http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psgxct8v1y.jpg
500gr FP/XTP
400gr JSP
375gr XPB
350gr XTP
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...pstamzmgrg.jpg
Printable View
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psgxct8v1y.jpg
500gr FP/XTP
400gr JSP
375gr XPB
350gr XTP
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...pstamzmgrg.jpg
That's a lot less like a brick than those we've been shooting. Let us know how the accuracy is with these. I can see a new nose punch being made to emulate this in my swaged bullets.. Jim
That is a beautiful thing, I have told some on lookers at the range, that they were 50 BMGs and no one called me on it, especially after seeing the muzzle blast and the bark that that thing has.LOL
Dean
Guy from work is hooking me up with a jug of IMR3031 @ a price I couldn't believe. So if that materializes... I'll have a chance to see how that works out.
Those are nice but there is nothing like those big gaping holes those XTPs have, there like the grand canyon of hollow points.
Dean
Blitzfike that would be a serious bullet!
If you look close at the jsp you can see why its shape gives it a better bc then either of the Hornady bullets. I really wish the Barnes came in a 400-450gr version!
I think yours can exceed the Barnes if you pull that off!
So far no stellar results with the xpb's. The relation between the 350 xtp and 375 xpb with rl7 appears close velocity wise less 1gr for the xpb. But with a gotcha. Pressure seems to be higher with the xpb. Haven't done a rl7 work up completely yet. Will look for a node between 2250 & 2350 @2367 with 82gr rl7 flattened the crap out of fed215 primers all but backing them out!
TAC is just a tad slow but I went up to 89grs and wasn't impressed with the results avg. 2174 with es 46 sd 19 rem 9 1/2 primers. I will try another 1/2-1gr but the result isn't likely to be worth the effort as pressures coming up here.
For giggles I tried the online Powley computer to get a 3031 load. Had to play with it a little to not get the use a faster powder message.
It does look like the potential to reach 2350 with a 375gr bullet is there @49000 PSI. Just have to wait n see if the xpb will cooperate.
Was out trying a few loads today. Fired a round extracted it. Turned to get the next one as I slide it in out walks a deer. Right up to my target then causally walks behind it stopping briefly to look around. It was an awesome view in 4x cross hairs!!! Filled the view completely. Hope to get that view again in November!
At 79grains of RL7 am just @2284 ES 19 SD 8. Plan is to shoot 78, 78.5, 79, 79.5 figure theres a node in here somewhere.
Definitely on the max end here. The XPB has nearly as much base to canelure as the 500 FP/XTP and more beyond the canelure. Forcing charges to be more like the heavier 500 then the 350 & 400's.
Did see some 270gr powerbelt magnums while in town today picking up some patches and primers.
Really wanted to try em but... just didn't know what to make of that belt business.
That and gun money has to go to essentials while they are available.
While searching for a powder to use with the Barnes bullets. I came to the conslusion that anything that works well in 458wm works well In the 500/375.
Bullet weights available are same same for the most part. Velocities are somewhat simular just slightly lower for the 500/375. Keeping in mind the 458wm has been subjected to 100-150 fps down loading.
Much like the 7rm though I believe for the 458wm it had more to do with old ammo and powder degradation.
Still working on this load am close to calling it good. Want to try a slightly slower powder yet... but haven't as of yet.
3-shots each all lit by rem 9 1/2 primers.
375XPB & 78.5gr RL7
Avg. 2276 ES 7 SD3
375XPB & 79gr RL7
Avg. 2284 ES 19 SD 8
375XPB & 79.5 gr RL7
Avg. 2341 ES 14 SD6
Will try 78 & 78.5 see which shoots best. Velocity doesn't come easy with these bullets. Rather it does but the penalty is pressure. With RL7 2250-2275 FPS is pretty much as good as it gets. Really wanted to see 2350 with single digits but its not going to happen with this powder bullet combo.
Ran the 78 & 78.5 loads. Again with rem 9 1/2 primers.
375gr XPB & 78gr RL7
Avg. 2259 ES 17 SD 7
375gr XPB & 78.5gr RL7
Avg. 2272 ES 10 SD 4
Still on the hot side but I really don't want to go any slower unless they just won't group. Overall @ 100yards these aren't as impressive as the price. Though I'm sure anything hit is going down or coming off.
Starting to think the Swift AF or Speer DeepCurls might be better bang for the buck.
The Lehigh Defense brass bullets might be worth a look. Maybe the brass wouldn't get so crazy much pressure for weight as the copper? Copper seems to start out about 100 or more fps slower then conventionals.
For the fun of it I drilled one of the 375XPB's out and seated a 55gr .224 tipped Nosler bullet inside. Couldn't get if perfect but it was sort of proof of concept for a "controlled expansion higher bc bullet". Looks promising but I won't mess with it anymore without a lathe. My 5/8 drill isn't as concentric as I thought. Weighs 390grs +- and has a lovely orange tip. Something else I didn't know I needed! A mini lathe?
Don't waste your time on a mini lathe. I know a guy...he doesn't have it anymore. I picked up an old south bend 9" for $200 more than a new mini lathe. Can thread, profile, and chamber barrel blanks and have built 2 suppressors so far. Waiting on another stamp for a 3rd.
On another note, thanks for all the testing you have done and sharing with us all.
Nick
Nick sounds like you really went down the rabbit hole . Been reading your posts... maybe someday.
I was thinking small for small jobs like trimming these cases cleanly and precisely. Maybe turning a few brass bullets... adding bands to the barnes to make seating them long and tight easier.
I'm not from a manufacturing background so there is a learning curve involved. That and my wiring hasn't been updated . Anything requiring big amps is out for at least a couple years. Rural life ain't it grand? House was built in the 90's er 1890's..i'm 4th generation. House didn't have electricity until the 1950's. Hasn't been touched since. It's on my bucket list though. No clue if gen5 will keep the place but... would like to leave it better then I get. Real pink elephants do exist!
Figure someday when we collectively have some hard data maybe a pure load topic could be started simular to the hides maybe? Though would have to run it past management. Other options are readily available.
The mini lathe will work for what you are wanting to do. I had the same thoughts and once I started learning how to use it I out grew it very fast, lol. I work on helicopters and grew up working on just about anything, cars, boats, motorcycles etc. I had no machining background either. Kinda the same thing when you have to fix something that is broken that you are unfamiliar with. YOUTUBE is dangerous, lol.
My 9" only has a 1/2 hp motor and runs off a std 110 volt wall plug.
Its pretty cool you live in a family house like that.
I need to get my thumper out soon. Been too long. I have been bitten by the suppressor bug and its bad!
So the biggest issue I have with the XPB's is the length. Being made to shoot out of a revolver. They would be fine in a controlled feed action. But pushing I come out short for firing or long for the mag. Ideal savage action would be a rum with controlled feed.
Can single feed short rounds loading into the claw and they extract fine. This is fine at the bench... but completely useless in the field.
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psrdjrgarn.jpg
The 350 XTP launched at 2490 fps.
The 400 JSP lauched at 2200 fps.
The difference between catastrophic failure and perfect expansion is not so far apart. Choosing velocity for which the bullets designed for is very important.
Can't wait to try the 325gr AF's maybe they will offer more in the velocity catagory and less in the catastrophic failure pit.
Shot the 375gr XPB, RL7 78.5 load with federal 215 M primers. Stll very flat but no piercing or backing out. Probably -.1 or -.2 on the charge would be good to go.
I tried 1 deep seated bullet literally sat in the case. Not sure what to make of it exactly but it was the most accurate depth of the rounds fired. 1" from poa vs 3" @ the canelure and 4" .061 off the rifling. Fluke?
Will revisit the idea of deep seating but it presents some challenges with respect to feeding and headspace.
For today I only wanted to verify if the load was safe for the softer primers. Which it appears to be.
My latest experiments have been with virtually no crimp, fast powder and deep seated bullets. I can maintain head space better with that, and I've given up feeding from the magazine, I single feed each round. The slower powders are too erratic without crimp, depending on which bullet I am using as to how much neck tension I get. I'm going to try some of the RL-7 loads and see what they do for me here. Thanks for the good test info.
Admittedly I wasn't sighted in for the load. But it was a suprise. Agree single feeds best without using a controlled feed action. Otherwise each bullet would require its own brass or adjustment to headspace.
I need to get a more precision trimming method setup for this. Seems like I try to keep at 2.62 and wind up half of the time burning past to 2.61-2.615. tolerance is a bit tigher then that. The sweet spot seems to be .003 or tighter.
Was considering turning the sizer die up enough to leave a slight bump at the base to see if that would add just enough tension to prevent slipping forward to far. Yet still be able to close the bolt.
I saw ammoguide lists 50 b&m long loads with the 375gr xpb. Might have to subscribe to get a peak at what powders were used. Claim max loads from 2360-2450 with them from an 18" 18tw barrel.
My best load pressure wise has been 2270+
Hitting 2450 would yield 5,000 ft/pounds of energy :-) Starting to think 2450fps will be a milestone worthy of achieving.
Another thought on reducing pressures. I use Dacron filler which from several sources has been shown to give higher pressures then the foam insulation or backing. Worth investigating further.
Sent you a PM, what is the main difference in the 50 B&M long and the thumper other than case its made from?
Its for all intents identical. I hadn't been aware of the 50 B&M Long until recently. It isn't one of the B&M commercial cartridges. They seem to have done it simply because it made sense.
Specs: 50 B&M Long
Bullet Diameter:
.500 in.
Max Overall Length:
2.950 in.
Rifling Twist:
1-in-18.0 in.
Rifling Lands:
6
Case Capacity (est):
93.6 gr. water
Primer Size:
.210 in.
NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:
500 gr
Muzzle Velocity:
2,120 fps
Muzzle Energy:
4,992 ft-lbs
The data is very useful for 500/375 HPDT enthusiasts. I enjoy reading the tips and experiments posted on the B&M site. Lots of it is a work in progress.
I particularly enjoyed the raw primer and filler data posted there. Its all just so practical and what most of us are trying to do as well.
Should find a way to thank them. The info shared is truely a golden nugget for big bore fans. I would love to put one of their lever gun cartidges together.
As a comparison the 500/375 easily replicates "Nominal Performance". Essentially twins here :-)
Ruger basic brass = no fireforming to speak of. Slightly more case capacity. Not enough to brag about but...
No belt! (Is this really an advantage? Starting to see why being headspaced off a belt could be useful in push feeds.)
Specs: 500/375 HPDT
Bullet Diameter:
.500 in.
Max Overall Length:
3.13 In.
Rifling Twist:
1-in-20.0 in.
Case Capacity (est):
109.5 - 110 gr. water/trimmed case 2.62+-
112 +- gr water @2.65 full length
Primer Size:
.210 in.
BtSnipers ql screenshot has more detailed specs if this isn't enough.
I need to get some foam filler and shoot the 500XTP and 375XPB max loads again with the 215 primers to see if there is a noticeable difference.
It amazes me that the 2 bullets with a weight difference of 125 grains. Basically produce identical pressures.
Of course the 375 is going much faster, farther and flatter. On a 100yd range the 500 is making a huge entry hole and expansion is huge. I haven't recovered any XPB's yet for comparison.
Suppose a water jug tests the thing to do? Though I never really took the results people post online seriously. It does seem a fair evaluation. Thing is I'm not a fan of the 500 grainer because its so range limited. It works very well within its limitations though!
Still looking for that 1 bullet that does it all. CEB Safari ESP Raptor might be the only serious contender. I'm just not fond of the price. But realistically I only shoot about 10-20 of these in a session. So once a load was working well the cost per session wouldn't be so bad. The question is does it bring enough velocity to justify being $20+ more a box? Do the gumby tips really translate into longer range? If not the bc without it doesn't appeal to me at all.
Especially not if I can get the XPB up to 2450 with some IMR4198. Hitting that magical 5,000 ft/pnds of energy usually only achieved by the heavy weights.
On a side note a fawn in spots just ran past me sitting on my porch no more 20' away.
Still searching for a quality bullet. So here is another premium vendor to consider. Specifically the Beowulf line with .035 thick jackets. Would think they will hold together well at higher velocities. I totally buy into the soft bullets improving accuracy.
http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm
I wanted to revisit the 500gr FP-XTP with slow burning tac. A few friends have asked about shooting this and I wanted to give them the full DG rifle experience.
500gr bullets @2150 FPS.
How it looks statistically.
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psrtiyccbm.png
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...pskusqgfoa.png
Now reality check. 7mm rm max load with 175gr bullet for comparison. Most people would rather not shoot this load on a regular basis and is considered about the limit for most to shoot comfortably.
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...ps52atvdej.png
Looks like Mr. BIG.
Really if left long the case capacity would be equal to the 458 Lott. Because the Hornady Ruger basic brass is a little soft and bullets a bit larger dia. Lott velocities won't quite be attainable with FP & HP bullets at least.
Once the brass has been fired a couple times it work hardens and handles max loads better. Eventually case seperation comes into play but pressures probably a bit high when you get there.
But with bullets of 500gr easily pushed 2150+ fps and lighter ones easily making 2350-2500 fps there is a clear niche filled here.
I haven't tried the 275-325gr bullets yet but 2600 wouldn't suprise me.
I doubt many who shoot the 458wm or 458 Lott push max velocity anyway except to win at the be a man game.
Kind of made the decision to stay with conventional bullets for this year. Am working on finding someone to do a small run of 385-410gr spitzer bullets with .050 jacket.
If nothing pans out I will have to spend next winter learning to cast n swage.
This round should never be bothered by the anti personnel classification as the BMG Bullet. But who knows!
Rossi 28ga/500 would have been an ideal platform. Too bad it never made it to market.
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...psavwqpoww.jpg
Retraction was stiff here so will have to run down to a lower node. Velocity will be less of course these were about 2184. Went down to 85gr velocity under 2100. Now I remember why I stayed away from this powder :-)
How to: Outside link to tech note @BearToothBullets.
Guide to reloading straight wall cartridges. Same basic reloading concepts apply here. Obviously.room for variation but well organized.
Beginners .45-70 Start To Finish :: By Mike Lengyel (Flashhole) on 2004-06-13
The tip from the guide above that helped me most:
Use sizing wax (I used chapstick) when crimping.
Except when crimping into the canelure I could never get enough of a crimp to hold my bullets. Crushed bulged cases were typical results of trying. Put a little wax on and lean into the press a bit more and viola perfect taper crimped bullets.
Uhg! Got notice on the 22nd Midway had 400gr Barnes Busters in-stock. Waited too long and out of stock already! I really wanted to test some In the 500/375. Maybe next year :-)
Jim, Good to hear she is on the mend. Prayers for you both.
Peter
Whats the latest update on load data here? I got some time to load and needing to buy some bullets anyways. Finally shot off the few 335gr speer bullets with 85gr H335. Accuracy was all over the place. Might need to check my scope.
Look at Hawk bullets if you are wanting accurate hunting bullets. Prices are decent there.
I have been considering trying to size down their 505 Gibbs round nose for a more rifle like bullet.
They carry a full line of .500 bullets. Beowulf .500 and .501 bullets.
For the accuracy is like any other cartridge work up to a node. Having an extended bushing for crimping would be helpful to get more consistent crimps.
I have a good load with Barnes 375gr XPB's with 78.5 gr RL-7 but haven't gotten the speed I desired from them. Definitely good enough for tin cans at 100yds. Same charge looks goodwith the 500's too but I haven't clocked those yet.
I think the H335 would go well with the 375gr xpb's or 500gr xtp's both build a lot of pressure for me.
Other powders to look at.
H322
IMR4198
H4198
AA2200
AA2015
AA2230
These powders should all give good results with 275-500 grain bullets. I have no desire to try anything heavier then 525grs so those are the powders I would try for low es, sd and best velocities.
I Haven't had time to shoot at all here for while but will share when I do.
Shot a few loads of the H335. 85grs and 335 grain speer bullets. Velocity was never consistent and the feel was different from shot to shot. With 85gr there is still room in the case. Likely to have erratic pressures this way? Need to try compressed loads of a different powder or fill the gap with something?
My experience with erratic loads has been the neck tension/crimp. I had to go with the 50 Beowolf sizing die to get the neck tension down to where it will hold the bullet properly. Too much crimp affects the case's ability to headspace on the case mouth properly. Its quite a dance to get everything just so with this beast. I'm running slightly oversize bullets and depending on neck tension rather than crimp to keep things even. (I leave a slight flare at the case mouth to better grab the end of the chamber.) .5015 to .502 has been working well for me. I just finished a batch of copper tubing jacketed swaged bullets that are weighing 458 grains. I use a gas check along with the copper tubing section to give me a 3/4 jacket bullet. I made a different nose punch for the swaging die to give me a little more aerodynamic bullet. Still haven't worked up a load for them yet, and they are very labor intensive to make. Jim
Faster powder helps a lot with lowering the es sd numbers. I've used starch packing peanuts to take up the air space not adding compression really. Dacron works too. But I feel it can add unwanted pressure when used that way. (See interweb myths on barrel rings from dacron)
My best accuracy and consistency has been with 400 & 500gr bullets. I think the fast 1:20 twist does better with that range. Lightest I tried were the 350's and they gave great velocities I just never got quite the same accuracy. The 375 barnes did show some promise but I gave up on them due to cost and disappointment in the velocities.
Have fun and keep us posted!
I find The best solution to fill the void are cotton balls.
Dean
In no way conclusive but interesting ptrace data.
http://m.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/...o-Fillers.html