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I want to build a hunting rifle on a savage action with a 20 inch barrel. Would like to do a caliber not based on a 308 cartridge. This would be used for elk, moose, and deer . Would like to be able to use it out to 500 yards. Any suggestions that would work good with the 20 inch barrel .
Long or short action? Long action I'd say 300 win/ultra, 338 rum, 7mm, etc etc etc. Short action is a bit limited on heavier hitting rounds for moose and elk. I'd suggest wsm/Saum such as 300 wsm. With only 20 inches of barrel your powder burning efficiency is cut way back.
Which means you'd want a faster burning powder to achieve the most velocity.
Well I know you said not based on the .308 cartridge, but from the internet information I've seen, the .338 Federal is supposed to be very efficient and very similar to the 7 mag in performance with manageable recoil. It sounds like it would probably work well in a shorter rig and have enough oomph to do the job cleanly. You might check around and ask a couple of guys that have a .338 Federal what they think of them because I know there is often a pretty wide gap between information found on the internet and reality.
Wish I could give first hand info on such a setup but I haven't tried it. ... yet.
There does seem to be enough credible evidence to make me want to put something similar to that together as a "big stick, small package, whumper thumper carbine" one of these days.
I'm thinkin maybe an 18" or even 16" barrel though.
I have a 16" .308 for deer and it is amazing to hunt with and kills em dead as a sack of bricks at reasonable( realistic) ranges.
Looking for something that would have a fairly efficient burn in the short barrel. Short or long action would be ok.
Why would you eliminate so many good cartridges by not wanting a 308 based case?
I have two 308's, 260, 243, 22-250 now ,looking for something different. Actually was thinking of a 338-06 but was thinking a20 inch barrel might be a little short .
The only problem with having lots of good guns is that all but one have to stay home.
^^^ That's the only problem, though.
But as the old saying goes, Beware of the man with one gun.
Because he no doubt knows how to use it.
And thats important.
I'd go with a 7mm winchester short magnum.
Why not do a 375 Ruger on a long action?
Both the Hog Hunter and the Alaskan Hunter were or are available in 338 Winchester Mag and 20" barrels. No animal on the continent will tell you that you're barrel is too short.
And contrary to popular belief, unburned powder in a short barrel is a myth.
No doubt less true today than years back with the powders available today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
I never tried it but had been told that laying paper or a sheet on the ground
in front of the barrel would show the unburnt powder.
All of the powder sold by Hodgen at one time was surplus powder. And frankly even they
werent exactly sure what some of it was.
Not only that, but the question is, even if there are signs of unburnt powder exiting a short barrel, who is to say the same amount of unburnt powder wouldn't be leaving a longer barrel?Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
I suspect that, in some cases, long barrels will do not necessarily allow MORE powder to burn than will short barrels, even if some never burns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo85
I'm a bit off here. Either the 308's or the 260 is plenty for what you want to hunt; with a 20" pipe.
If you just need an excuse for another rifle, then take the Creedmoor, or 338 fed.
I'm a fan of the 35 whelen. I built a 375 whelen AI... not sure I gained anything but fireforming. To me they would be lacking at distance. The 338-06 deserves some thought.
^ did not know this, thanks for the info. Learn something new everyday. Was told in years past that higher capacity cases with slower powders needed optimal barrel length to completely burn but Havnt actually tested myself. I do know I get less velocity with shorter barrel but that's an obvious proven trade offQuote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
I know for years I heard and read that you had to have a 26" barrel for a 25-06. I do have first hand experience with that one and can say that a 22" sporter can be super duper accurate as well as kill deer dead as a box of rocks as far as I dare shoot at them.
I did a lot of research before cutting a .308 down to 16" for a little " compact carbine project. I was honestly a little reluctant at first. Knowing full well how much BS can be encountered on the internet and encountering mostly naysayers when I brought up the subject, I looked at the results that guys shooting striker pistols were getting with their even shorter barrels. Their results convinced me to go ahead.
I'll say my 16" .308 has become one of my favorite rigs and I'm so glad I did it. There isn't a whitetail in the woods that is going to tell me my barrel is too short. They just lay right down for a nap. Plenty accurate and plenty of range and whump and so much easier to carry and use.
Why I love my Remington 600's!Quote:
Originally Posted by big honkin jeep
No doubt its just me, but about the only reason i can think of for a short barrel like that
would be its easier moving it around inside a vehicle before you get it poked out the window.
Definatly a plus there, where say a 30" would be really tough. Especially in small vehicles like jeeps. lol
I own two 338 feds and a 338-06. It all depends on what you want to shoot out of it. Would I shoot my 338 fed to 500? Sure, but I'd rather use the 06.
One of my feds is the DPMS with an 18" barrel, and it shoots very well. It is a bit picky with hand loads due to the weight of the bolt and having to pick up another round, but I'm okay with that after you get a good load.
My other 338 fed is a Ruger Hawkeye with a 22" barrel. It shoots well under an inch, but I'm still fine tuning it for velocity.
That being said, in order to achieve good performance with the 338 cal bullets, you need to pick your poison. The fed shouldn't use anything over 200grs, and depending on the bullet, I wouldn't go past 225 unless you had a thinner jacketed 250 in the 338-06. My 338-06 shoots the 225 Accubonds at 2800fps over a stiff charge of rl17.
20" and 500 yards is a bit tricky. I would crack open a reloading manual and start there. You'll want something that burns at most 60gr of powder, preferably medium burning powder. That might help you decide a bit more then trying to say how will x caliber work.
If it's a hunting rifle, most shots will be taken dawn and dusk.. Throwing a big flame out the end of your muzzle probably won't be ideal, even if it does "burn" all the powder...
Just my thoughts on it, hope it clears the mud up a little bit..
Shm
How about 450 BM?
Wyo85,
i see you're from Wyoming. So I'm assuming the following
You want a compact rifle because the deer, elk and moose where you hunt are in high narly places, where the blow downs will rip the laces from those 300 dollar danners, let alone that 28" weatherby from your shoulder; hence the 20" barrel.
at times you wiil venture above the dark timber/tree line, so there is a chance that you will have a 500 shot. You want a little extra energy insurance, a little extra "Texas heart" shot insurance for that 500 yard elk or moose shot. A little "more" than a 308 case can give you.
Even though you want a 20" barrel, You don't want a pencil barrel. Why?. A 500 yd shot requires you to be steady, even when there is no wind. An 8-8.5 lb (with good optic) rifle will be steadier because when you're panting like Barney Fife at the sight of Marilyn Monroe, your panting won't shake the rifle as much as it would a 5.5 lb ultralight arms toy. And you don't want to be flinching in antiicipation of that crimson crescent moon about to appear just nigh of your eyebrow. Shaking, flinching, and successful 500 yd shots are as concurrent as Hillary Clinton's lips moving and truth's being told.
You are a meat hunter. So forget the 6.5 mm with the exploding bullet that , with high shoulder shots ,will remove the very ground from beneath bullwinkle's feet. Won't work too well to penetrate at angles often encountered in timber, let alone the aforementioned blow downs, where you will see most of your quarry. Many backstraps have escaped the fork this way.
You Want something that shoots relatively flat. Want something that won't kick the snot out of you. You want something efficient? Forget the 300 and 338 wm's, and probably 7mm mag and the wsms.
where does that leave us?
06 casing. 30 caliber. Match grade barrel. barnes 168 ttsx. (Yes it will expand sufficiently at 500 yds and it will penetrate farther than that 6x6 wants it to). With your 20 inch barrel, all your requirements are met. Nothing more, nothing less.
Danners must have gone way up in price since i bought my 2 pairs. lol
.284 Winchester.
I like the 30-06 idea. I'm not sure I'd go long action with a 20" barrel when the short action is an option. A short action would allow you to have, effectively, another 1" + of barrel while producing a rifle of the same overall length as a 20" barrelled long action.
What about the RCM's. I'm an -06 case guy through and through but the .338 RCM will approximate the .338-06 in a short action. There is a lot to like there.
In my 2/19 post, I forgot the assumption that you might step in grizzly dung in those Wyoming blow downs.
if so, pick it out of your danners with a spare 338-06 cartridge, instead of the originally suggested 30-06.
either will meet all other requirements, nothin mor, nothing less.
The classic
.375 H&H
great on all North American big game all the way through grizzly bears
Works great in a short barrel.
500 yd shot with a 375 h&h? that 20" barrel just grew to 24, with that 4" muzzle brake you'll need.
Personally I think he's mixing apples and oranges. A 500yd shot is NEVER easy, and under hunting conditions it gets worse. Longer barrels MAY not have powder still burning in them, but they WILL still have the pressure building velocity for the larger cartridges being mentioned. If one does ballistic charts, make sure you use a 20" barrel and ACTUAL velocities, not something from a book, since the various powders will vary velocities a LOT.
You could use a 45-70 for all you requested, but not the 500yds. Never hunted moose, but sure do not read of many folk taking shots at moose at that range, and of the folks that hunt elk, you always see long range guys going for every fps they can get, and that means long barrels.
To me, a short barreled cartridge is best kept to the 200-300yd limit. Good luck.