Try working up new loads. You may be able to increase the powder charges over what was previously your max. If the nitride reduces friction and pressures, you may just need to push the pressures back up a little to regain the velocity.
Andrew
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Try working up new loads. You may be able to increase the powder charges over what was previously your max. If the nitride reduces friction and pressures, you may just need to push the pressures back up a little to regain the velocity.
Andrew
Ring31, what was your metal prep process prior to nitriding with H&M? Did you bead blast? I'm digging the flatness of the finish.
Kevin
A drop in pressure as Andrew indicated would require more powder like back in the day when many of us used various lubricity products on our bullets.
I haven't seen a drop in velocity in 9 barrels so would be curious to see what the bore pins out at.
We are all learning about the various Nitriding properties and vendors so the more information that is put out there the more we all benefit.
Currently I am leaving a Nitrided stainless barrel on a untreated stainless action with stainless barrel nut in a well padded canvas case. The past 3 months it has spent weeks in my 4 X 4 Van then into the house and back out into the van. The nut has spots of surface rust. Nothing else yet. I did hunt a couple days in the rain and nothing has affected the gun yet.
I am now at 900 rounds on my 6.5 WSM shooting 130gr Accubonds at over 3000fps from my 19"Striker barrel and the accuracy is still amazing.
Neal
When you say bolt, do you mean the whole bolt to include all baffles and bolthead minus the springs? Just wondering how far you've taken to the bolt to.Quote:
Originally Posted by 358Hammer
Thanks,
Kevin
Kevin
I have done nothing on the bolt and only used the bearing and perch after market setup at the back of the bolt. To
Bolthead, baffle,bolt body, handle and bolt assembly retaining nut at the rear of the bolt, all being nitrided.
To date after 5 months of riding in my van and heating up nearly every day when the van is driven I have yet to have anything Nitided rust. In my salt water and very humid climate at times, regular stainless steel has surface rust that must be dealt with regularly.
Neal
So you will be nitriding everything? Is that what I glean from your second paragraph? Where are you sending your stuff in to be nitrided these days?
Actually my go to hunters are Nitrided and done.
I have everything done that I will ever Nitride! Nitriding stainless pretty much assures I will never wear out the item nor will it ever corrode in any way.
I am a bit concerned however where the cost has been going for the very simple Nitriding process. When I originally made the first post on Nitriding some years back I could have a very complete ready to shoot without issue finished product for $40.(barrel)-$80. barreled Action) with a .003-.004 Nitride penetration. Now others have started handling the process (middle man) with much more financial burden and some are treating at a lessor heat and a .001-.002 penetration using other venders.
I like the added bullet speed and the wear charactoristics particularly with high volume shooters. Highly recommend the process and to date have found NO down side.
Neal
So who are you now using for your nitriding needs? How much do they want to do a whole weapon? How much prep and cleanup is there to do?
Kevin
Gents,
I am new to the site here, and have been doing WAY too much reading :)
Anyways, I am a precision toolmaker, and have TONS of experience with nitriding. I have a few questions about the nitriding you guys are having done on your barrels. Often what I see with nitriding is that it actually accumulates a "film" on the surface of your part. Typically causes a growth of .0002 per side (would be .0004 on a diameter). I wondering if this has an effect of velocities? Also, with the heating required to apply the nitriding, you typically see some warpage in the part. I would think in a long hollow piece like a gun barrel, you should see a fair bit of warpage (stress relief). Can anybody verify this for me?
Thinking the a different (but expensive) option would be Ion nitriding (which is gas vapour at high heat), or something called Alcrona coating (this stuff is upward of 100 HrC, and has a friction co-effiecient lower than teflon, and is less prone to chipping from heat cycling).
Anyone have some thoughts on this?
Best Regards,
Stu
I wonder if too little friction could be causing loss of velocity. A previous post mentions the Alcrona process produces a surface with less friction than Teflon. Could too little friction cause the bullet the start moving before enough pressure has built up for a complete burn to full velocity?
I recall reading that moly coated (for less friction) bullets require extra powder for this reason. I suspect a friction reducing treatment could have a similar effect.
Stu, welcome aboard!
I am hoping several will answer your questions. Should be interesting!
Ferritic nitrocarburizing
Not to be confused with Carbonitriding.
Ferritic nitrocarburizing is a range of case hardening processes that diffuse nitrogen and carbon into ferrous metals at sub-critical temperatures. The processing temperature ranges from 525 °C (977 °F) to 625 °C (1,157 °F), but usually occurs at 565 °C (1,049 °F). At this temperature steels and other ferrous alloys are still in a ferritic phase, which is advantageous compared to other case hardening processes that occur in the austentic phase.[1] There are four main classes of ferritic nitrocarburizing: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, and fluidized-bed.[2]
The process is used to improve three main surface integrity aspects:
scuffing resistance
fatigue properties
corrosion resistance
It has the added advantage of inducing little shape distortion during the hardening process. This is because of the low processing temperature, which reduces thermal shocks and avoids phase transitions in steel.[3] ( Wikipedia) I did have to re-bed a stock that had been bedded prior to Nitriding as typically actions are not stress relieved and this one would bolt up it was still snug in the wrong places. I intenionally did the afore mentioned so that I could readily check for metal movement.
In a statement regarding warp I have to say None observed I will say that none stress relieved metal prior to heat or stress relieving will cause a metal movement. Warp- well all nine barrels shoot extremely well so warp implies something bad and I have nothing but praise for the process..
The last company to send in my barrels for the process was Benchmark barrels.
Neal
???
What material specifically is being used for the match grade barrels? I know you can get stainless, but what grade of stainless, what exact steel?
Just trying to understand how more stress relief is not being seen. Even in a pre stress relieved piece, at those temperatures (its hot enough to move stuff) you will see permanent geometric changes. Think about what your barrel does when shooting a lot with out cool off time.
It would be REALLY interesting to put a new barrel on a test bed between centres and mark runout before and after nitride. The best I would think would be Ion, I dont think id go salt bath myself....
Does anybody have an opinion on nitride as a friction reducer? It reducing friction good or bad? Less friction means less heat and less wear, but is there something ballistically the requires friction, like proper bite in the lands?
Just thinking...
Stu
Rifling engagement would be more of a swaged mechanical fit not frictional, it distorts the softer copper whereas a patched ball in a muzzle loader would rely more on friction from the patch to the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
Same thing no?
It is different. Think of it as your hand in a glove trying to hold a round pipe. That would be like a round ball in a patch in a muzzle loader barrel, it all relies on friction between the patch and ball with the patch filling the grooves and protecting the ball from the lands. The bullet and rifling would be like a bolt and nut. Think of a tight fitting nut with no lube on it then put oil on the threads and try to spin the nut again. Much easier. In a barrel you need to increase power to get pressure back to get speed back up to where it was without the Nitride. Moly, as stated earlier, does the same thing without the added wear protection due to harder metal. It is a matter of are you willing to spend more on powder in the life of the barrel for longer barrel life, corrosion resistance, reduced friction induced heat, greater resistance to throat erosion and heat checking and i am sure i am leaving some things out.Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
Thanks earl, thats exactly what I was looking for there...
So if your already at max case load before nitride, youll actually see a performance drop due to the nitride, from what ive gathered?
Thanks
Stu
Yes, but you can regain the performance by bringing the pressures back up. Since the reduced friction also reduces the pressures, you can work up new loads and increase the charge weights. So, you can operate at the same pressures, it just takes more powder to reach those pressures in the treated barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
Andrew
Or you can go to a slightly faster burn rate powder. What it all amounts to is wear resistance is greater so you get more barrel life. Take the 308win. Average target life is 2500-3500 rounds (some barrels last longer). Nitriding the barrel will increase the life maybe even double it. Compare a new barrel (350-500 dollars) to having your barrel nitrided (100 bucks) and you can see the savings adding up. I haven't tried to run the numbers but just saying it takes a full 8 pound keg of powder during the life of the barrel to get pressures back up it would be like getting two barrels for 200 bucks more than the first barrel. You have the barrel life of two barrels for the price of 1 1/2 barrels which means more shooting with the same barrel and less load testing needed so more true competition rounds before needing to change barrels and start all over again. With a hunting barrel you will never have to replace it unless it is a dogtown barrel and it is really abused.Quote:
Originally Posted by yorketransport
Added after thought.
It was mentioned that the heat might stress relive the barrel even more than it was relived at the factory causing some warp-age. As long as the crown is good any slight warp-age should not cause a problem with point of impact. Point of aim might be a problem due to warp-age though. A warped barrel may shoot 10 foot to the left for example but if the crown is good it should be consistent. You would just need enough adjustment in your sights to get POA and POI together. This would be an extreme example of course as it would be about 114.6 moa. Most barrels warp-age would never be noticed due to change incurred when taking the barrel off and putting it back in the receiver might be 0-2 moa.
A barrel not properly stress relived will walk that much and sometimes more just from heat of being fired.
I hope everyone understands that my talking parrot told me what to type and being Christmas Eve i was obliged to do what was asked of me.
Merry Christmas All
LOL
Thanks Earl, and Merry Christmas to all :)
we use mmi-trutech out of arkansas to do a meloite coating its not cheap but quality is awesome
this is how i sent mine in..Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
http://i.minus.com/jcOQu2eNr.JPG
i lapped everything before they went in...
Thank you!
Kevin
I hear those stocks are heavy. Is that right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironheadmike81
Got off the phone with Chris from Benchmark today. It costs $160 to do a complete action, and that includes sandblasting and cleanup as well. Not a bad deal considering what you're getting!
Kevin
So what's the general consensus when it comes to breaking in the barrel prior to sending it off to be nitrided? I think I've seen it go both ways so far.
Kevin
Im really really tempted to send in my first action to get done. I know bobby from freedom gunworks had quoted me before at $100 for the action and $25 for the bolt. I wouldnt be surprised if that went up by now.
Does anyone have the price for H&M to do a complete action or just the barrel? I may just do an action for now and do the barrel at a later date.
Brian
H&M will do the barrel, bolt, bolt handle, action and even the trigger if you want for 200, call shade up and talk with him, tell him Russ sent you..
I think im gonna hold off on the barrel for now but i do want the complete action done. Do u have a contact number or is any number on their website ok to contact shade at?
Brian
just call the main # and ask for him... il be taking 5 or 6 guns in, in a few weeks to get done, including a entire LRPV in Tan..
Tan? I thought the only color was a blackish blue depending on if its polished or left a normal matte?.
Whats the typical turn around time?
Brian
a few days to a week on turn aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by airaddict
https://sites.google.com/site/freeba...lonite-and-qpq
If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this..
"Tan" Nitide.. same corrosion resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard.
Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 50's
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9950/mptan.jpg
1 of a kind.... just had a rifle "tan" nitrided..
only 1 company does this, and they have done pistols in the past, this was the 1st full rifle they have done, they are the OEM nitrider/melonite for S&W, Spikes, KRISS, Robinson and a few others...
"Tan" Nitide.. can ONLY be done on SS, same corrosion resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard.Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 50's
http://i.minus.com/jbb551YZilmaOi.JPG
http://i.minus.com/jjsnV2SCWHXQ9.JPG
http://i.minus.com/joaHJ8z47rsrv.JPG
my review of the Black nitrided guns i did in the past is here
https://sites.google.com/site/freeba...lonite-and-qpq
http://i.minus.com/jAWYKOHOV5gL1.JPG
more pics here
https://min.us/mdyTh2V#35
This from a barrel manufacturer: Nitriding will not help with throat erosion. Now the rifling in the barrel will last longer but here is the rub....that doesn't matter as after nitriding the rifling and throat are at 70 Rockwell and your reamer won't do that....ever, so you can't re-chamber a nitrided barrel; nor can you "sink" the reamer in and "freshen the chamber". There is no valid reason to do this to the interior of the barrel. Actually you are shooting yourself in the foot. And having a "fresh" barrel nitrided will extend the break-in period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
I will have my action and bolt and, most certainly, the outside of my barrel done. Money very well spent there.
Please don't get all up in my face over this as it is what a qualified source told me. If you disagree, by all means, please share the issues with me and everybody.
John
tests disagree with that..Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jonzmith
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barre...0%20rounds.htm
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barre...arrel%2022.htm
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barre...20test/SBs.htm
If you wanna shoot yourself in the foot ask a "barrel manufacturer" to recommend a treatment that will prolong barrel life. Honestly do you think anyone is going to tell you to do something that will hurt their sales? You really need to consider the source and get some facts. He may really believe what he is saying but is that because he hasn't looked, hasn't tested and just doesn't want to know? Shouldn't be so hard to determine if this does or does not work. So far all you have is a few facts about what the treatment does to the metal and that it can't be machined later thrown in with a guess that it doesn't help control throat erosion. Not to mention all the down sides mentioned should not be relevant if barrel life is extended. A lot of testing apparently shows this may help extend barrel life. Opinions are great and some are backed by a lot of experience but there are a lot of these treated barrels in the field and shooters reporting extended life. Before you make a choice and comment to others on the subject get a little more information. I'd love to see some testing that supports the barrel makers opinion if you have any. I've seen enough positive data from multiple sources to not discount the idea based on one source. Can you provide any support of the comments that you have reported? Who is this "qualified" masked man? ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jonzmith
Thank you Ring.
I will add that I am at 2.5 times the barrel life after Nitriding my 6.5 WSM barrels compared to none Nitrided barrel in the same caliber. I have a friend at roughly the same round count with the same caliber and both barrels are begining to show throat erosion. However the average round count on a none nitrided barrel years ago when the world began wildcatting the 6.5 WSM was averaging 400 rounds. I am just under 1000 rounds.
Neal
Throat erosion is caused by flame cutting, this occurs when the barrel is hot.
If you can keep the barrel cool, either by shooting at a slower pace or actively cooling it you should not see erosion.
Ring,
I'll add my thanks to mike's. Those are good links you posted. Your response was exactly what I wanted and obviously the forum benefited from your input. As I said :If you disagree, by all means, please share the issues with me and everybody."
Thank you,
John
Rino,
Perhaps not knowing me better, you might have thought I was being "coy" when I referred to a barrel maker as my source. I wasn't. I repeated what he told me accurately as far as I know but he made those statements in the privacy of a personal communication and till he gives me his permission to quote him in public his comments will be off the books. That's just plain ethical behavior and personal consideration. I will get back to him and see if I missed something, get his permission, and then I will re post on the subject to satisfy only you. No one else became accusatory and others just provided the informative contradicting info for which I asked. I must not be the only shooting enthusiast that has gotten what appears to be information that is at odds with the common wisdom.
FYI and hopefully to shatter your seeming abject lack of faith in barrel manufacturer's integrity in general: I was asking the mfr. to nitride my new $450 barrel. He assured me they offered that service, quoted a price and a delivery time for my barrel. The delay was less than two weeks and not an issue. He also knew that it was probable I would ream the lands to adjust my free-bore at a later date. He also obviously knew that I was having a 6mm BR Norma chambered and that that particular round is not a barrel burner and i could expect a 4 or 5 thousand round life span( I am told). Who would want to stretch that to 8? I'll be dead and gone long before the event.
Adding to my confusion, I know a shooter and smith that is familiar to this forum that has 9 barrels made by this Mfr. I make that out to be $3,600 invested and that doesn't include shipping. Given this man's success and that he can purchase anything out there, barrel wise, he must have faith in the Mfr. Also he doesn't have all his barrels nitrided but I haven't inquired why some aren't. What I did conclude was that I certainly didn't have "all" the information. I didn't think that I was coming across anything but humble in this. I am a virtuous man and it is my humility of which I am most proud, as virtues go. Get it? ??? :o ::) :D
Thank you for sharing all that Rino,
John
ahhhh.... all i said was "tests disagree with that.." and posted said tests... not to mention all the big name mfg's that have run there own long term tests, like S&W, SIG, LWRC.....
i didnt make any commenents about you or what u said..
is nitriding a barrel that allready has a good life cartrige needed?... nope...
but nitrading does more then just that...
just compare facts, not opinions...
+
increase in bbl life
increase in hardness
increase in lubrisaty
increase in corosion resistance
-
u can rechamber or set back the chamber
like any other finish, if not done by people that know what they are doing, it can be bad
cost is 50 to 200$
Not disrespecting anyone with this analogy but find it representative.
I grew up on a farm/ranch and driving cows and horses. If one got the first cow or horse into the water the next animals until the entire herd would follow.
40 years of smithing and wildcatting gave me a education on how other people do whatever it is they do. Thousands of people for decades have AI'ed cartridges because in some cases there is a noticable increase in speed and one can use factory ammo if available. It was my experience more times than not that there wasn't enough velocity increase for the expense of the rechamber.
I never liked the look of the 3006AI or 35Whelan AI long neck. Some 20 years after I started I learned that Rocky Gibbs did not like P.O.'s 40 degree shoulder because in some of the calibers internal pressures built up before the desired velocities were acheive. I went the Gibbs route 20 years ago and a 35 degree should except in the minicoop series they have a 30 degree shoulder.
Just because all these people are doing it doesn't make it the right way.
On the first 4 Benchmark barrels I found NO fouling of any kind in the barrels. SO I presumed since there wasn't any, I had the next 5 barrels
Nitrided prior to me ever touching it. One of those barrels I purchased from a Vender without ever seeing the barrel and it was a Savage takeoff in 300RUM so according to the Vender only factory shot was put through the barrel. When I received this cut down and braked barrel the first 3 shot group was .1 and every 3 shot group thereafter was in the .1-.2 area without exception.
SInce I am a machinist and have been in this industry for 40 years I am sure I qualify as somewhat knowledgable person. Everyone has an opinion about something. Just like the times people told me I could or could not or should not do something because there wasn't a presedence. I wouldn't be shooting a 458 Lott, 510 Rogue or a 338 Edge out of a handgun platform. But after building the 510 Rogue there was a very large thread with the title,( when is big too big) Then I put the Edge in a Striker and other back yard opinion literally came out of the wood work stating the Savage action could not safely handle the pressure. That I needed to purchase a $1200. action build to handle the big cartridge. The following year Savage released the 338 Lapua which has an even larger diameter case than the Edge and that pretty much made the nay- sayers quit talking.
Because of Nitriding I quit smoking bullets into puffs of lead at 4800fps in a 3 groove 224 minicoop (NO Breakin) and added another 400fps to the cartridge/barrel combination. I built a 6.5 WSM improved that has awesome accuracy after a 1000+ rounds down the tube.
Though I have never purchased one of these barrels I do know that for decades people purchased barrels from 2 or 3 barrel makers and it sometimes took a hundred rounds to break a barrel in. Before the copper quit flaking out of the bore. By all means, these need to be smoothed up before Nitriding.
This is my opinion based on experience to be used as information and NOT for anger
Neal
NOOOOOOO NOOOO,
I misspoke. In my previous post I THANKED YOU FOR A MOST APPROPRIATE RESPONSE. I haven't changed my mind on that...truly. I typed Ringo when I meant to type RINO. I still luv ya Ringo....it is Rino that is still "iffy".
My apologies again,
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ring31
No, I went back and reread my post.....I got it right. I wasn't talking to you Ringo.
Neil,
That last qualifier for nitriding "rough" barrels AFTER break-in is much appreciated. The nitriders I spoke with said that they could do it "after" without problem.
You mentioned two different nitriding processes that you have used...can you clarify the differences in performance. I know I am interested and I think others are also.
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jonzmith
read my full review here...
https://sites.google.com/site/freeba...lonite-and-qpq
Ring,
I hadn't seen any of the videos you provided links for. They are all superb and I thank you for them. I am sold completely on this process. My only reservations have been treating a "new" and unbroken-in barrel and treating one that you expect to re-bore the chamber or set back the lands. I still think it is safer to wait to do both but apparently...that's just me. Neil, with the unimpeachable results he gets from his guns is the hands down horses mouth "source".
Thanks again Ring...sincerely
John
if u plan on doing it, do it in the fist 60 to 100 rounds down the tube... u "shouldn't " do it to a old barrel... here is Y..
a new match grade barrel that is lapped and has no need to be broke in, but the throat will need broke in from the chamber cut, this can be fixed in the 1st 60 shots.
if u nitride this before the throat is broke in, it will never break in, BUT, that dont mean it still wont shoot great.
do it to a old gun, or a gun with 100+ down it, and u "can" make that barrel less accurate... how?.. well if you have fired it enough to start to induce fire cracking in the bore, the heat of the nitrideding process's "can" cause that to get worse.
also, NEVER nitride a chrome bore... unless u like a 4moa gun...