Headspacing damage

Anyone ever heard of a headspace gauge damaging a chamber? A few times I've had my barrels turn just a bit when tightening down the nut and my go gauge ends up being a little snug in there. Will a situation like this cause damage to the bolt or chamber? In all cases I have just broke the nut loose and backed the barrel off a bit to be where I want. I am talking about the instant that you realize the bolt is tight on a go gauge.

Any experiences or opinions?
Maybe I need to quit worrying.

Thanks in advance,

KF

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Maybe I need to quit worrying.

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Probably should. If it is a properly made gauge there should be no damage.

The shaw headspace gauges look like they could damage a chamber at the shoulder. You would see it on the brass.

I use Forester gauges, they have pretty good contact area at the shoulder.

Thanks for the replies. I feel better now.

KF

I suppose you could have some chamber damage....if you close the bolt, snug up the barrel, and during the nut tighting process ignore the fact that the barrel can still tighten up as you tighten the nut. I mean...this can occur. So, should this happen during your nut tightening process, you have to either loosen the barrel a tad to compensate for this, or have your wife\girlfriend grip the barrel with her teeth to prevent the barrel from turning when you tighten it down.

Of course, you could always adjust your barrel against the gauge, then unlock the bolt, tighten the nut, then re-check the headspace. If it's too tight, loosen it up and try again.

JMHO

Dave

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

Of course, you could always adjust your barrel against the gauge, then unlock the bolt, tighten the nut, then re-check the headspace. If it's too tight, loosen it up and try again.

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Yep

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I suppose you could have some chamber damage....if you close the bolt, snug up the barrel, and during the nut tighting process ignore the fact that the barrel can still tighten up as you tighten the nut. I mean...this can occur. So, should this happen during your nut tightening process, you have to either loosen the barrel a tad to compensate for this, or have your wife\girlfriend grip the barrel with her teeth to prevent the barrel from turning when you tighten it down.

Of course, you could always adjust your barrel against the gauge, then unlock the bolt, tighten the nut, then re-check the headspace. If it's too tight, loosen it up and try again.

JMHO

Dave

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Excellent suggestion on how to hold the barrel while tightening the barrel nut. The last time I asked the 'lil woman to hold the barrel, she tried to hold against my throat.
From that point I opted to use my big Vise Grips with the slightly rounded jaw. I cut a piece or THICK leather about 3 inches long & use it to insulate the vice grip teeth from the barrel. If you have the kind of leather where one side is shiny / dressed & the other is rough, use the rough side. Put opposite pressure on the V-Grip while tightening the barrel nut.
Works great when you're a one man operation...
Good luck.

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

Excellent suggestion on how to hold the barrel while tightening the barrel nut. The last time I asked the 'lil woman to hold the barrel, she tried to hold against my throat.

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If you can get this type of behavior on your cell phone, then you have a good case for battery....or maybe it's assault. I wouldn't mention battery around the little lady when your chatting with the cops. The last time I did that, two (yes 2) 12-V car batteries actually came sailing across the room at my head.

You know....for a 5' tall woman, she has amazing strength.

Dave

My brass looks good & rifle functions fine.

Thanks guys

I haven't changed a barrel yet so take my words with a grain of salt. Gages tend to be hardened pieces of metal ground to shape. I would never put any serious pressure against one with a relatively soft chamber. IOW, I'd use the gage, hand tighten the nut, make a witness mark, remove the gage, tighten and then see if the rifle would accept it after tightening. If too tight, I'd back away a bit on the witness mark and try again.

Why use gauges?

I have been using brass to set headspace for years. I generally use brass that has been fired then sized in MY dies. But if I plan on shooting factory ammo I use it to set the headspace. If you don't have any fired and sized brass to set the headspace then you can use a piece of factory ammo to do the same but you must be extremely careful.

Before starting I do a few things. I remove the ejector from the bolt head to prevent any problems it might cause. Do it inside a bag of some sort because it can get launched into an alternate universe never to be seen again. Next I make absolutely sure the safety is in the mid position so I can work the bolt but the gun cannot be fired. I also make sure to do it with the gun pointed in a safe direction while wearing safety glasses. And finally the most important thing before you get start, make 100% sure you are not distracted and that you cannot be distracted during this procedure. If there is a chance you might be distracted do not start and if you are distracted start over from the begining.

After doing the above I set headspace one of two ways.

I set headspace at the bare minimum by tightening the barrel down on the piece of brass or ammo. I generally only do this when I will only be shooting brass that I have sized in MY dies OR if I will only be shooting the same brand/lot of factory ammo. With nothing under the piece of brass or bullet I will install it into the bolt head, under the extractor, before I tighten the barrel down. It will stay in place and the extractor will not need to jump over the rim. I snug the barrel down without really tightening it to hard. I snug the barrel nut down as hard as I can by hand then I remove the piece of brass or bullet from the gun. Then I tighten the barrel nut down using a wrench. After the barrel nut is tightened using a wrench I check the headspace by using a single piece of standard white paper placed in the bolt head under the piece of brass or bullet. I try to close the bolt and it should be very hard to close but not impossible to close. With two pieces it should not close without a great amount of effort, if at all.

Or if I want to have a little more clearance because I am using ammo that might have some variation, like different brands of factory ammo, I do it this way. I follow the same exact instructions above except I add a single piece of standard white paper between the bolt head and the piece of brass. Once the barrel and barrel nut are tight I use two pieces of the same white paper placed between the bolt head and piece of brass to verify headspace. The bolt should be very hard to close but not impossible to close with two pieces. Or I sometimes use a piece of resume paper as a "no go" gauge and it should not close.

Use a caliper and make absolutely sure the standard white paper you are using is under .003". Standard white paper tends to run .002"-.003" and resume paper tends to run .007"-.008". So using resume paper is how I check for "no go" but I never use it to set headspace. I cut a small square then cut the corners off to allow it to lay flat inside the bolt head without touching the sides, or extractor, of the bolt head. You could probably use a hole punch to make it as well. Some people use clear plastic tape, I have in the past, to do the same thing but I prefer paper anymore.

But as a general rule I use the ammo or brass I plan on shooting to set the headspace without using any paper for clearance. If I buy some factory ammo, which is extremely rare, I loosen the barrel and tighten it back down on that ammo.

Then I reinstall the extractor and go shooting.

I have done this same exact procedure at least 50 times now during barrel swaps and have yet to have any issues but I am very, very meticulous when I do it. But if this sounds to daunting or to risky or if you have problems paying attention to what you are doing then take the gun to a gunsmith to set the headspace. I know my smith used to charge me $25 to set the headspace on Savages before I started using the method above.

You are responsible for your own safety, it is not my responsibility to keep you safe.

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Why use gauges?

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Because gauges are made to exacting standards and will not give under any stress like brass can do. This is why gauges are made. In any manufacturing process from planes to trains to automobiles, gauges are used in every step of the process to get it right.

That's why for roughly $38, you should buy a quality gauge. I can save your $500 to $1000 firearm, plus your $150 to $1000 scope, your eye sight, and maybe your life.

Seems like cheap insurance to me.

Dave.

The problem comes from the headspace being too loose, not from being too tight. And my way results in a tighter headspace than most gauges built according to SAAMI specs. Not saying headspace gauges are bad but neither is setting your headspace to minimum using the cases.

Having your headspace set to a minimum, even if it is below SAAMI, will be safe. It helps your brass last much longer. It can improve accuracy.

If a gun is going to kaboom from the headspace being wrong it is because the headspace is too loose, not too tight.

The freaking sky is falling ..... again!

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Originally Posted by stangfish

The freaking sky is falling ..... again!

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LOL

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

If a gun is going to kaboom from the headspace being wrong it is because the headspace is too loose, not too tight.

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That's why these other gauges that fall from the sky are called "No-Go" gauges. And.....if your gun closes on one of those, seek professional help. Or you can read about the "Field gauge" which can only be found during rainy days in a field. Should your bolt close on a Field Gauge, you should not load anything in the chamber.

But again, they make quality gauges for a reason. They also make directions on how to use 'em. Brass companies make brass. And it's not to the exacting standard a go\no-go gauge is made.

BTW.....all of my guns go Ka-Boom. It's just that none of them ever blow up.

Dave

Just to throw a werench in the works, this discussion went on a long time ago. I fforget who it was that said it, maybe Fred Moreo. The upshot is this, when you tighten the barrel nut the barrel actually backs out a small amount, not tighten up. If anyone remembers this conversation please speak up so I dont sound so much like a dodering old fool. (ene if I am)

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by ellobo

Just to throw a werench in the works, this discussion went on a long time ago. I fforget who it was that said it, maybe Fred Moreo. The upshot is this, when you tighten the barrel nut the barrel actually backs out a small amount, not tighten up. If anyone remembers this conversation please speak up so I dont sound so much like a dodering old fool. (ene if I am)

El Lobo

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Makes sense. The nut is pressing the receiver and the barrel threads in opposite directions. I will say I have noticed that on barrels that I really tighten down the closing effort seemed to lessen. I always thought it was the paper or tape getting flattened out some.

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Originally Posted by ellobo

Just to throw a werench in the works, this discussion went on a long time ago. I fforget who it was that said it, maybe Fred Moreo. The upshot is this, when you tighten the barrel nut the barrel actually backs out a small amount, not tighten up. If anyone remembers this conversation please speak up so I dont sound so much like a dodering old fool. (ene if I am)

El Lobo

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"Typically" when the nut tensions the threads the head space will increase .001"-.002". I only ever had one where it decreased, but that I believe was due to the combination of a out of square ring face and a lug as straight as a dog's hind leg. I don't know exactly why nor did I spend much time trying to figure it out. After squaring the ring, the nut and using a flat ground lug it acted normal! :p

Bill

Mine have ALWAYS loosened. I too, am a fan of using gauges, but to those that choose not to, it's their choice, their gun. I'm sure if anyone is ever hurt using someones guns that has had a barrel swapped, by owner, and it ends up in court, use of the proper tools would be a real sticky point. Then again the fact that none (or most) of us are smiths might too.

School me.

I was under the impression that too little headspace (i.e. bullet touching the lands) could cause the pressure to spike catastrophically.

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Originally Posted by jbjh

School me.

I was under the impression that too little headspace (i.e. bullet touching the lands) could cause the pressure to spike catastrophically.

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But that is not headspace. Headspace is to the shoulder. Chamber and throat length is something you can't control without a reamer.

Headspace has nothing to do with bullet length or the lands. Headspace is from the base to the dattum on shoulder. I.E... 308's are checked at .400

If your gauge is getting tighter when you tight your nut then the barrel is not secure enough. Neither your action or the barrel should turn when you are setting the nut.

using a gauge is the correct way. Other methods might work but you are more than likely not setting your headspace to spec. If I were to use brass it would have to be brass that I have fireform in the gun, filled with marine tex, jbweld or some other epoxy to keep the brass from deforming. But then, I would have had to have a gauge to set the barrel right before fireforming... Unless you rent it, buy then sell it or have someone head space the gun for you I dont see the point of saving $30 but to each its own.

Setting the headspace to a sized piece of brass isn't so much about saving money. It is about saving my brass. Especially because I shoot 300 Blackout. Every single of brass I have in 300 Blackout I had to make and it is a pain in the butt. So If I can get 5 loadings rather than 4 that is a huge benefit. I actually get a lot more than that. My brass doesn't grow nearly as much so it doesn't get work hardened as much and lasts longer.

I also set my headspace to a piece of fired brass that was full length sized in my die. I then check again with a .003" piece of stainless shim stock (we have a bunch of this at work) between the boltface and case for a no-go.
I started doing this for the exact reason as d_s in post #25 above, it just seems to make sense to me, even though I don't make my brass.
As all I shoot is my reloads, I don't care one bit about factory ammo at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly

Setting the headspace to a sized piece of brass isn't so much about saving money. It is about saving my brass. Especially because I shoot 300 Blackout. Every single of brass I have in 300 Blackout I had to make and it is a pain in the butt. So If I can get 5 loadings rather than 4 that is a huge benefit. I actually get a lot more than that. My brass doesn't grow nearly as much so it doesn't get work hardened as much and lasts longer.

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I load all of my 6.5x55 Swede's with Lapua or Norma Brass. I also headspace my bull barrel and my sporter barrel with headspace gauges. The key to prevent brass growth, just like you do when you have a factory rifle, is to first determine the headspace of the chamber with one piece of once or twice fired brass. Then you simply adjust either a F\L die or a body die so that your brass has 2-thousands of free headspace to chamber.

I will get 15 to 20 reloads from quality brass for my 6.5 Swede and I load them just a tad over the recommended maximum as this gives the 140gr. bullets just enough velocity to get one ragged hole at 100 yards, and sub-MOA at the longer 400+ yardages.

Dave

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I load all of my 6.5x55 Swede's with Lapua or Norma Brass. I also headspace my bull barrel and my sporter barrel with headspace gauges. The key to prevent brass growth, just like you do when you have a factory rifle, is to first determine the headspace of the chamber with one piece of once or twice fired brass. Then you simply adjust either a F\L die or a body die so that your brass has 2-thousands of free headspace to chamber.

I will get 15 to 20 reloads from quality brass for my 6.5 Swede and I load them just a tad over the recommended maximum as this gives the 140gr. bullets just enough velocity to get one ragged hole at 100 yards, and sub-MOA at the longer 400+ yardages.

Dave

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++++1
:(
That's the way it's always been done. Doing it the other way runs the risk of not fitting SOME factory ammo in it. If it's a target only rifle and it ONLY sees YOUR reloads, probably not a big deal, but for a hunting rifle, ya never know when you'll forget your ammo.

Thanks. I often cross contaminate ideas when reading (but luckily not while doing).

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Originally Posted by Berniep

But that is not headspace. Headspace is to the shoulder. Chamber and throat length is something you can't control without a reamer.

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