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I have a chance to buy a Mark 2 FV in .17 M2, for a good deal, basically for $100.00 less than the same in .22LR.
Was looking for a Mark 2 FV in .22LR and I may still buy it but, I don't want to buy the M2 and not be able to buy ammo for it in a couple years.
Thanks for looking,
wcmd.
Yes, the Mach 2 is all but dead. It has a small cult following, but most of the industry has cut their offerings down the the bare minimum as far as chambered guns.
Keep looking for that 22LR....ammo's cheaper and much easier to find, and you know you'll always be able to get it.
Not many guns but tons of ammo for it. Eley, Hornady, Remington and CCI have all stated they will continue to produce. It is cheap to make as all the components are already built.
The 22lr cannot even compare to the HM2 for anything other than target shooting. And to do better you need to spend considerably more on 22lr to shoot better.
Buy it, you won't regret it.
What useful purpose did/does the HM2 ever serve?
It's too destructive to use on small game that you'd normally use a 22LR on unless you go for head shots only.
The ammo is 3-4 times the cost of 22LR ammunition (hunting grade, which is what all the HM2 ammo is), and all you get in return is about 25 yards or so of additional range before the velocity bleeds off and it starts dropping like a rock.
The 17 HM2 was basically a one-year wonder. Hornady saw the success of the 17 HMR and figured if a necked down version of a 22 mag did so well then a necked down 22LR would do equally as well. Well, it did....for the first 8-10 months. After that dealers and distributors couldn't give the guns away. Most marked them down as much as 50% just to get them out of inventory.
At the same time the firearms manufacturers saw that the sales just weren't there like they were with the 17 HMR, and as such drastically cut back their offerings in 17 HM2. Savage cut their number of SKU's chambered in 17 HM2 by about 75% after the first year. Marlin and Ruger drastically cut their number of offerings as well.
Is there anything wrong with the HM2? No....not physically. What it fails to do thought is offer much benefit over the 22LR to warrant and justify the additional cost of the ammunition. It's generally a little more accurate at similar ranges, it has a slightly longer range, but that's about it.
As noted above, it's hunting applications are greatly limited as well. Yeah, it gives you the velocity and accuracy to drop squirrels out of trees from 75 yards, but the damage done by the bullet ruins the meat. Never tried it on rabbits, but I'm guessing it would have the same effect. It's also worthless on all but the smallest groundhogs as anything less than a head shot at 50 yards or more will just be a flesh wound. Probably good for Prairie Dogs inside 100 yards or so, but that's about it.
So where's the real benefit of the HM2? There isn't one, which is what the market realized after the initial
buzz of a new cartridge wore off.
+1 - ammo is plentiful right now, but when the gun companies quit making guns, the ammo won't stick around for long (see 5mm Remington, 256 Winchester, 22 Jet, 357 Max etc. - about the only one like that that you can find is the 22 WRF but that is pretty tough to find and gets spendy quick).
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=333643
The gun can always be built, ammo goes down to $3.92 when bought in bulk(2000). People have made shots much longer than 5 yards with it. It will stay within 1" out 115 yards. whether it dies or not, $400 will get your more than enough hunting ammo for a lifetime. It's a hunting round, just like the hmr, but is more accurate than most 22lr in the $4 price range. No dying round will release new ammo(the coming no-lead). Dying guns, maybe, but the ammo will not be drying up anytime soon I am told.
Lets start.
Triple the range of a LR. Out to 100 yards the HMR and HM2 are basically identical. At 4-5 dollars a box of 50 that is not double the price of good hunting 22. Destruction on small game is also very large with many 22's, to much to use. Ammo like the CCI Stinger, Remington Yellow Jacket, Aguila Hyper Velocity all cause just as much damage. I have taken everything from small squirrels to rabbits and even a coon with my HM2. Yeah, head shots are appropriate on game you are planning on eating. But for eradication it does not matter. Many "budget" LR does not work properly with the HP's not opening. Comparing bulk HP 22lr to a jacketed ballistic tip and saying they are in any way or form close to equal is downright wrong. As for accuracy. If any type of ammo you shoot in an HM2 does not pull 1/2 @ 50 yards something is wrong with the shooter or gun. It is an inherently accurate design. Can't say that about comparably priced 22lr ammo.
The HM2 was not made to go after the 22lr, it was made to be a budget HMR round (the HM2 was designed first BTW).
Comparing it to the 5mm is just asinine. The 5mm was flawed from the beginning, and it had nothing to do with the capabilities of the round. One manufacturer of rifle and bullets, one bullet type. And it was expensive compared to the 22WMR. The HM2 was made in the tens of thousands by tons of different manufacturers as was the ammo. This means there will always be a market for the HM2 ammo.
Before you go spouting the death of a round and it's imminent demise, go to RFC and see how many people are buying the guns and ammo buy the tens of thousands of rounds. And try shooting it yourself.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=311347
To be honest, I see the HMR as the left out round, monetarily speaking. THe LR is for plinking, and long range training if you will, HM2 for hunting small stuff. and the WMR for the big(for a rimfire) stuff.
Just to chirp in on this.......I know your looking at the price of the gun and thinking....HMMmmm, good gun price.
However, I'm not much of a 17 rimfire fan. I'm thinking if you want to kill something.....go with a 22 mag as you have plenty of ammo choices and the 22 mag isn't going away.
Now....for my "soap-box" on the 17 caliber.....If you happen to reload, I would strongly suggest you buy something in a 17 Fireball. If you don't reload, I would suggest you buy an el-chepo Lee kit and learn!! The Fireball will toss a 25gr. Berger at 3800 fps and will kill anything from a Crow to a fox.....to a Coyote (with proper shot placement) out to 200 yards. Energy falls off quickly after that.
But, I've shot small furry things at 40 yards with the Fireball and have had instant kills with no fur damage!
And with reloading......cost of ammo is dirt cheap! Or cheaper than dirt!....or pretty cheap dirt.....or something like that.
Anyway......save your $100.....add some more and get something that is more versital to add to your arsenal!!! (Now....if I could just spell)
MHO
Dave
I have to agree with the 22WMR argument. Since the HMR put a serious smack down on the WMR the ammo companies have stepped up their game with new WMR ammo. Still is not as flat shooting as the HMR but it is a lot heavier and is ballistically superior to what was out 5 years ago.
WCMD, you never said what you are going to use the gun for. You could always buy it, and get it rebarreled if it dies. There is a thread on RFC, and I think here too, on rebarreling Savages.
The M2 suffers from an identity crisis. The average sportsman did not realize it was a necked down 22lr (stinger) case. Most looked at the ballistics of it compared to the hmr, which is superior. However, in certain parts of the country we have no need for a hmr or 22mag. Here in central LA there are no varmints to shoot long range except maybe coyotes which need IMO a 223 or larger. We need a good squirrel gun. The 22mag is to dangerous, the hmr to much, and to expensive. The m2 fills the bill, with a ballistically superior bullet that deadens a squirrel when shot in the body. The 22lr cannot match the killing power of the m2. I have hunted fox and cat squirrels for years with a 22, with many body shots on large squirrels they live long enough to go in a hole or cover themselves up after being knocked out of the tree. They will die, but not be recovered. The m2 is deadly and the bullets are frangible, not nearly as prone to ricochets as a 22lr. The 22lr is a good bit cheaper to shoot if you buy cheap bullets, but the m2 is a squirrel hunters dream. It's not dead, get the rifle.
If you want to hunt, a 17 gr. Vmax is much safer than a 40 gr. solid. The hm2 won't hold energy as far as a 22LR, but will be flatter, and easier to put the power where you want it.
http://www.varmintal.com/17hmrdp2.png
http://www.varmintal.com/energy.png
I couldn't be happier with my 17hmr. I've had it for 2 years and I've had more small game(skunks,racoons,groundhogs)drop in their tracks than I ever did with my 22mag. Still have yet to try it on a fox or coyote. Ammo here is only marginally more $$ than the 22mag and at .30 cents a shot does not seem like much compared to shooting a slug gun where it might run $3-5 a shot. I guess it all depends on what each person likes to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaman
I also heard a rumor that they were coming out with a 15gr bullet, can anyone confirm this or is my buddy high??
non-lead round for the condor areaQuote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Bear
http://www.hornady.com/store/17-HMR-15.5-gr-NTX/
http://www.hornady.com/store/17-Mach2-15.5-gr-NTX/
Sure doesn't look like hornady would have released a new cartridge for the Mach 2 if it was dead or quickly dying. This is 2010 offerings.
http://www.hornady.com/store/NTX-newammo
Not a "new cartridge".....but just a new lead free bullet for both the M2 and the HMR. Hornady has worked to develop this new lead free bullet for a variety of calibers. A great effort to keep the shooting community out ahead of the Kalifornia Kondor Lead munching crowd and the don't eat lead when you shoot the deer crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by revbc
Dave
My grammatical error. It is not a new cartridge, but a new offering for the said dying M2. The M2 is an excellent and efficient rd. when used for the intended game, big ole fox squirrels! ;)
Bobby
I have one of these in a MKII FV. It shoots so well that I stocked up on 4000 rnds of Eley. I love my 22 but the HM2 gets used more for everything but paper. The accuracy is so good that olny my friends Anschutz is as good and the ammo he uses is twice the cost of mine. I'm so smitten by it I am building a custom stock and bolt for it. Might even silence it too. I won't say it's the best thing ever but it is far better then most 22's I've used.
Of the 3 smaller local shops in my area only ever saw 1 HM2 for sale, but each store was well stocked with HMR's.
Bet you won't find many 338 Lapua Magnums in most gun stores either. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.
Sure but the HM2's and HMR's are a relatively new breed and the average joe that walks in and has never heard of them and is looking for a rimfire would buy a 22 if there's nothing else on the shelf that catches his eye.
"The common .22 rimfire Short cartridge dates from the period of the American Civil War. It was first used in a S&W pocket pistol introduced in 1857 and it is the oldest cartridge still being loaded today." Chuck Hawks.
There is no doubt the M2 suffers from an identity crisis as I stated in a previous post. However, the 22 rimfire has had quite awhile to make a name for itself. As I said, the average Joe sportsman looked at the ballistics of the HMR compared to the M2 and chose the HMR. The HMR is a fine cartridge in its on right, but way overkill for squirrels and small game not shot at varmint rifle distances. I like my 22's, but I love this M2.
IMHO......If your looking for a cartridge with a bullet that is absolutely fantastic on varmints the size of groundhogs out to 125 yards, and shoots flat out to that range, then you should look at buying a box of the Hornady 22 Mag 32gr. V-Max.
This relatively new product (I think they introduced it a little over a year ago) gives me .5" groups at 100 yards from my Winchester 9422 Mag. consistently and I just don't get any "flyers."
And when that G-hog gets thumped by that little 32 grain red tipped bullet, it just plain flops! Some may give a one or two step effort, but that's about the best.
Now, I've hit 'em at that range with "regular" 22 mag 40gr. ammo and watched 'em run 25 yards to their hole and down. But not with this Hornady ammo.
And accuracy?? Have a Crow land in the 125 yard "Zone". If I do my part it's "feather pile!"
If you have a 22 mag rifle just lyin around, pick up a box and try it. You may be surprised.
Dave
Dave,
Not exactly sure the size of a groundhog, but apparently its bigger than a fox squirrel. Sounds like the 22mag is doing the job for you. I think this new ammo is the product of the 17 performance jump. But to get back to the OP's discussion, I don't think this new 22mag ammo is going to make the 22lr obsolete, just as the performance of the HMR is not going to make the M2 obsolete.
I know the sales on the M2's (rifles) have taken a dip, but they are still being manufactured by Savage and maybe a few others.
I wish they'd come out with a 20gr fmj and Hollowpoint offering for the mach2 like they have for the HMR. Mine is a cz-452 varmint.
Cz has discontinued the mach 2. :-\
Look into the 17aguila
Dying? I don't believe so. More like settling into it's own niche and becoming steady, after the first bout of "omg, a new round, gotta have it!" syndrome associated with almost all new cartridges.
Ironlance hit the nail on the head. The nice part of the rimfire 17's is you don't "have" to do any reloading....they are very accurate,.....and the report is very low,....and they pile up small critters out to 125 or 150 yards at a stretch.
But, just don't push them beyond their capabilities. Any tiny 20gr. bullet loses energy pretty fast once you get beyond 100 yards. Even my .17 Fireball shooting a 25 gr. bullet....the maximum range I use is 200 yards. Beyond that the energy drops off very fast.
So.....use 'em where they are ment to be used. But if your trying to shoot something at 200 yards with a M-2, your prolly pushing it....unless it's a tweety bird.
Dave
I know this thread is old, but I love the HM2 so much I just had to add my 0.02. There is nothing wrong with the HM2. Hornady made a mistake offering the HMR first. If the HM2 was released first, it would have the current following the HMR does. People would have bought it, loved it, and then when an even more powerful version came out, bought it as well. Some people still bought both, but an overwhelming majority won't see the need to "downgrade" which is a shame.
And unfortunately too many people have the attitude that its not different enough from the 22lr that it is worth getting. But that couldn't be farther from the truth. Don't get me wrong, 22lr has its place and many advantages. But going from 22lr to 17HM2 to me is very much like going from an air rifle (a VERY good one, this isn't an insult) to the 22lr. The difference in trajectory is dramatic.
The HM2 is awesome out to 125, and very usable to 175 if you can read wind well or if it is still. The HMR is a TON more devastating on game within 100 yards, and the nice thing about the HM2 is head shots to 100 yards are easily doable (I shoot mostly from prone though). The trajectory is fantastic. While the HMR has power/range to its advantage, the HM2 is better in every other way. Quieter, less ricochet, half the cost, just as accurate. Plus in most cases, the HMR is too powerful, and the range often isn't really needed. I wouldn't call the ammo just hunting grade. I shoot 1/2" 100 yard groups all day long, and have a .3" group from my 10/17 minus one flier that was all me.
LOVE IT. I just had SMOS arms built me a fully custom MK II receiver/barrel since their 10/17 barrel was so accurate. receiver and barrel are machined from one solid blank and mated. Can't wait to give it a try.
It is here to stay.
i have 2 hmr rifles and a hm2. i have found the hmr rifles to be the most accurate. i know of several other shooters in several different states who have found the same thing!!! the bullet just lends itself to the faster speeds of the hmr is the belief of most shooters. we have tested the hm2 at 25,50 and 100 yards and the hmr rifles have proven to be the most accurate. i have tried every type of hm2 ammo in mine. the eley hm2 ammo was the best by far, but since i purchased my 2 cases of it years ago, they have changed something in it. it is no longer the same ammo it used to be. even with the good eley hm2 ammo the hmr rifles outshot it with plain old 17 grain hornady ammo.
i don't think ammo is going away, but the rifle companies have backed way off production of this chambering. companies like cz have dropped it all together. the demand for it isn't there because there are better rounds out there. a few years back several gunsmith's tried to make match rifles using turbo actions and lilja 17 caliber barrels. they just didn't fly. they wanted to try the hmr(which is a more accurate round) but the bolt isn't long enough to use the hmr round and flash doesn't make a action for rimfire magnum rifle. the market isn't there and no sanctioned matches allow use of a magnum rifle. the have to be .22lr.
long and short of it is that the hmr does everything the hm2 won't. you just have to pay the piper when you buy ammo for it!!! i'm sure i may have made you hm2 guys upset, but somebody has to come in and state the truth. the round is lack luster in everyway compaired to the hmr. i believe the makers should have came out with the hm2 first, then unleashed the hmr. then you'd see a different story. the hm2 would be everyplace sitting on shelves because the hmr would out shoot it.
Obviously we disagree. The HM2 drops 4.4" at 150 yards. The HMR 5" at 175 yards. That 25yard difference is completely dependent on what it is used for. If you plan to shoot Coyotes with it, or mostly at ranges 175 and beyond, the HMR is the round of choice. Anywhere under that and there really is no huge advantage. However, if its a small game rifle, and where you shoot most is close enough to other people/property to make you pucker a little, the HM2 is better than the HMR and 22lr.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentucky gunner
I have shot 4 different HM2s and all shot sub-1" at 100. 3 were sub 1/2" with ELEY ammo purchased this year. I don't think accuracy edge goes either way. Although ELEY ammo is available for HM2, not HMR so IMO that is an advantage.
i used to shoot birds with the hmr daily. when i moved into this house i haven't had the time. the eley ammo isn't what people thinks it is. it's not match ammo. i have shot several hm2's besides my own and none will shoot under a inch at 100 yards. i have glass bedded and put pillers in only about 25 for other people. i have recrowned lord knows how many of them. did they shoot better? yes. i have yet to send one home that the people haven't called me back and thanked me for making them more accurate.
if the hm2 was so accurate the custom biult rifles on the turbo action would be everyplace. the fact is they are not that accurate. i'll say with 100% certony my custom biult .22lr will shoot rings around any hm2 at any range.
the simple fact is big name rimfire smiths have tried thier best to make highly accurate rifles based on this round. what did they deside after trying? to give it up. the .22lr is cock of the walk in rimfire.
here is how i look at it. if a .22lr isn't going to kill what i want at the range i need i step up to the .22 mag. if it doesn't reach out and kill what i need i step on up to one of the many centerfires i have on hand. i have also moved away from biulding savage target rifles. i now us B.A.T. or STILLER or HALL actions..
everybody wants everybody else to think one round is better than the other. i can tell you the hm2 isn't doing anything at all. nor is the hmr. it is just the hmr is a more accurate round period if your going to use a rimfire in the .17 caliber. to many other people have tried and figured it out.
this place is almost as bad as rimfire central on brand/caliber loyalty. there is no one action, no one caliber that will do it all. if there was i'd unload about 30 rifles and keep that one that did it all.
if you don't believe me go over to rimfire central and look at the ruger 10/22 section, the hm2 section, the hmr section, and then every other section. i'm tired of hearing how every factory production rifle is better than any custom biult match rifle. i've been in the match shooting game for rimfire and centerfire long enough to believe anybody other than a beginner is that danged stupid!!!!
heck the annies that show up in matches and win don't even have annie barrels on them unless they are in a factory class type match(and none of them are sanctioned by the way). they all have bruaghton,shilens,krieger,lilja,hart,douglas or now rock creek barrels. no green mountain barrels and certonly no 10/22 type actions period.
the hm2 is nothing more than a hunting round even with the non-match(nobody makes match ammo for the hm2 or the hmr. no eley or anybody)eley ammo. they are not sub-moa at 100 yard rifles. they are hunting /plinking rifle. the best rimfire smith's in the nation couldn't make a match grade rifle for a cheap plinking class out of them and now i have a guy tell me his shoots sub-moa at 100 yards. i'm flying the B.S. flag right here and now guys!!!!
Fly whatever flag you want. I'm not sure when custom built match rifles entered the "Is HM2 a good round" conversation, but clearly you have your mind set. I know what I shoot and the HM2's I've shot do. Thats all that matters.
100 yards:
[img width=536 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PasEXrRYnyc/TEVA5PFp6vI/AAAAAAAAAuc/Y94nWxQLzHQ/s800/17hm2-100.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_PasEXrRYnyc/S9M1JManu_I/AAAAAAAAAeI/wsJSrkEwDUU/s800/IMG_0669.JPG[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PasEXrRYnyc/S9M1IM3Z7PI/AAAAAAAAAeE/vOY_PfgeiJ8/s800/IMG_0668.JPG[/img]
I just got a Savage HM2 .......to go with my 3 Savage 17 HMR's. and my Savage 22........I love it, great accuracy and fun to shoot. Plenty of ammo available.
IF YOU DON"T WANT TO BUY TELl ME WHERE IT IS
Simply said the 22s are the immortal originals and the 17s are modern technology.
They are all financially viable for the ammo companies. They probably cant afford not to produce all rimfires because that is the market they expanded themselves too.
I think if they came out with 20 cal rimfire based on the LR and MAG it would be even better for us as consumers and them as manufacturers just because we have the technology to develop new bullets and the interest in new cals. I'm sure a 20cal rimfire could piggyback on some of the .204s prestige lol.
I recently asked this question on CGN actually.