New Firing pin spring choice.

I've been looking, and finally came across a great substitute. It's a Flat wire Chrome-Silicon spring. These are ISMI sold as recoil springs for the Glock 19. I grabbed a 22lb, which is 31 coils. I then cut it to 21 coils for correct preload. These are a PERFECT fit for Model 10/110 adjustable firing pin. Much less play than the stock spring, and compresses straight down. (Doesn't bow out like the stock spring.) I'm going to see how this one does & maybe try some other spring rates.

https://i.ibb.co/VJ1mMqs/7-E6-D5151-...50-CDECA20.jpg

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Same.

Rated at 22 lbs at what compression height?

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Rated at 22 lbs at what compression height?

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I don’t concern myself. What many think of in terms of a spring’s “weight” as relating to firearms, is actually LOAD. The LOAD is the amount of force, typically shown as pounds, it takes to compress the spring 1”. When we play the game of clipping coils of stock springs, the LOAD is not changing, rather the spring rate is. Take two springs of the same diam. wire & coils spaced the same . One spring is 10 coils the other is 15 coils. In a given length system with equal preload, the 10 coil spring will feel lighter. However, if we were to further preload the 10 coil spring with spacers, it will feel as heavy as the 15 coil spring. I can type out all the math as to why this is but quite frankly, it’s just BORING to me....and there are FAR too many web pages dedicated to explaining it all! (Interwebs: it ain’t JUST for the Face Page & PORN!) I understand spring load/rate at least as well as the average bear...maybe a bit better. I know what works & how to choose. This is how I’ve picked specific springs for my Accutrigger setups. Striker springs are a balancing act though. Spring load/rate must be chosen as to not impart unneeded weight on the trigger release, yet it must have enough energy to ignite the primer.

Dave, I am very interested in your findings. I too have found alternative springs. Sending you a message.

Don’t know when I’ll actually be able to test it at the range, but I should be able to to just prime some cases and test those here at home.

So basically you have no clue.....

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

So basically you have no clue.....

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Whatever you say Fred.

Machinerys handbook has the formulae to calculate spring rate based on wite diameter, id, od and number of coils.note: adjust the flatware sectional area to match spring are cross sections.

Yes, thank you bogboy... Like I said, I could have typed out all the math, but again, it’s boring! And as has been said: I’ll leave the “Calculus” to better minds than mine. OOPS! I mean Algebra. Actually the formula for flat wire springs is pretty involved. I’m not worried about numbers based on formula. I’m using the things I already know.

Once again, the norm in firearms is to list springs by their load rating, while in reality we are worried about the rate & most importantly...the impact pressure. It’s argued that the impact force required to set off primers is like 65-75 inch/oz. We KNOW a stock Savage spring is rated at like 26lbs. And a stock spring provides MUCH more impact energy than 75oz! I’ve also increased pin fall. Not to mention the flat wire, Chrome-Silicon springs provide a greater release of stored energy. I still need to check a few primed cases. But honestly, it’s just going to illustrate what I’m already fairly sure of. (Based on comparing to my old set up)

Like I expected, wasting the primers was futile. CCI primers... no problem going “POP”. I’m going to pick up a 20lb spring to try next. Find out the absolute limit & use the next one up.

Boy... for having “No Clue”, I sure do get “lucky” with choosing things. Like...with EVERYTHING! I’m sure some have seen the video I posted of how light my bolt lift is. It’s actually lighter. And the Action is super smooth. To be fair, it’s not the spring alone. I’ve been tweaking the Action. Lapping the PTG bolt, which a few hare Kiff(did I say that out loud?) But I love them. I have nearly 100% lug lockup contact. The Rear Baffle, I replaced the bearing balls with 1/8” Tungsten Carbide bearing balls. I need to make up some dummy rounds & maybe make another video showing how quickly this thing can be be cycled. Maybe We’ll make it a “try to beat it” test. Seeings how I’m just so damn lucky!

Heres one fired primer. The primer is still perfectly round because it had no powder/bullet.
https://i.ibb.co/CnKhvY3/CE6-BB9-FF-...-B306-D614.jpg

Just because it went pop, doesn't mean that you are getting all the energy out of the primer. There is such a thing as "cold fire". A primer can be struck hard enough to go off, but with not enough impact to expel all the energy. Low energy detonation accounts for fliers.

How did I KNOW that statement was coming? It’s like I’m psychic or something.

The belief of a primer strike which still sets off the primer, but being light & causing a “slow burn” is largely a myth. It’s a heavily debated topic(primarily in the rimfire community), with no way to actually prove it 100% for either argument. One side believes that velocities are affected by this. The other argument is that if the pin strike is enough to set off the primer, than a burn is a burn. I am of the belief that a primer which shows a very clear & pronounced audible tone, sounding like every other primer one’s heard, & having a well defined pin strike indent has experienced a complete & correct burn.

I know it to be a fact, I've done the research and experimenting. You can believe what you want to.

Oh yes....your "evidence" is so overwhelming.

Indeed I can. Thank you so very much for "allowing" me that.

I’m with “sharpshooter” on this one.
As if he needs my support!

That’s fine, you’re allowed to believe someone devoid of any evidence simply by their word. That’s your right. I like researching & thinking for myself. Uh oh...I see you deleted your first post.

A weak primer strike causes NO FIRE or a HANG FIRE, which is a delay. But once it lights off, it lights off. So a person can “claim” the mysterious “slow burn” theory...but that’s all it is. A theory. No one, including Fred, can produce any evidence proving this. And “because I say so” isn’t evidence. Do a search & you’ll see the debate.

What ever you say Dave

I see what you did there. Well, imitation is a form of flattery. FOLLOWING suits some people.

Volume is no substitute for well thought out ideas or concepts.

_.

Fred mentioned the term "cold fire". I believe it's what I know as "cold flash". We did tests
using a 38 special model 10 Smith & Wesson, heavy barrel with a Bomar rib, using 148 grain
wad cutters. and 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Fire arm was mounted in a ransom rest. The test
was about using hammer springs only ounces apart to look for any deviations in grouping
and velocities. Back then, we only had the resources of an Ohler 33.....We tried light springs
to find the boundary of consistent ignition then worked our way up. As we worked up in spring
weight, groups opened and closed, and velocities increased. These were my findings and used
it to win several PP match's before moving on to IPSC.

I would think using a Lab Radar, A dedicated load, and 10 springs about a pound apart would
suffice for a test.

I like that idea Fuj. Unfortunately I left my Doppler Chrono in my OTHER life, LOL!

Im just doing things the old fashioned way. I’m gonna test things, use my experience & see what shooting groups tell me. Remember, this whole thing is just ME sharing what I’m doing & how it’s working for me. I’m not telling anyone they should imitate. I always tell people to educate themselves & make their own informed decision.

Dave, don't let pride get in the way of credibility. I am all for what you are working on but you have stretched yourself very thin. Jim Borden, David Tubbs, Chad Dixon(long Rifles), German Salazar and a slew of other famous gunsmith/action maker/builders and competitors will tell you the same thing Fred is telling you. He is not trying to belittle you. He is keeping facts on the table. I have had pm's and forum messages from some of the top guys in the shooting industry in response to questions about this very topic. Consistent and correct amount of energy at primer impact are important for accuracy. If your happy with just hitting the target, maybe not so much. I am out of pocket at the moment but I will dig for some of the better responses if you would like to see them.

Again, I am all for experimentation and new ideas but there are absolutes that must be adhered to.

Thanks for the experienced post FUJ

Yeah, I don't drink koolAid. Did 20 some years ago. Not anymore. I don't doubt any his or any of the others expertise. In fact I've agreed with them on more than I can remember. But that means nothing to me. THIS is not an an absolute. I can direct to the severel articles I've read. Has nothing to do do with "pride". This is NOT a set truth, because so & so gunsmith says so.. seriously! I don't care who they are. I don't take anything at a person's word. I go research it myself. This is not something new to me. I read things online of BOTH arguments on this years ago. Here's the thing, what I said is correct: "There are dissenting arguments on this by knowledgeable people & NEITHER can prove their point 100%." Now tell me that statement is wrong?? If you do, you're disingenuous. You can BELIEVE either argument. But my statement is true. And I'm sorry, but I'm putting faith in a homebrew "test" by someone with an already bias point of of view. We have a way of making "tests" in dissenting arguments come out proving our own points! Just look at the nonstop BULL-SH** from Evolutionist scientists.

Also, whether anyone else thinks there was no condescedance directed towards me is irrelevant. Because "1, 2, 3 - 4, 5, OH! I know something you don't know!" And that makes me QUITE unpopular with certain somebodys. Which is fine...we don't have to friends. I simply expect the same curtesy that they do. That said, we'll let sleeping E-mails lay. But I digress.


Back to our regular scheduled program... for anyone that cares. I loaded up 5 new dummy rounds. These are loaded to 2.850"OAL I can go probably 2.875-2.880" in my AICS mag. One of things I just did was throating my Shilen barrel, as it was pretty short from them. It was hitting the lands at like 2.330" on the ogive. This was only giving me like 2.730"oak MAX with ZERO jump. I still need to make another video. But I need some help holding the camera. This thing is smooth & really, really fast. It's the quickest Savage Action loafing I've ever seen. I have the rifle in the cleaning stand(which weighs maybe 12oz!), and not holding the rifle or the stand, I cycle all 5. From closed bolt I load a round, pull the trigger, eject the round & repeat. I wish I could get someone with two arms to properly hold at aiming rest & cycle. I'll do a video soon.

Also Robin, to be honest.... I really am just interested in hitting the target anymore. I’ll never be as accurate again as I once was. But I can still get the job done. Until the One eye I have fails me. Already completely blind in my Left eye. So...

Here’s a pic of those new dummy rounds I made up.
https://i.ibb.co/MRWZ2nw/76-DAD8-AE-...985-E21621.jpg

Duplicate

Pistol recoil springs, what your real experience is in, has different implications. Pistol firing pin springs rarely change much more than a pound plus or minus. Never heard you talk about rifles much. If you work up a load you are interested in accuracy. If you buy factory ammo and shoot for the fun of it or even looking for minute of deer on the back 40 so be it. Two perfectly fine ideologies. As for altering rifles, there is only a few outcomes that my mind can wrap around. Aesthetics and function. If it is not for looks it must be for performance. The barometer that comes to my mind for performance is, does it improve accuracy in the condition it was developed for?

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Pistol recoil springs, what your real experience is in, has different implications. Pistol firing pin springs rarely change much more than a pound plus or minus. Never heard you talk about rifles much. If you work up a load you are interested in accuracy. If you buy factory ammo and shoot for the fun of it or even looking for minute of deer on the back 40 so be it. Two perfectly fine ideologies. As for altering rifles, there is only a few outcomes that my mind can wrap around. Aesthetics and function. If it is not for looks it must be for performance. The barometer that comes to my mind for performance is, does it improve accuracy in the condition it was developed for?

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Oh, I’ve been into rifles my entire adult life. Just pistol comp was the only competition I was part of. And I was primarily a pistol instructor(basic defensive training). Also, of course the AR was heavily my focus in rifles. Long range bolt actions were always there in the background. Mostly for hunting. However, I’ve always been a fan of research. I’ve focussed more on bolt guns since after being disabled(2014), being I can no longer “Run & Gun”. Can’t even shoot prone. I’m strictly a bench shooter. I still enjoy it, although I don’t get out much anymore. I just truly enjoy firearms. And I’ve never used my knowledge of them as a means of profit. Except for working at a large range/Gun store. On the sales floor for a time, but later became the range manager.(which was a better fit for me). I continue researching firearms tech, sometimes hours every day. My favorite thing is my home-brew gunsmithing/repair/building/fart’n around though. Ya know... with my “Bench Vise & Small Box containing a few headspace gauges.”. I think I have a pair of pliers, hammer & a couple punches as well. :very_drunk:

You left out the part out about the hundreds of thousands of rounds shot for score out of the actions(with bolts that have firing pin springs) you designed and built. You know the ones made with pliers and hammers and punches.:caked:

No.....it was only ONE hundred thousand.:crutch:

Now get you butt back in the shop and make me a cool knife to give my son for Christmas!

Classic Dave on full display - "I'm always right and everyone else is always wrong." :hail:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Dave, don't let pride get in the way of credibility. I am all for what you are working on but you have stretched yourself very thin. Jim Borden, David Tubbs, Chad Dixon(long Rifles), German Salazar and a slew of other famous gunsmith/action maker/builders and competitors will tell you the same thing Fred is telling you. He is not trying to belittle you. He is keeping facts on the table. I have had pm's and forum messages from some of the top guys in the shooting industry in response to questions about this very topic. Consistent and correct amount of energy at primer impact are important for accuracy. If your happy with just hitting the target, maybe not so much. I am out of pocket at the moment but I will dig for some of the better responses if you would like to see them.

Again, I am all for experimentation and new ideas but there are absolutes that must be adhered to.

Thanks for the experienced post FUJ

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I've hada recent skirmish with ftf. Several bolt rebuilds and spring changes led me to the investigation of possible cause. It finally was narrowed down to faulty loads.
My primer arm and priming pin on my 55 year old Herters press was installing primers at a slight angle ad distorting the primer cups, unleashing the anvil from the assembled primer. The past year revealed thousands of loose anvils while depriming. Which was not a normal resit in the past. Ftf with loose headspace and deep seated primer combination also became common shown as light strikes on primers. On one occasion the primer popped and set the bullet inthe lands. Opening the action with the h335 (blc2) powder and while in the safe fine powder found its way through the firing pin hole in the boot head and bound up the pin and spring adding to problems along the way.
Pull downs after ftf showed partially burned stick powder ( salt & pepper colors).
One fully dented ,2 strikes primer when deprived showed black of the burn along with the loose anvil .
Tone ftf had a hang fire that easily could have hurt me or that rifle.
It pushed my hand back as it was opened but the powder did not ignite that one scared me and also jammed the bullet in the lands. My dad warned me about hangfire years ago
I don't know if he learned about them in the service ( army ww2) or if he read about them.
Always after ftf I'm very careful and open slowly.
I've had a couple years ago do to moisture in them and one I can control its to sneezing.
Now primer installation, headspace and contamination.

“Classic Dave on full display.”

Gee, thanks for that. But uh, I’m not the one attacking members here. Real classy....Very telling about character.

Aftee seeing well hit primers blackened & resulting in ftf makes me believe in :cold fire.
Twice the ftf resulted in salt & pepper powder where every other kernel was light brown.
My press producing loose anvil was another indication that light strikes can result in no bang.
My next experiment would be to return to improper priming with the old parts in my press and pop thenin the shop. If i used my bore cam to examine for misplaced anvils.
Earlier posts by Dave H. Prompted me to experiment with shorter springs, I was able to achieve a one finger lift! I'm working on an idea for a firing pin spring compressor to replace one I built several years ago.
The velocity test mentioned above should be possible with a magneto speed as well as a lab radar.
Magneto speed gets a big shout out from me as they just replaced mine after it quit on me after two years of almost daily use. Problem was in the cable where it leaves the bayonet.
The warrantee is for 2 years and was the first time I've ever needed one on anything. No airbag recall on this one.

Well whats the reason why we all need to know the velocity anyway?

The velocity on my ftf is usually zero.

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

The velocity on my ftf is usually zero.

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:applause::applause: