made differently ???? and they will refuse to do them. It does make you wonder.....
Rodney Lanier to meQuote:
Originally Posted by 319
show details May 2 (6 days ago)
Russ,
The check can be made out to Rodney Lanier. Out of hundreds of barrels processed, two actions cracked because they ran assembled. Now we don't take any chances, all barrels and actions have to be seperate and without knowing heat treat history I can't stand behind the action.
It was mentioned elsewhere that not all actions are heat treated to the same degree. Obviously that could cause problems with some actions since the nitriding process get up toward 1000 degrees.
Anyone know what temp Savage actions are heat treated too? if they are all the same or did some years or models differ? should we be worried about sending our actions or not? I think Neal has some actions done maybe we will hear from him on this.
Not everyone is doing the same thing at the same temperature.
However, one would have to cook a Savage action @ 1500 degrees for some hours to take the hardness out of the action. No one to my knowledge comes close to this heat nor time in bath.
I can see where a business man would decline to accept responsibility for hardening (Nitriding) an action when he knows that certain protocol was followed by different manufacturers for hardening their actions. Savage, Remington and whomever is building an action sends their actions out for stress testing to assure us as the purchaser the action is safe. Once a heat treater dips he assumes the responsibility.
Some of us have punched actions before and after Nitriding with little effect or change after Nitriding. One of my actions (Savage was done at 1200 degrees for an hour before they quenched it at 750 in oil. It was 69R on the outside and 39R under the Nitride. It was 42 R prior to treatment. Fred has done a whole lot more than I with Savages so he would be better on the hardness thing. I know from punching 6 Actions for hardness the front of the action or receiver end of the action ran between 40-43R and the rear bridge ran 39-41R.
I know that Savage does not stress relieve with heat or fluid because my actions moved when I had it done to them. I had to relieve bedding and open up the screw holes a few thou because the action did not fit in the stock when I got it back without forcing it in by hand. SO I am going to guess that Savage uses electricity to harden their actions.
Neal
Is this process equally applicable to CM or SS barrels/actions?
SC
Have you had bolts/firing pins, etc harden along with the actions? Let's say I want the whole thing done. I assume I should take the barrel off, take the trigger assembly off the action, remove bolt, and remove all springs. Should I put the stripped action, along with bolt body, firing pin, and lugs in a bag? Just wondering what small parts should be (or can be) done. I'm definitely going to get my new 6.5x55 barrel done after I fire 20 rounds or so through it, but still on the fence about whether or not to do the action (does the bluing need to be removed?)Quote:
Originally Posted by 358Hammer
Regards,
-Dan
Superchuck
I asked this same question on a previous thread and Neal said it works for both, and you cant tell a difference if you started with SS or CM it all turns out the same.
Re: Nitride the barrel
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2011, 10:20:21 PM » Quote Modify Remove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are there any special preparation details needed for other parts, barrel nuts, muzzle brakes, fittted parts?
If there is bluing it must be removed. Toilet bowl cleaner works well with a fine steel wool.
I have the action done to our two serious hunters because the metal will in no way rust. The bolt also works like a dream when opening and closing.
5-10-11 6:30 a.m.
I personally have reservations with having firing pins,springs,trigger assemblies heated or re-heated so will not do anything to these other than wipe them clean. Bolt bodies and handles I will do if I feel like it.
Neal
Thank you Neal. I believe I'll just have the barrel, stripped action, and bolt body done. Now to pick up some toilet bowl cleaner...
Regards,
-Dan
Thanks, I thought I had seen that somewhere, but could not re-find it to confirm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESSCEE
Just talked to Bobby at Freedom Gunworks. He quoted me:
Barrel: $75
Action/with components (recoil lug/bolt body, etc.): $75
Return shipping: ~$20
He said they had to go up a bit on price because when they ship an order to MMI, they have to insure for about $10k, and shipping rates/insurance etc. have gone up. That's understandable, and $75 is still a good deal if it gives me twice the barrel life. He was helpful on the phone and I look forward to sending him my business.
Regards,
-Dan
Been kicking around the idea of a 6mm Rem AI but have heard horror stories of 500 round barrels so this is a very interesting subject.
Just got my 243 wssm back yesterday. Total of 4-5weeks to get it back to my door. The finish looks great, kind of a tactical flat black look, and is extremely smooth. The chamber appears to be very smooth also. Not sure when I will get to shoot it yet.
Has anyone gotten a barrel salt-dipped through Benchmark without having fired it in first? They lap the cutter marks/burrs off the chamber before sending the barrel off and say the barrel doesn't need to broken in first. I believe them based on their reputation but I'm looking for some first hand info.
To 358Hammer, according to your experiences, the action does move some after nitriding, so my question is, does it matter if you do a time and true before or after nitriding?
Thanks
Charlie
AZ-
First time I did the Nitriding without shooting first I was extremely puckered. It was a Savage 300RUM barrel ( unfired). This barrel shoots with my Benchmark barrels and shoots all loads .250 or less and has since the first group.
I have a number of barrels now that were sent in unfired condition and they all are oneholers!
Charlie
I can not say where the movement will be. Savage does not stress relieve actions. Facing the legth of the action as in truing is not going to change things much by Nitriding in my opinion. But when you apply heat she will move some! This would be a catch 22 as No one is going to want to eat tooling truing.
Exception to last Statement! MMI/ Nitride is only .001-.002 thick as opposed to others I have had do this process and they are .003-.004. I had to punch the top porting holes in my 375 RUM brake after Nitride a couple weeks ago. The holes were .200 and I simply used a high speed bit! Three of them for six holes. If one uses carbide and you tell the guy ahead of time what he is up against one should have no problems. It took the first two bits for the first two holes ( learning Curve). Coming out the other side of the material is different than going in for some reason.
Please don't forget to tell the smith ahead of time and give him the option of declining or at least speaking with me as he will be really angry if he finds out about the 70R hardness on his own!
Neal
Mr. Hammer - the issue I see is that if you T&T before Nitride of receiver, you will have you have the potential for "movement."Quote:
Originally Posted by 358Hammer
If you T&T after nitride, you have the tooling issues AND you loose the Nitride effects of corrosion resistance AND hardening on both the LUG and LUG engagement areas in the receiver?
So, would it be possible to
1) stress relieve
2) T&T
3) Nitride
or
1) Nitride
2) T&T
3) ??Re-Nitride??
someone suggested none of this is "needed"
but
it seems "useful."
Have you done both T&T and Nitride on receivers and bolt lugs or all 3 of the above?
and
with what results?
thanks
Phil
Phil
I quit T&T ing actions years ago as I saw no need in most cases. Just like many, many years ago I quit measuring every bullet,case,kernal of powder during a stint in the benchrest game.
If one is in the accuracy game to win something then I suppose one may want to do everything possible to elliminate any chance of an error or tighten up that group. Personally I have a bunch of barrels that literally shoot into one hole. I am a hunter only so these barrels do what I need and then some.
The action that moved was T&T a long time ago, then Nitrided when I ran across the process a year ago. Understanding the principles of stress relieving simply put," the material returns to a neutral state". All of my Benchmark barrels are stress relieved as a natural course of events after machining. Nitriding was done afterwards so a neutral state was achieved prior to Nitride.
Nitriding for me served two purposes specifically.
1. Fastest per caliber barrels in any caliber anywhere.
2. A whole lot cheaper finish and impervious barrel anywhere.
A side benefit: I have always liked quality blued barrels for their warm appearance. Stainless is stainless unless one wants to spend the bucks to paint stainless.
Is this worth it? For me T&T is not relevant any longer. You have to decided for your self!
Neal
Lots of interesting discussion, but what are the specific "in the field" outcomes of the benefits of this process?
taylorwkrs
Finally got to put some rounds down the nitride 243 wssm today. Velocity looks amazing at 3900 fps with 49gr 760 and 70 gr Sierra HPBT and 3350 with 95 gr Berger with 44gr 760. This is a 28" shillen barrel. Accuracy remained the same with .75-.50 at 100. Probally could be better but I was rushed and never really shoot one hole groups anyway. I am pleased.
did my 243wssm Dtech a few weeks ago.. "schillen match"
when u get it back, 2 things MUST be done...
1 clean the snot out of the barrel... if you have JB bore past use that...
2 clean/polish the chamber... "this i didnt do..." the extraction was SO HARD on my 1st shot the case stuck in the chamber and i had to tap it out with a rod.. and the extractor nearly tore the side of the case off...
for the next 4 shots it got better and better..
EDIT: this was sent to MMI
I had none of those issues and went through Freedom Gun Works. They use MMI/ TrueTec. Not sure if Dtech is the same company??????
mine went to MMI...i sent it
Don't know about "dtec", but on the bbl i had done by MMI/Trutec, by Bobby at Freedon Gunworks....you do need to REALLY clean the bore.....alot!!!! Then i did shoot and noticed that the chamber left a scuffed apperance on the base of the casing, which did go away with tumbling...When i got home, i cleaned the bore for a long time....and took JB's bore paste and put a patch on a nylon brush, chuckeked into a cordless drill (slower than corded) and polished the chamber with it. I am waiting on a new cleaning rod, then i will JB paste the bore for 20 or so strokes and see if i get any color out of it..... Have heard that Brux nitrides there bbls and then hand laps them AGAIN after the nitriding.....whit a R70 hardness, i can't can't see it hurting anything......rsbhunter
rsbhunter
I'm curious where you heard Brux nitrides their barrels. I just got one from them and it looks like regular stainless to me. Also I don't see it on their web site, maybe it's a service I didn't know about.
i might have confused Brux with another bbl company, i apologize, I know one of the companies offer it , for like an additional $125.00, and they lap the bbl after....It's the brand that hammer358 uses (once again, i think!!!!) ring31, who do you know at MMI? I tried to send my bbl to them, and they said they would not take bbls from individuals! At all!. Not a big deal, but that was the word i got from the guy at MMI that is a benchrest shooter, or was, or whatever.... Wish we could, would save some $$$ for freight, etc...rsbhunter
these guys will be doing 2 guns for me to review
http://www.blacknitride.com/aboutus.html
im taking them in this week.. will post back when i have them
Ring31,
do you know what they charge for barrels/actions/whole guns? So we can compare their prices to others. Im considering doing a barrel. Thanks.
Brian
I just thought I'd throw a post out to give the current price from Benchmark. I just got my 6mm BR Striker barrel from them and the nitriding cost $200. I believe this included lapping the barrel after it got back from nitriding. The total cost of the completed barrel from Benchmark, including nitriding, was $600 plus shipping and tax (since I live in WA). I won't get a chance to shoot it for another week or two, but I"ll post some results after I do.
Andrew
just got the 260 back from H&M, so far hand down better then MMI
http://blacknitride.com/index.html
PICS
http://min.us/mdyTh2V
ill right up a full review later this week...
i went on a full tour of the plant while i was there along with Chris Cerino and Iain Harrison from top shot...
we saw PALLETS of S&W ar barrels, and M&P slides, LWRC, AAC, robinson arms, and about a dozen other custom rifles and pistols makers getting processed..
ill be getting test data from them provided by S&W and LWRC saying that barrels they tested with there finish shot better after 10,000 rounds then there old "new" barrels...
at the production level, having this done is 1/2 the cost of chrome+ phosphate..
they have a full test lab for microscopic analyses and salt spray chamber at the place as well....
[img width=600 height=398]http://i.min.us/jeGG5P7aR.JPG[/img]
Hey Ring31, the rig looks great! Do you mind letting us know how much the guys at blacknitride (H&M??) charge so we could compare it to other options. Also, do they do single barrels? Thanks!
So close to sending a barrel in for nitriding.
they will do a full gun, barrel, action "or fully barreled action" and bolt, "u must remove ALL springs!" for 200$Quote:
Originally Posted by artifactr
if you have a few you want done, he will work with you to REALLY lower the cost..
im setting up a "group buy" over on M4carbine.net, and getting barrels "no actions since im taking them in, and im not a ffl" "no bolts" for 50$+shipping
That's a great price on the group buy.. can you post a link to the thread here? I would probably do that.
my full review..
https://sites.google.com/site/freeba...lonite-and-qpq
i have done 6 barrels now, and a bunch of smaller parts
Great info Ring
Good stuff ring. I wish I would have got this done before I put 340 rounds down the tube of my 260AI criterion barrel. Well, next barrel!!!
Dear 358Hammer, you previously mentioned that you no longer do T&T. Yet one benifit of timing is getting the bolt to work smoothly. If only the bolt is done, and not the action, can you still get the bolt to work like dream? Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by 358Hammer
I am going to guess yes. The reason I guess is I haven't personally done it. Yes is based upon the fact that I did an action and use untreated bolts in the action of which they are quite smooth. I also have a spring and bearing kit in the bolts so everything I use opens with one finger.
It is smooth like butter.
My favorite option is to do bolt and action with the bearing/spring_ It is as smooth on one could possibly want it.
Neal
Thank you very much for your informative advice, 358Hammer.
Just got my second barrel back from Freedom Gunworks for nitriding. Unlike the first barrel, a Shillen 243 wssm that had an average 150-200fps velocity increase, the criterion 243 win. had a 20-30fps velocity decrease per every load tested. I was not expecting the velocity drop at all that is for sure. It does shoot well though and the 100 gr and 105 gr loads seem to be way more consistent.
Just wondering if anyone else had this drop??????