Apache VS Bison?

Im looking to get my hands on a stainless 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. I'm not sure is Apache is available to make a barrel for me at this point (I am waiting for a response back).

That being said, working on a budget here, I have contacted Bison who offered to make me a Stainless barrel shipped to my door for $235. He uses Green Mountain blanks. 2-4 week lead time. I love the price and wait time but I don't know about Green Mountain.

I was looking at the Apache sight and he seems to have two options. One being X Caliber and out of my price range. The other line does not mention who makes the blanks. Any ideas what blanks he uses? Recommendations of one over another?

Thanks guys, you have been awesome at answering questions. Also....anyone happen to have a good deal on a nice barrel sitting around? Worth a shot...

I believe that apache also uses some green mountan blanks. He definately builds a top notch product with both of his barrel lines.
Gunshack has mcgowen creedmore's in stock for $299. I like the mcgowens i have as well.

That's a tad bit more than what I was hoping to spend at this point. That being said,Gunshack looks to be out of stock anyhow.

Green Mountain is a decent barrel for a budget build but the extra $60 for a premium barrel like the Mcgowen is money well spent.

Well, after bouncing my head off the wall for loosing the ebay auction on an Apache barrel which was EXACTLY what I was after... I shot Jim at Apache an email asking if he would be willing to make me a barrel even though his website said he wasn't taking any orders. I was pleasantly surprised to receive an email back offering me the same exact barrel for my highest bid shipped out the next day...

Jim you are awesome!

Jim's the man!

Travistodd1,
Was it the 308 bull barrel? If so I was the one who ran it up to $225. I did win the varmint barrel though. Can't wait to put it on my new build

No, I was seriously watching that one however. I was after the stainless Creedmoor Bull Barrel.

That was a nice barrel.... I've thought about it but stuck to the 308 as I am already equipped to feed it. I wish you luck in your search. I'll report back on the Apache barrel when I get some results... He just posted another varmint 308 on Ebay....

Green Mountain blanks are excellent barrels that I've had experience with. Jim has machined all but one.
The one he didn't shoots lites out too.

If Green Mountain had a cooler name they might get a little more respect. :cool:
Most don't even give them a chance.

Hey Travis, Funny you mentioned that 6.5 Creedmoor. I was bidding on it too and lost out the last 30 sec. You think Jim might offer me the same deal you were able to get ? I did want to ask you long time shooters if that 1 to 9 twist was going to make a differents on how it shoots, from what I read the preferred twist on that caliber was a 1 to 8 twist would love to hear any advise you can give to be for my barrel section on my build. Thanks All

I'd go 8twist to ensure you can stabalize the 140's. Otherwise 120's and down will probably preform better.

I strongly recommend getting a hold of Jim if you want a barrel. I had a member reach out to me and advise Jim makes barrels for his business and has a 15 day to your door turn around. I am a little concerned about the 1 in 9 twist but have read some people swear by the 1 in 8.5 over the 1 in 8. Its still going to be a while until the rifle is up and going. I still have lots of parts I am still searching for...

I will also say, Bison Gun Works had offered to make the same barrel for me for $235 shipped. He offered to cut to what ever contour I asked up to a full 1" Bull Barrel. I just couldn't really find any information and decided to spend a few extra dollars and order from Apache.

I have not used BGW and won't make any comments towards them, but I have been shooting Jim's barrels for sometime now. Every barrel I've received has been easy to load for and extremely competitive for what I do.

I would say the reason I recommend the 8 twist is because if you ever get the opportunity to really stretch it out the extra stabalization provided will help out as it starts to reach that transonic point.

It can be a challenge for me to get out past 600 yards at times. Hopefully, I will get a spot set up a bit better soon. I have been thinking of joining the gun club near where I work but I don't get up there as often when not working.

I'm not the most patient guy. I ordered a 243 barrel from Apache 8 months ago and still waiting. Ordered a Shilen from Midway. Delivered in one week.
Ordered a 6.5 Grendel from Apache 2 months ago. Still waiting. Ordered same barrel from Bison. Delivered in 9 days.

Thanks for the feedback LoneWolf will stick with 1 to 8 twist.

I was in the same boat with Apache. I ordered my .243 in September and .338 Edge in February, and USPS says both should be arriving today. BUT both of those are X-caliber barrels. I ordered a .338 Federal standard barrel in November and got it maybe four weeks after.

My barrel arrived today and I couldn't be happier with the shipping time. Granted, I believe it was already in stock and ready to go, it still got here fast.

I have a bison 6.5 CM. I can't speak for the accuracy (waiting on mcmillan stock) but if it shoots as good as it looks it will be awesome. He was dead on with what he told me as far as lead time and was prompt in responding to all the emails I sent him.

Mine should be here next week. If I had been ok with 28 inch I would have had it. Seemed a bit much, 3 weeks to get it done though I had thought sooner.

Still think its a better way to do, all reports are Apache works is good and all good reports on the X-caliber. a fair amount of iffy reports (not universal but there) on the Criterions alternative that came up .

I think Jim and Dennis should quit dating and just get married (in a business sense of course)

Two good operations just need to be in the same building, Jim does barrel and Dennis gets them out!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RC20

Mine should be here next week. If I had been ok with 28 inch I would have had it. Seemed a bit much, 3 weeks to get it done though I had thought sooner.

Still think its a better way to do, all reports are Apache works is good and all good reports on the X-caliber. a fair amount of iffy reports (not universal but there) on the Criterions alternative that came up .

I think Jim and Dennis should quit dating and just get married (in a business sense of course)

Two good operations just need to be in the same building, Jim does barrel and Dennis gets them out!

---

I don't know really how to answer this, but your last sentence is almost hitting the nail on the head. In fact it might be directly on the head of the nail.

We have the prenuptial about 98% worked out, so what you see on the website is all facts.

I can assure all Jim is trying to get all the orders out that are current.

Everyone will be hearing from Jim shortly. Apache Gun Works will be stronger than ever, just give him a few more days.

Several have sent PM's or emails to me. I am answering them the best I can, please be assured of this. But please, don't flood me with messages on current orders with Jim. I will still have to talk to him which takes away time from his machine shop. Orders getting ready depend on him being in his shop. It should be straighten out realistically within 90 days. I am sure it will be shorter than 90 days, but I want to give plenty time for him to catch up.

Jim is a great person and a great machinist. You will be hearing from him.

Dennis

Yea it was said a bit tongue in cheek.

My wife is an artist and I understand the problem, she is very good artist, not a good business person.

Add in time taken from art work means less or no product and visa versa (no sales).

tough one to deal with and it sound like an outstanding combination when you guys get it worked out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RC20

Yea it was said a bit tongue in cheek.

My wife is an artist and I understand the problem, she is very good artist, not a good business person.

Add in time taken from art work means less or no product and visa versa (no sales).

tough one to deal with and it sound like an outstanding combination when you guys get it worked out.

---

Thanks for the reassuring words. And by the way, it is worked out.

The website is live and current as we speak, FYI. And it's only going to get better.

Dennis

Jim does great work and I highly reccomend his barrels. for the level of work and attention to detail at his cost he can't be beat. I think the whole remote control society we live in is to blame. gotta have it now which is fine for those who are willing to cheat themselves for instant gratification....

Yes. Jim is all that and more. No question.

If I were in a hurry, and needed a hunting barrel, I would not hesitate even a moment to go with Bison.

What is the industry standard on wait times? 3,4,-6,7 months?
I have only ordered one "semi custom barrel" just want to make sure I have the correct expectation.
Ordered a .358win from Apache in December.

^^^^ It's more complicated than that.

Most gunsmiths (such as Apache) that build off of blanks supplied by bigger operations are at the mercy of the blank makers. The blanks are made in batches and, depending upon demand, get backed up at times. Someone like Apache might have 15 different varieties of blanks he is waiting for at any given time. He takes orders, they get backlogged and he keeps busy building the barrels he can get the blanks for. Once he falls behind, it is difficult to catch up. Sometimes, I am sure (but I don't know for certain), a specific blank might come available but he does not know about it in time to place the order before it's sold out again. (I am only speculating here, but I have been deeply involved in this barrel making process long enough to say that's what can happen).

The "big boys" don't necessarily have that exact problem, but they do make everything in batches and so do the raw material providers. Things get backed up. No one individual is to blame. Then there's the problem of cash flow, at times, I am sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dennis

I don't know really how to answer this, but your last sentence is almost hitting the nail on the head. In fact it might be directly on the head of the nail.

We have the prenuptial about 98% worked out, so what you see on the website is all facts.

I can assure all Jim is trying to get all the orders out that are current.

Everyone will be hearing from Jim shortly. Apache Gun Works will be stronger than ever, just give him a few more days.

Several have sent PM's or emails to me. I am answering them the best I can, please be assured of this. But please, don't flood me with messages on current orders with Jim. I will still have to talk to him which takes away time from his machine shop. Orders getting ready depend on him being in his shop. It should be straighten out realistically within 90 days. I am sure it will be shorter than 90 days, but I want to give plenty time for him to catch up.

Jim is a great person and a great machinist. You will be hearing from him.

Dennis

---

Jim must have went from a manual lathe to a CNC machine to be cranking barrels out that fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jsthntn247

Jim must have went from a manual lathe to a CNC machine to be cranking barrels out that fast.

---

Jim has a great problem and he is spending many hours on the phone, computer, and then tries to get a few hours in his shop to fill the orders.

This should pretty well explain the merger.

We have a great production plan worked out, Inventory will be our biggest concern and it will be watched and stocked as business demands. Jim is going to focus on production and quality. I definitely will say "Quality" is his biggest concern, one of the main reasons I believe in Jim.

I spoke with Jim at length this evening, you will be hearing from him soon.

He is catching up,

Dennis

Good deal, I like seeing something come together that is a benefit not only to the two parties involved but we get a great resource as well.


Guys: My barrel is on the way and I am on primers and powder now.

Quote:

---

Jim does great work and I highly reccomend his barrels. for the level of work and attention to detail at his cost he can't be beat. I think the whole remote control society we live in is to blame. gotta have it now which is fine for those who are willing to cheat themselves for instant gratification....

---

While that may be true, it was not for me. I have a wait time on a Bull 30-06 of another 3 weeks at best and as much as 5 weeks. I am ok with that, would like it now of course but that's just a rare combo (this was before I discovered Dennis and Jim so I am not double dating!)

In the meantime it occurred to me that I could put a 308 barrel on the 111 and get a handle on the accuracy fall off on the 12FV (I don't want to disassemble it as its still under a year old, that said Savage does not seem to be too excited about anything other than 3 shot groups and the barrel is ok, just not as good as it was nor what I want)

So when I went looking for the 308 NSS had a Criterion, but Dennis responded first and in the meantime I had read good things about him, X-Caliber and Jims work. It seems like both a great combination and my future source for barrels and I can plan further in advance (the project gun came up for what I wanted at a price that suited much sooner than I expected)

I complicated things by wanting a 26 inch and that was a mistake on my part.

I did not get that I was throwing a complication into their situation where Jim is overloaded and balancing 55 barrels and trying to be the business end as that's what pays the bills.

We worked it out, I will take more than my share of responsibly on that, Dennis and Jim obviously are doing all they can and as good, both recognizing where they were and are and are doing something about it.

What I do appreciate form a mechanics/technician standpoint is that there is no compromise on the quality. Its ****ed easy to say screw it to meet the short term. To twist Napoleon around, Quality has a quantity all of its own. Been there, done that, I knew it, I was not in control and did not like it but there is always a consequences .

Once your reputation is shot (bad pun intended) you can't get it back fully, sometimes not at all.

Ergo, while Criterion puts out mostly good barrels, they have enough poor ones that its not my first choice. McGowan seems to be the same. X-caliber seems to be really solid in quality.

SO, while a bit frustrated, I realized what I had done and I admire Jims adherence to sticking to his barrels (as it were) and I appreciate Dennis efforts in dealing with it.

They are now my first, second and third choice for future needs.

I have a Green Mountain barrel in 338-06 turned down by Jim at Bison Gun Works, and it's a shooter for sure. I can put three 225gr Accubonds at half an inch at 100 yards, and under 2" @ 300 yards no problem. He did a heck of a job on our, and he built me a 6mm BR x-caliber heavy Palma contoured that I just screwed onto another action for the misses. Still waiting on a stock on that one, so no telling how it will fire yet. He got the 6mm to my front door in two weeks from payment.

I ordered a 260 X cal back in late March. In that time, I felt it important to communicate with Jimmy personally to adjust my order. It was done far in advance as to not make things more complicated for him. Ive not e-mailed or spoken to him since. I feel theres no need to. I was fully aware of wait times. With that said, if the wait time becomes 4-5 months?...then communication between me the consumer and him the seller is justifiably called for.
Ive been a certified tech for the Ford Motor Company for 40 years. Ive been over hauling Ford Transmissions since 1976. If its one thing that Ive learned? communication and updates on status is the back bone to any successful business.
Im at the mercy of The Ford Motors Company's ability to get me the parts needed to complete the repair on any given customers vehicle. When that doesn't happen in a timely manner?......I become back logged quickly. I may have upwards of 3-4 transmssions laying on work benches in pieces. the nightmare begins, such that of Jimmy not getting blanks on time.
Bottom line?.......its a business. Im aware of the fact that the more time JImmies on the net answering questions about his product, the less time on his machines which means more wait time for us the consumer.
Its all about communication.
In the mean time, Im waiting on my barrel. No harm, no foul. Ive got dozens of other rifles to play with in the mean time.

I worked with Dennis as the barrel was through him, that was better as he bird dogs the situation as needed but leaves Jim to do his work.

I think they are on the right track with making that formal.

The 308 barrel came in and looks really good. Two range sessions, working in the 1/2 to 3/4 MOA area and believe any variance is me. i.e. I suspect the barrel is capable of sub 1/2, I just need to get the trigger let off correct and still playing with powders, bullets and COAL

Had Jim make me a 338 federal barrel a while back and have just now really started playing with it. (disclaimer) It is on a DPMS lower (AR hence the disclaimer) and built just for hog hunting. Finally took it out the other night and make a great shot on a 200lb sow. After thinking about it i realized the great neck shot was bad cause i was aiming at the shoulder. Started wondering is it the gun the scope or the load. Well i took the ATN X-sight off and put a Sightron Slll on and it printed the load like a shotgun. guess i got in a hurry when i started load work. Changed the load from BLC-2 over to a rather light charge of IMR-4064 and started printing 1/2-3/4 inch groups at 130 yards. My target is set at 130 due to available shade. Reformed 7.62x51 WCC 06 brass with S&B LRM primers 40gr IMR-4064 under 225gr SST and a nice crimp from a LFC die. Did not ask Jim what barrel maker he used but belive this is a Green mountain barrel. Doesn't really matter if it is Billy Joe Jim Bob's car axle with groups like that out of a big bore AR. Jim does good work and even the cheaper barrel blanks will shoot when fed the right ammo.

I have a DPMS 338 Fed and a Ruger m77 in 338 Fed all also. I absolutely love the cartridge. I haven't had much luck with 225gr slugs unless they are moving around 2450 or so. I can push the 200gr hot-cor around 2675-2725 depending on powder used, and I've started working on the 180gr Accubonds for the bolt gun. Just trying to figure out seating depth using Alliant Varmint powder for around 2825, low es. Interesting working with that combination. I've done lots of testing with different loads, it's such a great shooter.

SHM

I'll throw my two cents in. Purchased a 223 barrel from Bison and couldn't be happier. It's a 7 twist wylde for shooting 80gr amax. Built it around an axis for a budget plinker to tide me over until I get my 308 done. I spent plenty of time talking to Dennis and others on here and barrels seem to be a lot like women, they all like to be treated in there own special way, some last and others dont, some are expensive and some not. I will say that I'm so impressed with accuracy of the Bison barrel that I'm contemplating a 6.5 build around one.

Five shots with the Bison built 6mm BR I made for the wife. I know where I'll be headed back next barrel I need. X-cal blank, 8 twist.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...8e84005f67.jpg

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

what stock is on your 6br

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chetc

what stock is on your 6br

Chet

---

A Richard's Microfit with whidden v block. Marksmen style with 3" fore end. Devcon used for the epoxy.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

any pics of your stock

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chetc

any pics of your stock

Chet

---

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...32e84d3ba1.jpg

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk