duplicate post, and out of intended context as written.
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duplicate post, and out of intended context as written.
Well......right now it seems that way.
This is what I've gleaned so far and my opinion only.....
You have to remember this is all done via EO for now. IF the Republican gets in, he has promised to repeal all of the EO's....if so...this will all go away. IF the Dems take the presidency, it's going to get worse, not better. I'm waiting to make my final decision after the elections. But I'm also putting somethings into motion JUST IN CASE the Republican doesn't get in.
At this point, they also have no real reinforcement mechanism in place from everything I've read. What little they do have in place is completely overwhelmed right now. It would be like putting a stop sign up and have no cops to enforce it. Now one thing to consider though....this thing has some REAL teeth in it for penalties if they choose to make an example out of someone.
So don't make a decision lightly.
This will be challenged in court at some point also......but it's a toss up on the out come. Most of that will depend on this election.
This is probably THE MOST important election in our lifetime......or longer.
So far, this is my pattern of thinking. I'm still researching this though.
There is no Executive Order. This is simply the DOS changing their definition of what is and is not considered "manufacturing" as it applies to DDTC and ITAR.
Also, it's not "if" this becomes law, it already is the law and has been for decades. The only thing that's changed are what specific acts or services the DOS considers to be manufacturing that would require the registration under DDTC.
Jim...has it been around that long!!!! WOW! I've heard that it was slipped in ambiguously about 5 years ago. ITAR was suppose to regulate international arms trade with other countries......as I understand it, this is their attempt to regulate arms within our own nation now to a much greater degree than before.
I agree. I think that is the whole deal here. The current administration has created a new culture that seeks more power and is eager to interpret their roles in a way that justifies or enables whatever agenda they seek. In this case, the State Department is acting the same way the president does when he issues Executive Orders so as to make policy without enacting laws. In this case, they want to destroy the gun industry.
I may begoing out on a limb here, but I believe the problem is rooted in the AR-15 debacle. Liberals want them outlawed. They can't do that right now, but they can make them more difficult for common citizens to obtain. They can make them more expensive, for example. Currently, there are a lot of companies making parts and kits that drive down the cost of building them. What might currently cost a guy $500-600 to build himself or with the help of a gunsmith would, if this action is carried out successfully, might end up costing $1,000 if the only companies making them are Ruger, Remington, Colt, Winchester, etc. THey can afford the fees, but the small companies and gunsmiths can't. In the end, the cost of these "Assault Rifles" that are threatening the Americans or American government because they are so easily produced and so affordable will go up and be less popular.
AR's are the "Saturday Night Special" of the 1970's and 80's and liberals are afraid of them because of their capabilities.
What has gotten lost in the shuffle and our own interest is that these regs and orders are being interpreted, handed down, revised, changed, etc. for many industries. The gun lobby has seen as much pressure applied as anybody, but we have to realize that the ideology of this current administration has had 7 1/2 years to permeate, fill voids, and take over the thought process in the huge Washington bureaucracy. This large Washington bureaucracy wields tremendous power that is usually runs under the radar. This is one of many possible roadblocks that will come up the next few years. It takes years to "clean" house of a certain ideology.
Norm....Jim....
I'm just asking your opinions based on what you've learned......
Do you think the elections will change these "definitions" of what manufacturing is? Or is this something that is going to be permanent?
That's what I'm afraid of. It's a lot harder to undo a law than to pass one.
Also, I mentioned earlier that I spoke with a rep from the State Department today (or yesterday????). We spoke for over an hour, and he told me he was not at liberty to discuss it any further, but there are MORE regulations coming. MORE restrictions based upon this department's "stretch" of their interpretation of their own authority. What we have seen thus far is only the tip of the ice berg. He added, though, that they are relying on US and our input to help them figure out what is "reasonable and doable".
For example, he was almost suggesting that it is not their intention to stop you from building barrels for bolt action sporting rifles, (or maybe me from building and selling 450BM's to deer hunters in southern Michigan), but, at the same time, they don't necessarily understand the ramifications or the unintended consequences of their actions. As I see it, that means there are good, reasonable people making policy within the State Department that may be on our side, but there is also those who do not want to protect our niche.
In your OPINION........if the Republicans win the presidency, will this be reversed?
Better chance than if the Dems win. There are enough Dems that want to shut us all down...
If I read this guy correctly, the State Department has no issue with you building Savage Pre-fits ( or me building Savage 450BM's), but they don't know how to allow one (us) and not the other (ar-15's). They probably don't want you to build ar-15 barrels, though.
I encourage you to make your case with them.
The problem is I build for the AR's also.......nor do I think it's right for them to try and regulate AR's out of the reach of anyone that can legally own one.
I may contact them, but I don't like letting the Feds know anymore than I have too. I just don't trust our government anymore....no matter who is in power.
I understand, Jim. and I agree.
We gotta fight this under principal for all within the industry. However, we also gotta make our case with those in power where we think we might win. I am with you, Jim. 100%. Believe me, it was not easy for me to write and ask for clarification as to whether what I wanted to do fell under their authority or not. I hated to divulge anything to them. However, I did not think I had a choice, once I knew the regs and their intentions and interpretations.
With the exception of the 94 AWB being allowed to expire, has there ever been a reversal of federal gun control legislation or executive order? On the other hand, I'm sure we can think of increases in gun control under a Republican-controlled White House and Congress.
This might prove useful to you guys
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/obam...38ddf-20569821
I am just curious where does that $2250.00 number come from, it's just odd.
Dean
I am a relative newbie on this site, and know that little of what I write commands any respect from you guys, but you might consider this from my years of owning a business built upon my reputation and skill.
Small businesses are rarely the target of new regulations, especially ITAR regs. With this reputed Executive Action, and now it has become clear is NOT an EA, we see bureaucrats trying to improve their regulatory reach with regard to a law that's been on the books for a long time.
That's a big SO WHAT? in my book. For now, you can just ignore it, and if the regulatory agency in charge thinks YOUR business falls under the scope of the law, they'l send you a letter stating such, which you can copy your to congressman if you find it'll adversely effect you business.
As far as the fee associated, it's pretty small, all things considered. IF you're operating a small business, less than $500k a year gross income, you can probably get the fee waived, or a least it is a tax deduction. It's really not a game changer unless you're a micro business, then your small fry as far as the Gov't is concerned.
My business fell under one of the most heavily regulated industries in America. Remember the 9/11 attacks in NY? I got a call two days later stating I had to give up my entire customer list, addresses, phone numbers, Credit cards, SSN's, everything.
I ignored it. And sure enough, cooler heads prevailed and within a couple of weeks, it all went away.
So don't get your knickers in a knot on this, and especially don't advance the idea of any kind of insurrection. That'll just give the loonies more ammo to use against us.
Regardless of who is in the Oval Office next year, we have a Republican lead House and Senate, and the NRA has a powerful lobbying force. The Senate may change a bit in the upcoming election, but I read nothing about a predicted wholesale change to Demo in both houses, Trumps big mouth notwithstanding.
So relax, chill out, have a beer, and stop watching FOX network, in fact you might just cut your cable as I did. Your blood pressure will drop dramatically, and you'll be a lot happier overall. I got a Roku stick on my TV and pick and choose what I watch. Couldn't be happier.
For those gunsmiths and manufacturers that are unaware, I also recently did an article on the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax - If You Thought ITAR was Bad...Firearms and Ammunition Manufacturing, Importing (and Gunsmithing) Taxes.
First, let me say I KNOW there was no intent for insults or disrespect in your reply....nor were any perceived on my part.
This entire regulation IS DIRECTLY TARGETING the small fry businesses. My business consists of ONE employee.....ME. The profits on prefit barrels are not all that great once you figure in all of the costs involved in producing them. Then you still have all the normal business costs of local, state and federal licenses, fees and such. The IRS gets more than their fair share also....then $2250 divided among, say 100 barrels just to keep it easy math.....is $22.50 per barrel. This is directly the result of this so called fee. For me.....it has to get passed to the customer directly therefore driving up prices. My larger competitors can afford to absorb these fees somewhat and likely will not have to raise their prices as much if at all.....So where does that leave me?
A larger company will be able to absorb it relatively easily. Me on the other hand......well the writing's on the wall. The Feds are targeting me and my kind. They do not want me in business. And as you've correctly stated, I'm VERY small fry in the government's eyes......but don't think they will not pay attention to small fry as you've mentioned.....just ask the IRS if they will look away from small business just because you're small. Since I'm such small fry....do you think my email to my senators and congressman will really have any weight to it? Let answer that one for you......NO. VERY unlikely. It will surprise me if I get any response at all.....I MAY get some kind of form letter thanking me for contacting them. But even that hasn't happened yet.
I'm just a lower middle class white man trying to make a living in a country that has decide it doesn't like me anymore. Doesn't like the job I do. Nor has any respect for the values I stand for. And people wonder why I'm paranoid.
Thank you for your kindness, Apache. I was about to delete my post, sure that I was about to get hammered by the flame-throwers from hell. So I'd like to respond to your response.
First of all, your business is not driven by lowest cost. You are the business, and your workmanship is what draws customers to your site. So I really don't think this will be a big impact to your business. IF it were me, I'd just add a separate line item to your billings that details your new ITAR fee. Say $25.00 per barrel. As an example, every flight school in America used this technique when gas prices rose extraordinarily fast. It was a line item surcharge, and I can say that my business remained robust.
If your customers gripe, just point them to your/their congressman by handing them a pre-printed letter advocating your position, with address and have them sign and send it off.
If EVERY effected gunsmith does this, Congress will be inundated with letters from today forward until the law is stricken.
Think of the power of this.....every transaction by every effected business begins including a letter with pre stamped and addressed envelope.
Yes, i know...lots of extra work for a couple of months (wait until congress returns from summer recess).
Or better yet, start an online letter signing campaign. Or do both. Form a collaborative with other gunsmiths, share the workload.
You or I don't have millions to buy face to face time with our congressman, (even though mine lives just over the fence from me) but they do read their mail. So print something up here, I'll print it out and sign, tie a rock to it and throw it through his friggen window if that's what it takes. LOL ....just kidding. His office is only a mile away and I've been there before. I'll hand deliver it to his very attractive assistant. Wait, no.....that's even more likely to get me in trouble.....:crutch:
Every write-up and discussion I've seen on this thus far focuses on the gunsmithing aspect of it and totally ignores Section 3 - Registration Required Other Than Manufacturing which states "Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may constitute the export of a defense service (see 22 CFR § 120.9) and require ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC." That's the part that would apply to me and this site and my other firearm related sites. The DOS deliberately leaves it as vague and unspecific as possible with the "may constitute" langauge. Well what "may" and what "may not" exactly?
I've basically decided that for my purposes it's just going to be business as usual around here until the Jack Boots show up at my door telling me to stop. They decide they want to fine me $1 million for running a website I'll say fine and walk down the street to my attorney's office and tell him to start drawing up bankruptcy papers. They want to throw me in prison for 20 years for running a website so be it, the way I see it I'll be out of business and no longer have an income so that will just ensure I have a roof over my head and 3 hot meals a day for the next 20 years, and when I get out I'll only have a few years until I can draw Social Security (assuming it still exists at that point).
I admire your tenacity, Mr. Furious however, I would hope to see a craftily worded letter as a sticky on every board on your site, along with a list of addresses to send to.
I say we give'm hell.....in writing of course.
Lord knows I want to fight this and contribute to the effort in any way possible. Of course, I, too, have a lot at stake currently, but as a matter of principal, as well.
This is going to be my last post on this as I have way too much work to do to get tied up on the forums with this anymore.
The threat to forums by this crap is just as real as the rest of it. They are really stretching their muscles in threatening the first and second amendments with all of this. The problem will be IF they are even successful with a little of this, which is likely, it will leave something for them to build on later. The WHOLE THING should be trashed from beginning to end.....even the "periods" should be trashed........The only governing agency for this type of thing should be the BATF instead of multiple agencies with conflicting opinions. That would be plain common sense though......something they obviously know nothing about since they think their rulings and definitions are "common" understanding.
It simply boils down to this: Pay to play or fight it and take your chances. I'm waiting to make a final decision for the elections this fall if at all possible. I am going to put some other options in motion - just in case - that will hopefully work out.
But this doesn't look good right now to me. I've seen a lot of forum chatter at first, but very little actual contacting of governmental representatives. Even the forum chatter is slowing down now.
We're just a frog enjoying a nice warm bath.....water's a little warmer than it was a few minutes ago it seems.....pretty soon, we're gonna be that cooked frog and it'll be too late.
If your neighbors house is burning, don't just stand there and watch. Your house might be next.
Y'all take care!!!
Jim
Yes, BOTH Mr. Furious and Apache are right. The forums AND the gunsmiths are being attacked equally. As such, ALL of America is being attacked here. This is INSANE. We are ALL being shutdown.
I simply don't know what to do about it. I feel impotent.
It's like I am sitting at the embassy in Benghazi screaming for help and no one is listening or responding. The difference, of course, is I am sitting here with ALL of America around me, yet none of my friends and neighbors even care the rpg's are coming in thru the windows.
PLEASE, SOMEONE here must have ideas or suggestions on what to do.
In desperation I just called the NRA-ILA 800-672-3888, prompt 5
I was told they are working to address this with the Legislature, but because Obama took this step now, as legislators are busy campaigning, they are unable to get their attention. They are supposedly working on building a case to fight this in the courts, but it will be very slow. He said even they did not recognize how FRAGILE our system is. This type of "end-around" is swift and effective. When an administration is willing and able to rework the system and force their agendas and initiatives upon us by essentially creating a new department or authorizing preexisting, albeit unrelated departments, to take action in his favor, i.e. cheat, we do not have an effective way of responding.
Just as soon as I posted the above, the NRA called me asking me to listen to Wayne explain the situation to me so they could get more donations from me to help fund their lobbying efforts and support their/our gun friendly legislators get reelected. Well, okay, I would like to do that, but Obama has already, essentially, cut my throat! I am bleeding out, HIS gun is at MY head and I'm reaching for my wallet to help fund someone's campaign efforts to be elected to an IMPOTENT legislative body!
I should have asked the guy if he could make a nondeductible contribution to MY cause. I need to raise $2,250 real quick-like.
Oh, but wait, that won't help Apache and Mr. Furious or the rest of the forum members here.
Wait, WHAT? I thought it was clear that this was NOT an Executive Order. Now you're reporting that the NRA says it was?
It was/is executive ACTION. It is a new way of doing business. Appoint a department to usurp power from a different department or branch of government. The constitution and model for the republic be ****ED!
Don't you see????!!!!!!
There were laws written intended to empower the State Department to prevent defense secrets and weapons, munitions, technology, etc. from getting into the hands of our nation's (and allies) enemies. Then, when no one who cared was looking, Obama instructed them (the State Department) to "turn the guns" on US! and no one (of any consequence) screamed "FOUL!"
As the fictional western character Josie Wales might say to Obama and Hilary, "Mr. President, don't piss down my (the American people's) back and tell me it's raining."
Well, he is, and what's worse, he's LAUGHING at us while he does so.
Oh, FUDGE! I just sound like a raging lunatic.
I have been involved with competition shooting and hunting since I was in Jr HI School. I love the sport.
I can't believe we are all being faced with a situation like this. I have written several concerning my opinion on these restrictions.
Basically the law abiding USA citizen is being hurt because of a few idiots.
I am not giving up, I will still voice my concerns whenever possible.
Following all the laws and fees are making it tough on the small business man. Most people don't realize what it takes to keep a small business running and always think they are being overcharged. It looks like it's only going to get worse.
Dennis
Here's another article explaining this topic:
https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/07/2...-registration/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So Gunsmiths need to be regulated (more than in the past) because they MIGHT be building illegal, automatic rifles...
Why not regulate plumbers and pipe fitters the same way... they MIGHT be building pipe bombs!
Moreover, there has been no crimes committed with automatic (illegal) weapons, anyhow.
Well in the short run, the only thing we can do is realize who our friends are and vote accordingly.
Starting like right now there are two important primaries in WI. and AZ.
We need to sweep the place out thouraly. We might shoot ourselves in the foot while doing so for a brief period.
But that's a whole lot better than being shot in the head.
IP addresses are assigned by geographical location. You can go to a site like whatismyipaddress.com then go to https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo for specific information on a target IP address.
The way I understand this regulation, if you do any work, including mounting a scope, reloading to increase accuracy, changing the barrel, building AR rifles, using a 3d printer to build a lower, you fall in this regulation. This is the direction I think these unelected bureaucratic pukes are taking this law. I'm hoping a republican president, along with a republican led congress can put a stop to this nonsense.
I suspect that this "change" in interpretation of the Code of Federal Regulations, will be subject of court battles, and injunctions with the likely hood that the SCOTUS will decide the issue some time in the future. It may be that the "fee" is simply rescinded or changed to accommodate smaller shops.
I think that the application of an onerous fee is tantamount to a restriction or prohibition which, when applied against a Constitutional Right is usually seen as illegal.
Harrumph, Harrumph! I didn't get a Harrumph outta that guy!
Liberals think it is onerous to expect a person to show photo ID when voting, but have no problem charging onerous fees to gunsmiths.
Hmmm...
Liberal courts will likely believe the same way.
THis law has been on the books for a long time. No one like us was aware of it until now, and the State Department did not use it this way until now. It is up to US to bring it to the attention of the legislature NOW!
Think I'm just going to sell off all my guns and ammo and reloading stuff, then take up crochet. Who's with me?
Will you start a new website and forum when you do? You might devote some space to those who like to spin their own yarn and make their own hooks and needles.
Heck, who knows, maybe some die-hards will even raise their own sheep and yaks for the wool.
Do yaks produce wool?
MrFurious, I hear you but then we have the mallet to worry bout.
That could be dangerous too. Please save me from myself America?
HalfTrack