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I don't have an end goal except small groups at 100 yards. I don't shoot competition, but I am working my way towards shooting at 1000 yards. I'm at 500 and that was surprisingly easy to accomplish. I'm thinking I need to tighten up my reloading technique as the range increases.
Right now, I can tell the neck tension in my loads is not consistent just by the way the bullet seats. The force required is inconsistent, so I'm trying to address that issue. I can shoot six five-shot groups and get three of them into 1/2" and three with flyers in them. At first, I thought it was probably my shooting, but it could also be my loads.
I figure I'll try different things until I get it right or get tired of fiddling with it.
So lets assume you wanted to switch from sizing the case neck with an expander ball in a full length sizing die, to using an expander in a separate step so you could adjust neck size for different neck tensions. Your options are to buy a full set of 11 expanders for $174 or the individual expanders for $21.50 each. I'm thinking that most of those sizes, included in the set, aren't going to be used as they cover a pretty wide range of sizes. The question is, which size expander do you start with? I don't have a cylinder gauge small enough to measure the case neck I'm getting from my Lee full length sizing die, but the expander ball measures .262". That seems like the logical place to start -- and maybe buy the size .001 above and below that expander. They also sell sizes expanders .0005 above and below .262 so you can get half sizes. Any opinions?
One thing you should keep in mind. How much case tension isn't really the issue. It is how consistent is the case tension.
The idea behind custom necks and such is to reduce the amount of sizing needed to reload. The reason for that is to work the brass less, introducing less stresses in the brass (and prolonging case neck life). Unless you change to a custom chamber you are kinda stuck with how much the case will expand during firing. If you want a case to match your chamber you can go to Forstner or Hornady and get custom dies made to match your fired brass.
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Forstner Custom Neck Honing (Optional)
Diamond stoning process enlarges the inside dia. to prevent over-sizing due to thick neck walls. Useful for brands of brass cases with thicker neck walls or when you do not intend to outside neck turn case necks that have thickened after repeated firings. Please note:
1. No more than .008″ stock removal from your existing die neck diameter is possible.
2. Honing is done in increments of one half thousandth of an inch (.0005″), meaning that your specified inside diameter must be either .XXX0″ or .XXX5″.
Custom machining cost (below) applie,
And from the accurate shooter folks:
1. Purchase a Forster full-length sizing die. Measure a loaded round with a bullet seated, and note the outside neck diameter. Then send your die to Forster and for $10 (plus shipping) Forster will hone the neck to the dimension you specify. For bolt guns, we suggest .002" under the neck diameter of a loaded round. For gas guns, go .003" under. Total cost is about $45.00, including the die.
2. Hornady can make you a custom full-length sizing die for about $75.00 plus shipping. Just send them a few fired cases and a reamer print (if you have it). They can create a die that gives you ideal neck tension, as well as just the right amount of sizing at the shoulder and web. Call Hornady and ask for Lonnie Hummel. Scott Parker recently had a die like this made and he reports: "Average runout for 65 rounds was .0004". All 65 rounds showed less than .001" runout."
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Another path would be to use bushing dies. FL or neck size only. Then you can buy the die and a neck bushing of your choice.
The next step in all this would be if you decide to neck turn all of your brass. That is something that used to be common due to inconsistencies in factory brass. These days a lot of factory brass is pretty good. And you can always get Lapua or Norma if you want better quality.
And don't forget the annealing part. If you choose to go that route then you need to anneal each one equally.
I decap in a separate step with the LEE Universal decapping die. This gives Me a feel for the condition of the primer pockets. I full length size and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die. I neck size with the LEE Collet Die. This aligns the inside of the neck with the center or the case. Minimal runout. It makes the inside neck smooth and pushes irregularities to the outside. I set neck tension with a mandrel. Sinclair Expander Die from Brownells $39.99, stainless steel mandrels $9.99 ea.
Now, David Tubb (knowledgeable, look Him up) has stated “if You load into the lands, neck tension is irrelevant”??? That’s what He said.
Many precision shooters load into the lands.
But again, none of this matters unless a specific goal is desired. Like winning a match.
“acceptable accuracy” can be achieved with a Model 94 Winchester shooting factory ammo. JUST MY OPINION
Since I had a few cratered primers, I sent the bolt to Desh to work on the firing pin and install the bolt lift modification. This is what the bolt, firing pin and primers look like after the bolt work. I don't see a lot of difference, but the primers aren't cratered at the max load like they were before. I still have not achieved the accuracy or consistency with StaBall 6.5 that I did with the RL-16. Groups are + or - one inch and I don't have any 1/2 inch or smaller groups. I'm thinking I need to start adjusting the CBTO to see if that will tighten up the groups.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0473-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0472-L.jpg
I loaded 10 rounds each with a couple different loads, 42.1 gr of StaBall 6.5 and 42.7 gr of StaBall 6.5 and did not crimp the cases as I have been.
For the 42.1 load, the ES was 20 FPS and SD was 8 FPS. Both five round groups were on the order of 1 1/8". It wasn't a case of a flyer, the holes were just not that close to each other. Velocity averaged 2641 FPS over the ten rounds. Not crimping seems to really tighten up the ES and SD.
For the 42.7 load, the ES was 42 FPS and SD 14. Two of the ten rounds were considerably slower than the other eight and again it could have been my powder loading. The groups were on the order of 1" with an average velocity of 2648.
Both loads were a little hotter than I settled on for Alliant RL-16 which was just over 2600 FPS and I think I got better groups with a little less powder.
I'm still mulling over how setting neck tension works and which one I would like to try. The expander mandrel in my Lee sizing die is .262", given the diameter of a 6.5 mm bullet is .264", I have .001 or .002 of tension depending on springback. I wasn't familiar with neck bushing dies so I did a little reading about them. As I understand it, you are setting neck tension by measuring the outside of the case. That seems like a roundabout way to go about it doesn't it?
I have not read this whole thing so this may have been said earlier.....
It may seem like a roundabout way to go about it- but they are doing it for a reason.
On your Lee die it has to be able to size brass with a huge variety in brass thickness on the neck. So even if you are running brass with a thin neck it needs to size it down smaller than the expander mandrel- so that it sets the proper tension when you pull it back through. Now when you have thick brass it is still sizing the outside down to the same dimension- but the inside is way smaller than it needs to be- and the expander will take it back to the correct spec as it passes back. This is working the brass more than a bushing die does- and brass gets hard as it gets worked.
Still not seeing it. The expander ball doesn't pass through the neck when the case is in fully inserted into the sizing die right? So you are not materially changing the thickness of the neck brass because there is only pressure on it from one direction at a time. You get pressure from the outside of the case when the case is fully inserted into the die and pressure from the inside as the expander ball is removed when the case is withdrawn rom the die. Don't you end up with a thicker outside case neck measurement if you start out with thick brass, and smaller outside case neck measurement with thinner brass? The inside measurement in both instances is the thickness of the expander ball minus spring-back right? How does changing the neck bushing alter tension if you pull the expander ball through the case after sizing the outside of the neck?
On Edit: So the bushings allow you to adjust for thicker and thinner brass, but have no affect on the inside diameter of the neck?
Here is a visual example of what I'm talking about when I say I'm getting inconsistent tension. I can feel that some bullets take noticeably more pressure to seat than others. The brass in the video has been annealed, lubed, full length sized and then tumbled. The videos were taken as I am trimming the brass to length using a Lee Case Conditioning tool for 6.5 CM, which gives me consistent 1.912" case length. The mandrel, which sets the trim length, measures .259" in diameter. It slides into 80% of the cases like there is no friction between the mandrel and the case. Most of the rest slide in fairly easily, but you can tell they are a tighter fit, and there will be one or two percent of the cases that take some force to insert the mandrel. The expander ball on my Lee Full Length Sizing Die is .262. I don't have a micrometer capable of measuring the inside diameter of the brass, that may be my next tool purchase.
The question is how do I fix it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJFxo1XW5M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQlZ5WS8TFc
What You are seeing is different neck wall thickness, and perhaps inconsistent spring back, on no turn necks. The solution to what You want at this point in Your shooting experience is the LEE Collet die. Fire Your cases, full length size them just enough to easily fit in Your chamber, without the expander mandrel installed in the Die. Neck size with the collet die. This will align the center of the neck with the center of the case, and size the inside of the neck with about .003” neck tension. Since You have a no turn stock chamber, who cares what the outside of the neck is. After that, if You want less neck tension, then go to the mandrels mentioned previously.
Do this, and it will solve what worries You so at this point in time. But, then there will be the next thing.
The only way I would use a Bushing Die, is if I were turning necks, making the neck wall thickness consistent, and concentric. I don’t want to push the inconsistencies to the inside, causing bullet run out. And, before I turn necks on My 6mmBRA, I run them through the LEE Collet die to center up the necks and push the bad stuff to the outside, where it is turned off.
Dave is right. Desh shortened the bolt face, as part of the process, but didn’t set the pin pertrusion to .035”. That’s Your job. Put a fired case in Your chamber and pull the trigger. Send us a picture of the primer without the blowback.
Not using the expanding mandrel in the FL size die creates a small issue when using the Lee collet die. The FL die makes the case neck smaller than the mandrel in the collet die so it takes a bit of force to push the case up into the die. Not a huge deal, but, it makes it feel different.
FWIW, many of the precision shooters consider a .002" neck 'tension' to be the std. Yes, you can use more or less if you want. The point is to make it consistent.
As a reference case, I use an off the shelf Forster FL size die for my 6BR. Seat with a Redding competition die. No other case prep. It shoots consistent 1/2MOA groups (with the proper bullets and load). It will go well over 1MOA with a bad load. I don't anneal the cases, rarely even clean them and I don't clean the primer pockets. I do wipe the carbon off the outside of the case neck, after sizing.
You should be able to get decent groups without tweaking the neck tension. Once you get down to the 1/2MOA range then consider tweaking the 'fine points'.
I have shot sub MOA groups, even sub 1/2" groups with my hand loads. When that happens, the SD and ES are usually quite low for the group and when I shoot over 1" groups the SD and ES tends to be much larger. I'm looking for more consistency in my loads and by default, my process. I figure if I can tell a bullet is much easier, or harder, to seat, then I have a situation that probably leads to higher SD and/or ES.
On Edit: Is it normally easier to lever the case into the Lee Collet die than the Full Length Sizing die?
No. Not a new primer. When a round is fired, the explosion inside the case pushes everything back against the bolt face, flattening out the primer. The only way to get a true picture of Your firing pin strike is to put that fired case, with the expended primer, back in the chamber, pull the trigger, and see what it looks like without the blowback. With the firing pin protrusion set at .035”, the pin will bottom out on the fired primer at about .025”. As Dave said, Your pin appears to protrude about .070”, about .035” too much. Not unusual when a bolt head comes back from being bushed.
Yes, a full length die with the expander removed will size the neck. As I said in post 155, I size the the case and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die, which does not size the neck. If the sizing expander is left in, it expands the neck on the way out, so IMO, no additional brass working occurs.
If you say so… :confused: I’m comparing the pictures you posted of your bolt before & after, and the FP doesn’t look any shorter to me.
Before:
https://i.ibb.co/TtbZFNc/A1188-AD3-C...BB621-ABB3.jpg
After:
https://i.ibb.co/MVtCvrS/D42-E72-F7-...EE75-FD9-F.jpg
I don’t see a bit of difference in protrusion. I’m not sure why there is still contention. It’s too long..Period! It’s not a debatable point is all. So insisting it was shortened & therefore good, is folly.
There's no contention Dave. I said in my initial post that I didn't see any difference. And I didn't say it was different in my first reply to you when you pointed out it was still too long, just that that was the way it came back. I thought Desh was going to shorten it and I guess he didn't.
Yes, the ES of a group is importan, probably the most important. The SD just does not mean much until you have a lot more data points. I have had quite a few 'blown' groups with low SD's.
If you just use the Lee Collet die to neck size it is very easy for the case to enter the die. It does take a bit of force at the end of the stroke to cause the collet to close on the neck.
If you FL size first without the expander button, it takes a bit of force to expand the case neck with the collet die. It is about the same amount of force as my Lee FL size die requires.
Another question, how consistent is the length of the brass after it is fired in your gun? This is the brass from the last 60 rounds I shot from my rifle. The rows, from back to front, measured 1.532", 1.533", 1.534", and the single casing in front measured 1.535" CBTO. None of it measured shorter than 1.531". I set the sizing die to bump the shoulder to 1.532" figuring the shorter cases would fit the chamber at that length. People talk like each piece of brass is exactly the same length after its fired, but that's not my case or is the brass falling within .004" essentially the same length?
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0484-L.jpg
Personally I would bump the shoulder more-- the most you could be sizing would be .003 and many of them wouldn't be getting any shoulder bump....
As far as the .004 difference- how accurate are you at measuring? If you measure the same piece of brass (without looking at the readout until you are done) 5 or 10 times do you get the exact same reading? I never did with the Hornady comparators....
The .004 difference is not causing bad groups--
Normally, I'd suspect me more than the Hornady Comparator, but I am pretty good with calipers, micrometers etc as I've got quite a bit of experience rebuilding engines.
I just have questions about reloading and what happens to brass when you fire a gun. My Lapua brass measured anywhere from 1.529 to 1.531 when it was new. I swear it measured 1.536 to 1.538 after the first time it was fired. My Lee case trim gauge trims the brass to 1.912 so this brass has been shoulder bumped and trimmed to that length twice now.
On edit: I resized the new brass before I loaded it, but I didn't measure it after sizing so I don't know if it went straight from 1.529 to 1.5737 on firing or if it ended up somewhere in the middle after sizing. I used the standard setup with a FL sizing die which should have sized it to SAAMI specs.
It's been a little cool so I haven't been out to the range this week. I decided to see if I could measure the protrusion of the firing pin and this is what I found. From the end of the bolt to the top of the firing pin is .0475". I kept that measurement and zeroed the gauge and measured the distance to the bolt face. That measurement was .059". Then I closed the caliper, zeroed the gauge, and measured the distance from the end of the bolt to the bolt face. That measurement was .1065 which is close enough to confirm my first two measurements were essentially correct. I'm not sure how accurate my caliper is, but its close enough for this exercise. The protrusion is .059". Is that in spec?
Measurement to the top of the firing pin.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0518-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0519-L.jpg
Measurement to the bolt face with after zeroing the gauge.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0520-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0521-L.jpg
Measurement from the front of the bolt to the bolt face.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0524-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0525-L.jpg
Here's the picture you asked for.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0527-L.jpg
What the primer looks like after firing, but before putting the fired case in the chamber and firing it again.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0529-L.jpg
Side by side comparison.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0530-L.jpg
I think I got all I can get out of the StaBall 6.5 in my rifle. I tried different loads, different CBTO lengths and except for the one below, none of them seemed to work very well, most were wider than 1", some much wider. Shorter lengths did seem to work better than longer.
This is 42.5 gr. of StaBall 6.5 at 2.163" CBTO. I only had 5 rounds of this load and shot the three at the bottom, then adjusted the scope up two clicks and shot the last two. Move those two down 1/2" and its a pretty good group. I'll try some more of this load.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0533-L.jpg
42.5 grains of StaBall gives me around 2615 FPS average over 20 shots. This group of 8 gave pretty consistent speeds and would be even better without nr. 6. Coincidently, this is pretty close to my best load of RL-16, which performed well. That might be the speed this gun likes.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/...IMG_0532-L.png
.059" will work, but better to have it ~35 thou. I think you could turn the pin cap 2 notches to get in that 25-35 thou range.
These are super cheap and great for measuring firing pins:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks for the pictures. Now You can see what Your true firing pin fall is, minus the explosion and blow back. With .059” firing pin protrusion, we would expect no less. Perhaps the Axis, new firing pin experts, can explain the solution to excessive fp protrusion on those platforms, or if it is in fact a problem.
IMO, at this point in time, You rifle, and platform, and loads, exceed expectations. Assuming that red dot on Your Target is 1”.
Congratulations
This is a touch off topic but for everyone taking in all of the information being tossed out on firing pin protrusion, I want to remind people that when you are setting up your firing pin, making measurements and al,l it is paramount that you consider the cocking piece and pin adjustment. This is a critical step in my opinion, when trying to troubleshoot light primer strikes and even accuracy issues. Setting the the correct length of travel starts at the cocking piece pin. That travel is impacted by the location of the firing pin stop and protrusion of the firing pin tip.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason many of us point out that .035" being the best place to be was initially what Fred Moreo from Sharp Shooter Supply guided us to understand. (Each position of the firing pin stop, 4 total per revolution, is equal to .009" Therefore everyone will find a protrusion between .035" and .044" with the older style firing pin assembly) Taking the wisdom that as delivered to us by not only a top Savage Gunsmith but also a benchrest shooter is something that should not be overlooked. I believe Freds knowledge and understanding of consistent firing pin impact to achieve consistent primer ignition was a part of his path to make Savage rifles shoot............................................. .................................................. ...........................................Back to firing pin protrusion and its affect on firing pin travel. Lets start at the difference between setting protrusion and the the actual protrusion when the trigger is pulled with a primered case/live round. Chad Dixon of long rifles messaged me a book of information on the topic. in that PM he informed me that a primer can be ignited with as little as .015" maybe less and at maximum the need was more likely to be around .025. Fred has posted something about this but I can't recall the exact numbers but I believe he stated he had spent the time to measure the depth of primer indentation for verification. Why is this important, for 98%(random number) it is not important. But if you have an ignition issue it may come in to play. ........................................So for the sake of conversation, if the firing pin travel is set at the approximate .250" from the shelf of the cocking ramp to .015" from bottoming out at the fired position, likely a little less after the Cocking Piece Pin is handed off to the sear, anything that reduces the length of protrusion affects the distance of the firing pin travel. Therefore if you set your protrusion at say .040" and your firing pin stops at .025" when the anvil is driven into the bottom of the primer pocket and the shoulder of the case is seated in the chamber, you have only lost .015 of travel length. (Shoulder bump is critical for proper clearance and primer ignition.)If your pin is set at .055" protrusion you loose maybe .030' of travel using those numbers. Now you are down to less than .200 travel possibly with manufacturing tolerances. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....These where slightly random thoughts from a older guy with some free time on his hands. I am very grateful to all of the knowledgeable guys that ultimately led me to these conclusions. Much of their dialog drove me to test and measure and inspect things. If you find something I have said to be discombobulated or untrue, I'm sorry. On the bright side I may have been the one to peak your interest enough to test my assertions. And for those of you who could care less...Chive on!
Robin, thank You for post #184. I find it to be True and it is well received by Me. For many of us it is a welcome review. Others should have found much of the information in “SEARCH”.
We still need the low down on how to deal with this Axis FP set up.
IS SAVAGE USING THE AXIS FIRING PIN SET UP ON ITS NEW TARGET ACTIONS ??? :-))
All you said sound good in my ear Robin:(
The new style firing pins aren’t adjustable, no. But you can still set protrusion if it’s too long. Measure for the appropriate amount it needs reduced. File to just shy of that amount. In your case, .059 less .035. So need reduced .024”. File .023” off flat. Put in a micro bevel for proper Radius & finish with sand paper. Round just the face but not past the bevel depth. A great way of getting it perfect is chucking in your drill press if you have one, or a hand drill held in a vice. Then use maybe 400grit sand paper in an arcing motion from bevel edge to bevel edge. Can finish the same action with 1000grit to remove any surface scratches & quick touch of Cold Blue. Sounds like many steps, but it’s not. It’s super easy. Things like this ya just go slow & measure often.
To me it only comes into play when you are having issues, having swapped a bunch of parts together etc... and want to get it right as you put it back together. or maybe you are exhausted trying to get it to shoot .5 rather than .75 and you need to try something fresh. I would reduce the spring power some if I bushed and reduce the firing pin diameter. I was sanding springs to get the rate a little lower on the older assemblies. Another thing that was learned from a renowned Smith. Really helps on the lift and reduces rifle upset on the line.
Earnest, Your first measurement where you check the depth should measure .015 plus deeper. Bolt head depths are very consistent. Just looking at it. It looks like a lot of protrusion though. Changing it will only add to the bolt firing pin travel. If you are happy...so am I.
thanks! The red circle is 1” and I’m happy with the progress so far. I think at this point, I’m looking for more consistent loads rather than more accuracy. I can make and shoot very small groups, but I still have outliers whether from an inconsistent load or lack of shooting accuracy on my part.
Most of that went right over my head. I think you must be speaking about what goes on inside the bolt and how it affects protrusion when there is actually a primer under the pin as opposed to setting it in a bolt our of the gun? I'm not that familiar with the internal workings of the Savage bolt.
Unfortunately, I didn't measure the protrusion before sending the bolt to be worked on so I don't know if it has less protrusion now than it did before. It doesn't look a lot different, but it cratered primers on loads one level below the maximum listed in the Hornady manual and now it doesn't. So, either it is protruding less or simply bushing the pin fixed the issue. I plan to reduce the protrusion some, but don't know if I'll go all the way to .035. I don't have firing issues now and don't want to create one by taking too much off.
Again, I am in complete agreement with Robin. Earnest T, we all struggle with outliers, we call fliers. Even the Hall of Fame competitors. The best just have fewer, and there not as far out of the group. Just like living with a certain group size, we have to decide what we can live with as to fliers. As You already know, accuracy, and more accuracy, is about consistency. Consistency can be achieved by sorting cases, sorting bullets, sorting primers, weighing powder charges to .02 grains, shooting the best bullets money can buy and waiting a year to get them, and on and on. There is no end to stuff You can buy to do all this better, and no cut off on the cost. You want perfect neck tension, get an “IDOD”. And guess what, it still won’t be perfect.
Look at what Bart Sauter said to Erick Cortena in his interview,about fliers. It’s posted over on Accurate Shooter. Bart is a legend in shooting, and used to shoot Savages.
Having the shortest possible protrusion that still reliably ignites primers does more than just theory. As Robin pointed out, it adds to maximum pin fall. (Travel) This is important even when we are only talking some thousandths of an inch! Remember, the total pin travel available is .25”. That is not much to develop its top speed. I want every thousandth I can muster.
So to answer you you Gren, “How necessary is this?”. Well, it’s not really about necessary. It’s about being correct. When everything is correct, there is far less chance of any problem developing. And if one does, it’s far less troublesome to narrow down the cause. Here’s the thing, if you have a rifle with .050” pin protrusion, & it shoots lights out with absolutely no cratering… is it necessary to make the protrusion less? Of course not. But that’s not what is going on here. There is a potential problem. For me, I make certain something like this is taken care of before I ever fire the rifle! Just as I do, (and recommend others), to loosen & remove the the Action screws, separate the barreled Action from Stock/Chassis, give them both a clean out verifying no loose debris whatnot, then reinstall & torque the screws yourself. Also if you get a new or used rifle with scope already mounted. Loosen & re-torque the screws. (I like removing everything & starting fresh.) If a problem develops, it gives you the answers to the first question that will surely be asked. To me, this is part of setting up any rifle before firing. To make everything correct before sending the first round down the pipe.
But then, could just me & my thinking.. I am half retarded from the brain damage I’ve had. LOL!
Y’all should post some pictures of targets that show significant improvements on paper from shortening the protrusion. I’m on the other side of the tracks and taken my Savage just short of a world record with around .060 protrusion and never bushed a bolt.
Shortening the firing pin does nothing for accuracy. The only issue with one being too long is the possibility of piercing the primer. Same with craters on primers.
I went to the range with my latest load of StaBall 6.5 to see how it would do at 500 yards and was quite pleased. I shot two rounds each at 200, 300 and 500 yards -- all were hits and pretty well centered in the target, an 8" steel disk, except the first shot at 500 yards which just clipped the left edge of the target. Tuesday (the weather forecast for Monday is crap), I'm headed over to Gatesville with this load to shoot out to 1200 yards.