stuck bolt assembly

I have a Savage 12FCv .223 with a stuck bolt. There is a spent case in the chamber, and the bolt will lift, but will not draw back. Gunsmith says the Case may have ruptured and is causing it to stick... he is attempting to remove it.

My question is this: I removed the ejector pin/plunger because someone told me it may shoot more accurately if I reduced the tension on the ejector spring... rather than reducing the spring tension by grinding it town a bit, I removed the whole plunger and retaining pin. I then fired 12 rounds without issue. Now it is stuck. Did I do something stupid? Might I have damaged it?

Any ideas / advice is appreciated.

The pin/plunger is the ejector, not the extractor. It's what pushes your spent brass to the side so it falls out the loading/ejection port.
You may have a primary extraction issue. A shim inserted between your bolt handle ramp (on the side opposite the bolt handle) and the rear baffle might help you pull the brass loose.

If it were me, I'd probably push a wooden dowel down the barrel and bang on it with a hammer once I knew the bolt was lifted all the way up.

thanks, Thomae. Not sure I understand all you are telling me, but I also noticed the front baffle on the bolt appeared to be backed-out somehow as if it was loose from the bolt because it could be clearly seen along the ejection port even when the bolt was closed. Not sure I described that properly. :)

A picture or two might help a whole lot.

What you are describing might be normal. The .223 baffle has an extension that keeps the bolt from being pulled back too far.

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You may have a primary extraction issue. A shim inserted between your bolt handle ramp (on the side opposite the bolt handle) and the rear baffle might help you pull the brass loose.

If it were me, I'd probably push a wooden dowel down the barrel and bang on it with a hammer once I knew the bolt was lifted all the way up.

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What Thomae was telling you to do is close the bolt. Place a shim between the rear of the action and the rear baffle. When you lift the bolt up the tolerence or slack is taken up and the ramp on the bolt will utilize the ramp on the rear baffle more effectively, possibly moving the case enough(primary extraction) to be able to open the bolt.

If that does not help making sure the bolt is open all of the way you could either use a dowel rod or a cleaning rod and insert it through the muzzle very carefully and tap on the end to push the cartridge back. A light taping on the bolthandle in the opening direction is anothr thing to try. Remember anytime you use a hammer it is with care and thought.

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Originally Posted by foxx

thanks, Thomae. Not sure I understand all you are telling me

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Here is a good video demonstrating short/late primary extraction and using a shim to verify it. The only difference, I place the shim between the bridge and baffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA

Bill

Cool. That was easy! Well, I should have sought help from you all before leaving it with the 'smith.

As for the extended baffle... I hadn't noticed it before, and it didn't make sense to me that it could be different than my others.

Frankly, it bothers me a bit that I hadn't noticed. Oh, well.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Cool. That was easy! Well, I should have sought help from you all before leaving it with the 'smith.

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So are we to understand that you retrieved your rifle from the smith and fixed the problem?

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Originally Posted by stangfish

What Thomae was telling you to do is . . .

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Thanks for clarifying and explaining what I meant. Seriously (no sarcasm intended). Upon rereading my post, it was a bit brief and your amplification helped foxx to understand better.

No, THomae, I did not retrieve it. At the time I thought it was worse than it is and did not think I had the tools, knowledge or competitence to fix it myself. I wish I hadn't left it with them, but now that I have I will not retrieve it. I suppose some day I will need their expertise and skills and will be happy if they are available to serve me. In the meantime, I an okay with paying a bit here and there if it keeps them in business and me shooting until I have the experience to fix stuff myself. I am okay with that, I guess. Having said that, I suppose next time I have a problem I will ( might?) not panic, and seek help from you all first!

I have no problem with you supporting your LGS. It never hurts to be friends with an expert.
Make sure you get your gunsmith to tell you what he did to fix it, or what the problem really was. We're offering suggestions, but of course, without looking and "playing" with your rifle there is no way to know if we DID come up with the right answer.

Let us know how this turns out.

Look at the bright side, you will now know if your smith is taking advantage of you. Also you can talk the lingo and comprehend what needed to be done.

ok, guys, I got my rifle back. I was not able to discuss the problem/fix with the smith directly. However, written notes on the repair order said "the handload appeared to be quite hot. also, Lapua and Norma brass is .003" larger in the web area to better fill factory chambers, in some cases the brass is too large for a chamber and can cause this to happen."

My eye sees no sign of high pressure other than the previous round had some black soot around the primer. If there is any "cratering"on any of the others, it is VERY slight. I would not say there is.

I am using 69 g Sierra Matchkings , Fed 205 primers (small rifle), 23.2 g of Varget, seated just shy of the lands. Brass was 2x fired, neck sized only.

I do not know what he did to remove the case, and there appears to be no damage whatsoever. The bottom of the case does measure 0.374" on my Lapua brass... he test-fired 3x using Remington factory ammo, those empty brass measure 0.371" at bottom.

Maybe I should reduce loads and "bump" the shoulders back?

Your load sounds conservative. Using Laupa brass in my 6BR, it is necessary for me to FL size every time. Necksizing them alone results in a tight bolt, and headspace measurements show the shoulders are stretching every time. Strange that this is the norm on my 6BR which is my best barrel (CBI) and brass (Lapua) while for other rifles necksizing has been adequate so far. Maybe it has a tighter chamber? Try FL sizing.

I shoot 69 SMK's all the time. My load is 24.5 grains of Varget so yours is well under the max and actually under the minimum.

Have you set the barrel back any? As in have you loosened the barrel and set the headspace on your brass?

Have you set the barrel back any? As in have you loosened the barrel and set the headspace on your brass?[/QUOTE]

No, I have not done that. Are you suggesting I do so?


However, I had another, more experienced handloader tell me the primers were flattened. So he agreed (with the LGS) that they showed signs of excessive pressure. I do not know why. I have bumped the shoulders back and am trying lower charges.

Are you 100% sure you loaded Varget? I have loaded 69 SMK's to over 25 grains of Varget and never had pressure signs like you describe. I also neck sized and never had an issue. Pretty sure Federal primers are known for being soft and that may be why they look like excessive pressure but are not.

I have literally loaded thousands of rounds using 69 SMK's and Varget using the data above, 24.5 grains. I have shot them in several different bolt guns as well as a few AR15's and I have never seen signs of pressure, ever. I have used CCI400, CCI41, R7.5's, Wolf SRM and Tula SRM with that load. I never used Federal because I heard they were soft.

I am not saying to reset your headspace. I was just curious whether you had or not.

Are you trimming your cases back below 1.76? If not then what might be happening is the throat is keeping the case mouth from opening and releasing the bullet. In some extreme cases the throat actual crimps the case mouth to a point the bullet is even harder to release out of the case. Either of these conditions can cause excessive pressures from a seemingly light load. I generally trim my cases to 1.745" and I can get 2-3 loadings before I trim again. But I ALWAYS check to make sure.

Do you weigh yur charges or take them from a dispenser? Maybe your charge is larger than you think. And put that ejector pin and spring back in the bolt. No need to remove it.

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by foxx

My eye sees no sign of high pressure other than the previous round had some black soot around the primer.

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There should be no soot around the primer. The soot coming out around the primer is a good sign that the load is too hot.

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Are you 100% sure you loaded Varget? I have loaded 69 SMK's to over 25 grains of Varget and never had pressure signs like you describe. I also neck sized and never had an issue. Pretty sure Federal primers are known for being soft and that may be why they look like excessive pressure but are not.

I have literally loaded thousands of rounds using 69 SMK's and Varget using the data above, 24.5 grains. I have shot them in several different bolt guns as well as a few AR15's and I have never seen signs of pressure, ever. I have used CCI400, CCI41, R7.5's, Wolf SRM and Tula SRM with that load. I never used Federal because I heard they were soft.

I am not saying to reset your headspace. I was just curious whether you had or not.

Are you trimming your cases back below 1.76? If not then what might be happening is the throat is keeping the case mouth from opening and releasing the bullet. In some extreme cases the throat actual crimps the case mouth to a point the bullet is even harder to release out of the case. Either of these conditions can cause excessive pressures from a seemingly light load. I generally trim my cases to 1.745" and I can get 2-3 loadings before I trim again. But I ALWAYS check to make sure.

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I am trimming back to 1.745 b/c that's my shortest case... And, yes, I believe everythig you are saying is true because my loads were well under published maximums for Sierra 69 HPBT-Match and Varget. and, I did not have any issues the first 20 or so... in fact, they were grouping less than .213 inches at 100 yds.

Yes, I weigh every load on an RCBS balance beam scale.

If I don't find a good group again with lower charges, I am gonna try again at 23.2g and see what happens. Maybe I had one heavy charge for some unknown reason and soft primers. Also, I am eager to see what the primers look like after firing the ligter loads.

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Originally Posted by earl39

There should be no soot around the primer. The soot coming out around the primer is a good sign that the load is too hot.

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I agree. But I cannot believe (or am having trouble accepting) that 23.2 g is too much. I know every gun is different, but there is room for some reasonable expectations , no????

Just a thought. Some RCBS scales are old. Some have been abused or at the least not cared for properly. The knife edges on the fulcrum can become worn and the beam can become "sticky". Have you test weighted that thing lately?

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Just a thought. Some RCBS scales are old. Some have been abused or at the least not cared for properly. The knife edges on the fulcrum can become worn and the beam can become "sticky". Have you test weighted that thing lately?

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Thanks, Stang. It's new. But to be sure, I just confirmed by weiging a 69 g bullet. It's true.

What I'm hearing is confirmation that , though I am new to handloading, my basic understandng on all this is valid.

When making those loads, maybe I set-up the scale wrong (I am not above doing that).

Will try the lighter loads this week (and maybe 23.2g) and report my results.

Thanks to all.

Where did you buy the powder? We had a local Walmart catch kids on camera mixing powders.

Can you verify the powder is extruded? (looks like small pieces of pencil lead)

I just find it hard to believe you are getting signs of pressure at close to 1 grain under the minimum load.

Do you have a chronograph? My 24.5 grain load was giving me 2,950 fps in a 26" barrel.

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Where did you buy the powder? We had a local Walmart catch kids on camera mixing powders.

Can you verify the powder is extruded? (looks like small pieces of pencil lead)

I just find it hard to believe you are getting signs of pressure at close to 1 grain under the minimum load.

Do you have a chronograph? My 24.5 grain load was giving me 2,950 fps in a 26" barrel.

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I bought the powder at Jay's Sporting Goods in Clare, MI. Not likely to be corrupted. It is extruded, a hint of an amber color to it (not carbon-black like any other brands I've used).

I have a new chrono, not used yet. Will break-out soon.

My references say Sierra matchking 69g HPBT with Varget starts at 19.9g, and goes up to 26.4. So, accordingto that, I am not at or below minimum, but certanly well below maximum; so I am still with you on that, dlomite_supafly.

Hmmm.

Varget is a Hodgdon powder and according to Hodgdon reference the starting load for 69 SMK is 24 grains and max is 26 grains in 223 Remington.

When looking at load data I only use the makers recomendations. Just because someone else says it will work doesn't mean it will.

Dolomite, you are right. I was looking at Sierra's tables. I just assumed they used Hodgdon as a source. Now I dn't know what to do.

Call Sierra and ask one of the ballistic tecs.. You would be suprised at some of the answers you will get, and these guys know what they are talking about.

Hodgdon has their reloading data freely available http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

What length are you loading the bullets ? If you seat them too deep it will raise pressure. If you seat long and "jam" them into the lands, it will raise pressure but usually you would only notice at max loads anyway. Seating long increases case volume and actually allows more powder for a given case pressure, provided the bullet still has a little jump before reaching the lands.

The 26gr load is listed as being compressed, so theoretically you would be hard pressed to load too hot with varget. By comparison, a faster powder like H322 achieves nearly the same velocity with a max load of only 23gr and its not near compressed either. That was what I had been using in my 222 and 223 before I switched to the 243 for coyote hunting.

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Hodgdon has their reloading data freely available http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

What length are you loading the bullets ? If you seat them too deep it will raise pressure. If you seat long and "jam" them into the lands, it will raise pressure but usually you would only notice at max loads anyway. Seating long increases case volume and actually allows more powder for a given case pressure, provided the bullet still has a little jump before reaching the lands.

The 26gr load is listed as being compressed, so theoretically you would be hard pressed to load too hot with varget. By comparison, a faster powder like H322 achieves nearly the same velocity with a max load of only 23gr and its not near compressed either. That was what I had been using in my 222 and 223 before I switched to the 243 for coyote hunting.

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They are seated long. Just off the lands. Not a lot of neck tension, either. I can actually twist and pull the bullet out ( by hand ) a little from the case if seated too deeply.

I would be careful of too little neck tension. You don't want the bullets being driven into the case by recoil when struck by the forward part of the magazine (not that a 223 has much recoil, this is usually a problem with 308+ cartridges in light guns as well as 357 and 44magnums and up). If that should happen, one would get increasing pressure with every round fired until the mag was empty (last should be highest). I certainly don't think a crimp is necessary, but I certainly can't move a bullet in one of my rounds by hand.

I use neck tension to hold the bullets and NEVER crimp, even in my AR15's. I took my sizing/decapping pin and chucked it into a drill. Then I used sandpaper to remove .002". That gives me plenty of neck tension without deforming the bullet.

Before continuing with Varget I am going to try another powder in the same cases. I want to see if I get any high pressure signs at relatively low charges with other powders. If I do not have any problems, I will try 23.2 of Varget again. Maybe I just mis-measured. I STRONGLY doubt it, but why not test dfferent powder for the same "signs"?

I will also try to call techs at Hodgdon and Sierra as well.

You might just try not firing the last round in the magazine through several reloads and then check if the length has shortened up. I never crimp either but nor was I claiming to be able to move the bullet with my fingers ....

I assume the barrel is clean and all copper fouling removed ? I bought a Galil/Golani from CAI where the "technicians" forgot to plug the barrel during parkerizing and so parked the inside of the barrel. Then the dealer took it out the box to "play with it" at the range prior to me buying it. Of course they never cleaned it either. Lets just say that after 5 days of repeated bore cleaning the patches were just as purple as on the first day. I'd guess that the pressure was a little high on that one... It got a new barrel.

What primers are you using ? You didn't accidentally switch in some small rifle magnum primers by any chance ?

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

You might just try not firing the last round in the magazine through several reloads and then check if the length has shortened up. I never crimp either but nor was I claiming to be able to move the bullet with my fingers ....

I assume the barrel is clean and all copper fouling removed ? I bought a Galil/Golani from CAI where the "technicians" forgot to plug the barrel during parkerizing and so parked the inside of the barrel. Then the dealer took it out the box to "play with it" at the range prior to me buying it. Of course they never cleaned it either. Lets just say that after 5 days of repeated bore cleaning the patches were just as purple as on the first day. I'd guess that the pressure was a little high on that one... It got a new barrel.

What primers are you using ? You didn't accidentally switch in some small rifle magnum primers by any chance ?

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I bought a AR barrel, from a MAJOR distributor, for $10 that hard the bore parkerized. I was using it for a 22lr build so I figured it would just lead foul and be fine. That wasn't the case. I used copper bore bruches, then SS bore brushes and gave up after patches made of sandpaper didn't help.

Funny thing is the distributor was not telling any other customer about the issues. When I asked about it the part owner just said Oh Well. I said aren't you worried about them having pressures and he said he didn't care.

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

I would be careful of too little neck tension. You don't want the bullets being driven into the case by recoil when struck by the forward part of the magazine (not that a 223 has much recoil, this is usually a problem with 308+ cartridges in light guns as well as 357 and 44magnums and up). If that should happen, one would get increasing pressure with every round fired until the mag was empty (last should be highest). I certainly don't think a crimp is necessary, but I certainly can't move a bullet in one of my rounds by hand.

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Thanks, West. However, that is not currently a problem b/c I am loading 1 at a time.

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

You might just try not firing the last round in the magazine through several reloads and then check if the length has shortened up. I never crimp either but nor was I claiming to be able to move the bullet with my fingers ....

I assume the barrel is clean and all copper fouling removed ?

What primers are you using ? You didn't accidentally switch in some small rifle magnum primers by any chance ?

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Yep, it is clean. No build-up of copper.

I don't own any small magnums.

Hey, keep trying, guys. I appreciate the ideas and help. :frusty:

I called Hodgdon this morning... tech said I may need to seat bullet further back from rifling. No other real suggestions for me.

Okay, so I decided to try another powder with same seating depth... I used BL-C (2) instead of Varget... I DID get some flattened primers and possible case separation signs at the higher levels... BUT, I also got some decent groups, so I move my attenton to developping accuracy loads with BL-C(2). I also seated bullets .10" from rifling... At end of day I was shooting perfect 3 shot groups at 100 yds with no signs of excessive pressure. :p

At this point I am assuming the Varget loads will be alright after seating the bullets deeper . Will report my results with Varget maybe later in the week.

Thanks, again, to everyone .