Help Please--I'm Stumped!

I know this is a Savage forum but you guys are the smartest and most helpful of any forum I'm on, so I thought you could help me!

I just bought a new Ruger American in 270 and am still breaking her in--but I am having a heck of a time figuring out why I'm having this problem:

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5291f412.jpg

When I fired the rifle for the first time my shots were spraying all over the place--minute of dwarf star accuracy--but as the barrel got very hot everything tightened up significantly. Everything in the scope system is rock solid. I did some stock work and the barrel truly free-floats now, but today I experienced more or less the same thing--the first 4 "cool bore" shots--which I timed to keep the barrel cool--walked all over. Then I shot the last four barrel hot and they tightened up sub-MOA and were virtually dead-on my intended POA.

I've experienced this with AR's--but never with a bolt gun. I figure something someplace is swelling up as it gets hotter and somehow imparting better accuracy--but what?? I can't confidently take this gun hunting shooting this way.

My guess is your hot barrel is making for a hot chamber which in turn is turning up the pressure on your loads (which they seem to like) so they are shooting tighter. If you're doing handloads, try hotter loads for your cold shots and see what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by foxx

My guess is your hot barrel is making for a hot chamber which in turn is turning up the pressure on your loads (which they seem to like) so they are shooting tighter. If you're doing handloads, try hotter loads for your cold shots and see what happens.

---

Interesting thought--I've shot a wide variety of factory stuff and all seem to wander in the cool bore. I have all the reload gear--but haven't quite got my shop set up yet after moving. I've shot a wide variety of factory stuff--could the pressure factor make that much of a difference? It seems to happen with all sizes and types of ammo I've tried.

Well, you know a hot barrel shoots well. Do the most obvious thing first and see how she reacts. Rifles are just like women, you know that. Some like it HOT! :)

Are you shooting the exact same way each time or is there a little flinch in the first four shots until you settle in? I bet your right handed as well? And how is the trigger? Tight? Im with foxx for the most part you may need to turn the loads up a bit or get the barrel fouled up so its tighter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

Are you shooting the exact same way each time or is there a little flinch in the first four shots until you settle in? I bet your right handed as well? And how is the trigger? Tight? Im with foxx for the most part you may need to turn the loads up a bit or get the barrel fouled up so its tighter.

---

I do concentrate on repeating the exact same rest positions--although the trigger is supposedly dialed down to 3 pounds I find that it's very stiff and the break happens abruptly--I'm guessing working on the trigger a bit might help. It truly feels like no other trigger I've ever pulled--but I'm not blaming it. Since I'm still breaking the barrel in I'm frequently cleaning it--and someone made the suggestion that maybe this rifle just shoots better dirty--I don't know--but I'll skip cleaning before the next range outing. Thanks for the suggestions.

It might be clean bore issue not cold bore if you are cleaning it constantly

Had this happen with a single shot in 308. Almost a good buckshot pattern with 150gr bullets. Changed to 180's and the gun settled in to acceptable hunting accuracy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thermaler

I do concentrate on repeating the exact same rest positions--although the trigger is supposedly dialed down to 3 pounds I find that it's very stiff and the break happens abruptly--I'm guessing working on the trigger
a bit might help. It truly feels like no other trigger I've ever pulled--but I'm not blaming it. Since I'm still breaking the barrel in I'm frequently cleaning it--and someone made the suggestion that maybe this rifle just shoots better dirty--I don't know--but I'll skip cleaning before the next range outing. Thanks for the suggestions.

---

hole crap 3lbs....I can also guarantee thats a big part of it and yes stop cleaning the barrel most barrels shoot better fouled and if its for hunting and you go out and zero your scope then go home and clean it you can pretty much bet your going to miss a buck or 2 until the barrel fouls again....when your groups open up then clean but dont take all the copper out just the heavy stuff...when your pulling light blue its good.

I know when I clean the barrel on my savage it shoots like crap on a clean bore. After 10 shots I bet it really starts to tighten up. It'll go from 1- 1.5" groups to 1/4-1/2" groups. And if I leave it dirty it'll shoot those tiny groups right off the bat next trip to the range. I generally leave the barrel fouled but when it does get cleaned I've gotta dirty it up to shoot right. The clean barrel changes my point of impact an awful lot also in addition to larger grouping. I'm no expert but I agree it may be a possibility.

Yeah I would not be surprised if it takes five or more to foul it good. Most savages do that for sure. Most aftermarket lapped barrels need 1 or 2.

I'd try some 150gr bullets too. Friends wife and daughter shoot 270 and it really tightened up with the heavier bullets. 130's scattered pretty bad could never be confident it was zeroed. He doesn't reload so its just been off the shelf cor-lokts.

Once my groups open up on my rifles, I clean the barrels. I don't go overboard on cleaning, just of times of Hoppes 9 is good enough. Groups tighten up again.

I have always needed 5 fowlers and it settles right down, my cbi and savage barrels alike...

I clean every 100 or so to keep it consistent, personally...

But still, I will be surprised if you can find a cold bore load that shoots well in a sporter barrel after it heats up. It mKes sense the barrel should be fouled. It makes sense it should be cold. If it shoots that well with a hot barrel I want to see what it does after a long rest (let it get cold again) without cleaning. It will either be unbelievably good or way off. I simply have never known a sporter barrel to get better and have the same poi as a cold bore. Remember its the cold shot that counts when hunting.

Keep it dirty. Dont clean aggressively or thoroughly when you do and try some hotter loads to see if your barrel prefers high pressure loads.

Over 8 rounds is it really getting THAT hot?

On my -06 i would have to shoot over 15 rounds in close succession to start pulling up and left...

They are all different I spouse but my A-bolt 06 will wAlk right off the paper with each shot after a couple.

Oh ok, that is good to know... I dont have any sporters at this point, but I may get a light weight in the future when im done with my second heavy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by foxx

But still, I will be surprised if you can find a cold bore load that shoots well in a sporter barrel after it heats up....Remember its the cold shot that counts when hunting.

Keep it dirty. Dont clean aggressively or thoroughly when you do and try some hotter loads to see if your barrel prefers high pressure loads.

---

Precisely my worry--no matter how well it shoots warmed up--which is pretty well since I have maybe 75 rounds down the tube--it's that one and only cold shot you get in the woods that is the most important for me.

The trigger is one of the features that totally baffle me. It has received very high ratings and praises in just about every review I've read--I think it sucks eggs bigtime. Right now there are no after-market alternatives so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and see what I can do to improve the pull and break characteristics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by foxx

But still, I will be surprised if you can find a cold bore load that shoots well in a sporter barrel after it heats up. It mKes sense the barrel should be fouled. It makes sense it should be cold. If it shoots that well with a hot barrel I want to see what it does after a long rest (let it get cold again) without cleaning. It will either be unbelievably good or way off. I simply have never known a sporter barrel to get better and have the same poi as a cold bore. Remember its the cold shot that counts when hunting.

Keep it dirty. Dont clean aggressively or thoroughly when you do and try some hotter loads to see if your barrel prefers high pressure loads.

---

well said!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thermaler

Precisely my worry--no matter how well it shoots warmed up--which is pretty well since I have maybe 75 rounds down the tube--it's that one and only cold shot you get in the woods that is the most important for me.

The trigger is one of the features that totally baffle me. It has received very high ratings and praises in just about every review I've read--I think it sucks eggs bigtime. Right now there are no after-market alternatives so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and see what I can do to improve the pull and break characteristics.

---

are you sure riffle basix dont make a trigger for your riffle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

are you sure riffle basix dont make a trigger for your riffle?

---

Yup--called em up just now--no trigger for the American. Sorta like when we were all waiting around for an aftermarket stock for the axis--the aftermarket manufacturers need to wait around and see market numbers grow big enough for a new model to justify the R&D put into a new product.

Well that sucks no triggers....just a tip and this is what I do when doing load development(but i shoot 3 shot groups until i find a load then go to 5 shot groups)I shoot in long range varmint silhouette matches so I want my first shot to count as well as the last....get a tee shirt or a towel wet and wrap your barrel with it to help cool it off faster after each round...shoot 1 round and cool your barrel make scope adjustments and shoot another round...this will help you find a cold bore load faster...also pay close attention to you tigger pull, try placing your finger deeper or shollower and either dry fire or get a snap cap and dry fire with your scope on target and watch closely to see if your cross moves off target when you squeeze the trigger. And heres a tough one...put a dime on the end of the barrel and dry fire if it falls off you need to work on your trigger pull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

Well that sucks no triggers....just a tip and this is what I do when doing load development(but i shoot 3 shot groups until i find a load then go to 5 shot groups)I shoot in long range varmint silhouette matches so I want my first shot to count as well as the last....get a tee shirt or a towel wet and wrap your barrel with it to help cool it off faster after each round...shoot 1 round and cool your barrel make scope adjustments and shoot another round...this will help you find a cold bore load faster...also pay close attention to you tigger pull, try placing your finger deeper or shollower and either dry fire or get a snap cap and dry fire with your scope on target and watch closely to see if your cross moves off target when you squeeze the trigger. And heres a tough one...put a dime on the end of the barrel and dry fire if it falls off you need to work on your trigger pull.

---

I do practice the dry-fire and watch the cross hair on target for movement though I probably couldn't do the dime balance thing since I move the gun around alot to get lined up on target. I've got to start brewing up some reloads.

BTW--over on the Firing Line forum Dan Newberry posted a great fix--actually the American's trigger is one of the easiest to modify that I've ever worked on--took all of a few minutes--and it's vastly improved. I also decided to do a "complete" stock stiffener job (just like I do on my axis and 111's) and finished reinforcing the butt section of the stock. Gotta give ity a couple of days to thoroughly dry--but we'll see how she shoots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thermaler

BTW--over on the Firing Line forum Dan Newberry posted a great fix--actually the American's trigger is one of the easiest to modify that I've ever worked on--took all of a few minutes--and it's vastly improved. I also decided to do a "complete" stock stiffener job (just like I do on my axis and 111's) and finished reinforcing the butt section of the stock. Gotta give ity a couple of days to thoroughly dry--but we'll see how she shoots.

---

im interested to hear what you did to the trigger and how it works when you shoot it again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

im interested to hear what you did to the trigger and how it works when you shoot it again.

---

Here's Dan's description--nothing special, just a spring coil trim job. The Ruger trigger group and safety are very innovative--even if the action of the trigger isn't exactly pleasing in it's stock form. Their safety is the best I've ever used ergonomically-speaking. The trigger housing is extremely solid and pinned to the receiver with two roll pins--kinda like the way a gas block or sight post is pinned to the barrel on an AR. I thought about polishing the hammer/sear surfaces--but I'm going to see if they don't smooth off a bit with some use. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...75#post5914875

My Model 11 in .308 likes a dirty bore and hot loads also - 1,200 rounds since the last solvent patch.

I do run a dry boresnake through the barrel once after a trip to the range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thermaler

Here's Dan's description--nothing special, just a spring coil trim job. The Ruger trigger group and safety are very innovative--even if the action of the trigger isn't exactly pleasing in it's stock form. Their safety is the best I've ever used ergonomically-speaking. The trigger housing is extremely solid and pinned to the receiver with two roll pins--kinda like the way a gas block or sight post is pinned to the barrel on an AR. I thought about polishing the hammer/sear surfaces--but I'm going to see if they don't smooth off a bit with some use. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...75#post5914875

---

i did something similar to a S&W AR15 and it helped a lot but i ended up putting a different trigger in it...post up your thoughts after you test it out...i bet loosing a lb of pull will help a bunch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

i did something similar to a S&W AR15 and it helped a lot but i ended up putting a different trigger in it...post up your thoughts after you test it out...i bet loosing a lb of pull will help a bunch.

---

Epoxy should be suffuciently set by tomorrow--I'll send a few rounds through and let you know ; )

Yes--I've been moaning and groaning about all my problems with my new American 270--but today I think my "reconstructive surgery" efforts came together and I now have a rifle I'm proud to shoot! : )

Most importantly--the "impact wandering" has ended--in fact, even when switching between brands and sizes of ammo, the POI shifted very little. I can't say for sure what made the most difference; but after having shortened and polished the triggerpull spring and reinforced with epoxy the stock--it shoots vastly better. The last nine of ten shots of Winchester power points were all in or touching the bull's at 100--impressive mostly because it was very windy--20 mph with gusts stronger and I was literally shooting at a moving target. I'm a happily married man. LOL.

Quote:

---

Precisely my worry--no matter how well it shoots warmed up--which is pretty well since I have maybe 75 rounds down the tube--it's that one and only cold shot you get in the woods that is the most important for me.

---

If that is what is most important to you, then you should modify your shooting regimen. Instead of trying to determine how accurate three or five shot groups are take a tactical rifle approach. In that approach, groups are not the most important factor. Where that first shot out of a cold bore strikes the target is most important. I guess there are several methods you could use to tweak your rifle/scope combo to make that first shot almost a sure thing but I like the one used by Carlos Hathcock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wbm

If that is what is most important to you, then you should modify your shooting regimen. Instead of trying to determine how accurate three or five shot groups are take a tactical rifle approach. In that approach, groups are not the most important factor. Where that first shot out of a cold bore strikes the target is most important. I guess there are several methods you could use to tweak your rifle/scope combo to make that first shot almost a sure thing but I like the one used by Carlos Hathcock.

---

What was Carlos' technique?

Good deal glad you got it shooting now...small things make a big difference.

Carlos basically taught shooters how to know with a great deal of certainty where a "cold shot" was most likely to strike a target. The full regimen is given below. I doubt many hunters would go to this extreme but when life is on the line it seems to be a bit more appropriate than when deer hunting.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.p...seen#msg166216

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wbm

Carlos basically taught shooters how to know with a great deal of certainty where a "cold shot" was most likely to strike a target. The full regimen is given below. I doubt many hunters would go to this extreme but when life is on the line it seems to be a bit more appropriate than when deer hunting.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.p...seen#msg166216

---

Awesome read and to me makes complete sense, especially for hunting (and gives a bit of pause for thought for the dirty-bore advocates lol)--THANKS so much for that!