Has anyone heard of Obama issuing an executive order to stop all in home gunsmith work by unlicensed gunsmiths?
If you had, please pass that information along to me.
Dennis
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Has anyone heard of Obama issuing an executive order to stop all in home gunsmith work by unlicensed gunsmiths?
If you had, please pass that information along to me.
Dennis
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/just...e-gun-control/
THIS IS IT, LET ME KNOW YOUR THOUGHT ON THIS AND HOW IF AFFECTS US.
DENNIS
This idea originally came about several years ago - I'm thinking it was after Obama couldn't get the new gun ban passed after Sandy Hook. Naturally it was heavily objected to at that time, and they didn't pursue it then because it would have been pushing the limit a little further than they thought they could get away with. Now that Obama's in his home stretch he clearly doesn't care and is willing to blatantly exceed his power as he knows any attempt by Congress to stop it or impeach him would be a waste of time since he only has a few months left in office.
Funny thing is I hadn't heard anything about it until this thread, and looking around there's been no mention of it on any of the major news networks, not even Fox News. Between the lead-in to the DNC and the terror attacks in Germany it just got lost in the shuffle with the media. The only stories I've seen are the initial statement by the NRA-ILA and a couple other's on firearms related sites that essentially reiterated and expanded upon the NRA's statement on the matter.
Will be interesting to see if Congress or the NRA file suit on this.
This is the third forum I have seen this linked on today, but prior to that I hadn't seen anything on it either. I don't think it will put anyone out of business IF Hillary does not get elected. I have nothing to back this up, but I have a feeling that Trump might just walk into office IF he gets elected and repeal number by number all of Obama's EOs simply as an FU to Obama. If anything my hopes are he will tie up the .gov with enough work chasing actual bad guys that they have no ability to enforce anything.
Here's the thing to consider:
Having put this into effect, assuming it took effect immediately, 99.9% of the gunsmiths in the country are now operating in violation and could face stiff penalties. Basically anything that requires any kind of machining (threading a muzzle, drilling and tapping, etc) or will improve accuracy is now deemed manufacturing and requires them to pay the $2,250 extortion fee to the Dept. of State for the DDTC permit. Stock making is specifically stated as falling under this new interpretation, so Boyds and everyone else is going to have to comply. Presumably all the barrel makers will need to comply as well. Even something as simple as installing the 38 Spl. bolt lift mod would necessitate getting the permit if you shorten the BAS.
The info below is from the following Dept. of State document:
http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/A...Publish%29.pdf
As you can see, the interpretation is extremely vague and open-ended as to what is deemed manufacturing and what isn't.Quote:
1. Registration not Required – Not Manufacturing:
In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is not required because the following activities do not meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:
a) Occasional assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining;
b) Firearm repairs involving one-for-one drop-in replacement parts that do not require any cutting, drilling, or machining for installation;
c) Repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation;
d) Hydrographic paint or Cerakote application or bluing treatments for a firearm;
e) Attachment of accessories to a completed firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining — such as attaching a scope, sling, or light to existing mounts or hooks, or attaching a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle brake, or similar item to a pre-threaded muzzle;
f) Cosmetic additions and alterations (including engraving) that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation beyond its original capabilities;
g) Machining new dovetails or drilling and tapping new holes for the installation of sights which do not improve the accuracy or operation of the firearm beyond its original capabilities; and
h) Manual loading or reloading of ammunition of .50 caliber or smaller.
Activities limited to the domestic sale or resale of firearms, the occasional assembly of firearms without drilling, cutting, or machining, and/or specific gunsmithing activities that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operations of the firearm beyond its original capabilities (as described above) are not manufacturing within the context of the ITAR. If you are not manufacturing, exporting, temporarily importing or brokering defense articles or services, you are not required to register with DDTC.
2. Registration Required – Manufacturing:
In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is required because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:
a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability of assembled or repaired firearms;
b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;
c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);
d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or reloading of ammunition;
e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;
f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;
g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and
h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.
3. Registration Required – Other than Manufacturing:
a) Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may constitute the export of a defense service (see 22 CFR § 120.9) and require ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC; and
b) Exporting a firearm or any other item on the USML requires ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC
For example: Since most rifles today don't come with open sights installed, installing a scope would dramatically improve the accuracy of the rifle and thus, under this interpretation, warrant such an act as requiring the DDTC permit - even though they say mounting a scope doesn't require said permit.
Also, what does "Occasionally" mean in terms of assembling of parts or kits? Once a week? Once a month? Once a year? Once in a lifetime?
What strikes me as odd is that most of these politicians are war mongers and the blood of hundred of thousands is on their hands but if their sweeping gun control laws will stop one death then it is a good deed.
I guess with 3a above we're going to have to start asking people what country they're from before we can offer any assistance or advice on how to repair or upgrade their rifle here.
Who actually falls under ITAR and DDTC? I have never accepted a penny for the Gunfawkery I tinker with. Do you think the back yard guy falls under this jurisdiction? They way I read it is only businesses. Which might effect you MrFurious, but not a nonbusiness related member. If I tell someone in New zealand how to accurize a Savage and don't receive a penny then I don't think it would apply. I'm not a lawyer and above statement is just off the cuff thinking.
Another reason I don't think it would put many out of business is typically I have found Mom and pop GS are quite a bit cheaper then big box smiths. So if a mom and pop does 100 orders that fall under this reg it will cost $22.50 more passed to the customer. Which may hurt sells a little, but like the local guy I use I like his work and I'd pay the extra $22.50, because it's still a hell of a lot cheaper then sending it off. Also almost all mom and pops just have the GS service as an additional function provided in a LGS.
To me this just feels like another back door tax.
No, you don't have to be a business. If you thread the barrel on your rifle yourself, you'd engaged in manufacturing based on their redefined definition and thus are subject to needing to purchase their permit. They make no statement anywhere about it having to be for sale or for profit. If you do any cutting, drilling or machining it's manufacturing - period. How they could ever enforce it on an individual level like that is another matter, but that's how it's written. As for licensed gunsmiths, the BATF has a nice database listing them all that they can share with State.
So why that specific language? Cutting, drilling or machining? Well, I guarantee you it has everything to do with 80% lower receivers. 80% receivers were always a low volume oddity until a few years ago when Polymer80 Inc. and ARES Armory decided to rile up the BATF by exploiting the loophole and making a big push with poly 80% lowers. Naturally this resulted in a huge boom in 80% receiver sales and in turn it got government looking into how they could put a stop to it. This new definition will do just that - and then some. Who's going to spend $2,250 on a permit to finish out an 80% lower when they can buy an Anderson finished lower for $50-60?
Now the real question is this: Are they actually going to issue these permits, or will they make up any excuse they can not to issue them?
As for putting smith's out of business, that will really depend on how much red tape is associated with DDTC and ITAR. Paying for the permit is one thing, having to pay an attorney (or several) to continually make sure you're in compliance with all the rules and regulations is another. What kind of additional record keeping is required? What or how many forms will need to be filled out/submitted for items made or services performed? This is where it could start getting to be more hassle than it's worth, which may just be what Obama's hoping many decide.
It will be a moot point anyway if Clinton gets elected. Rewriting the constitution will be complete as soon as she appoints (her) choices
on the supreme court. So keeping what we have should be a higher priority for us than building new ones.
Look at all the laws that were put in place the last 30 years. They don't have the manpower to enforce these laws, nor do they have the manpower to enforce this one.Quote:
Now the real question is this: Are they actually going to issue these permits, or will they make up any excuse they can not to issue them?
When they required all school teachers be fingerprinted and their background checked before being qualified for the job, well, it took our government years to acquire the equipment and personnel to get the job done.
I have talked to several politicians, and "MOST" are not aware their are gun related sports active in this country. But their making laws affecting it.
I have explained to them we are a very disciplined group of people who love our sport, and in no way are we associated with any violence. I actually asked one how he would like it if he were judged by his piers and put into the same group. I received a very strange look from this person, but I am tired of it.
JMO, Dennis
Jim, How does this affect Savage shooters with regards to information being on an open forum. Looks like 3a could be interpreted to forcing all gun forums that discuss repair to become registration only and membership requiring verification of US residency.
That's the big question.
I thought this idea had come up previously and I was right - Obama talked about doing it a little over a year ago. Here's a few video's from back then that discussed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwXflY-UmNA
https://youtu.be/Xk5PC30xwys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ef4cVvN26o
IIRC when this came up last year there was such a backlash against it not only from pro-2nd Amendment groups, but also the ACLU and other civil rights groups because it's an attack on both the 1st and 2nd Amendments. I can't imagine this not being challenged in court on the 1st Amendment grounds alone. Time will tell I guess.
In the meantime, I guess I'll be looking for a new job...
Can you restrict membership to US residents until it gets sorted out?
Nope, because in their infinite wisdom, ICANN (the organization that is responsible for issuing I.P. addresses) never had the foresight to set it up like phone numbers with country codes. As such the IP addy 219.0.0.001-100 could be in the U.S. and 219.0.0.100-199 could be in China and 219.0.0.200-299 could be in France and so on. And even it it were organized with a country code, all one would have to do is route through a proxy server in the U.S. to get around their country being blocked.
What really amazes me is how quiet everyone is on this, especially the NRA and Gun Owners of America. The NRA put out a brief statement on Wednesday and that's it. Nothing for six days after it was signed, and nothing more in the four days since.
I looked into this issue earlier this year. Was instructed to send an overnight letter to them stating specifically what I intend to do and ask if it requires the registration. I never heard back from anyone.
It would destroy the gun smithing industry, if not the whole industry. I truly believe it's grounds for INSURRECTION.
So be it. You think I am kidding?
This kind of garbage HAS to STOP. NOW!
Ask yourself this: How does a new startup gunsmith even begin to be able to afford such a fee? It's NOTHING to the big boys, but absurdly expensive for the new guy. Completely contrary to principals of free enterprise and capitalism.
And it isn't limited to the gun industry, either. It's everywhere. We MUST object, under principal, or the whole country is DOOMED!
Suppose you "invent" a new and improved barrel nut... or trigger or spring... You won't be able to make it or sell it without first registering and paying the current fee of $2,500. If we accept this, then then what's to stop them from raising the fee to $5,000? NOTHING. and anyone who can afford $2,500 can afford $5,000 just as easily. I am telling you all, this is UNCONSCIENABLE and should have us all up in arms. LITERALLY!
Uh, oh... I'm getting riled up!
If it means martial law, I would rather he declare it NOW, while we still have our arms and ammo to defend ourselves with.
Suppose, for example, our good friend who started making custom pre-fit barrels out of his garage a few years ago was required then, to pay this fee or risk going to prison? Do you think he would have been able to start his small business and grow it into a small but viable, honorable and worthy business and serve us the way he has been? Heck, no, he wouldn't have. And who do you think has the most to gain from these kind of regulations? The big, existing companies. What they don't recognize, though, is how much their success depends, ultimately, on the little guy. By the time they do wake up and realize it, it will be too late for EVERYONE.
I agree with everything you said but it has to be a movement.
I understand.
I am saying we have to WAKE UP! Obama has done this all over the place, and Hillary will do the same. If everyone who get's bumped out of their little niche business or who is prevented from starting a niche business remains silent and unmotivated to act, then EVERYONE will be affected eventually.
It's hard to explain, but let me offer one more simple example I bet no one here is aware of...
Obama's Department of Labor did the same thing to ALL of us earlier this year. In brief, the DOL decided you, I mean YOU, cannot buy insurance or retirement products for your IRA if the salesman or financial planner that offers/recommends it earns a commission from the deal. I ask you, what right does the Department of Labor have to interfere with your relationship with your financial planner or insurance agent? NONE! But they did it just the same. Its only one of MANY examples and the people that think the way he does has every intention of managing your lives in EVERY matter possible, beyond your imagining, I assure you.
Furthermore, start a "MOVEMENT" and see how quickly you get added to the "DO NOT FLY LIST", or, soon to be known as the"DO NOT BUY GUNS LIST". or, "THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION LIST".
Oh, Foxx, you are being ridiculous!
Next thing you is claim the IRS will target conservative-leaning Non-Profits so as to stifle them and their disagreeable agendas...
or the Secretary of State will willfully thwart the Freedom of Information Act and then be elected to the highest office in the land and, in fact, the world.
Before anyone else gets their boxers in a knot over this lets first try to get some clarification and more information before calling for a revolution. I can't find a single mention of it on GOA's website or the NSSF's website, and there's just the one statement from the NRA-ILA thus far. Everything else I've seen has just been a proliferation of the NRA-ILA's statement. Even this piece from Prince Law Offices, P.C. basically says the same thing the NRA-ILA statement does without going into much more detail on who is and isn't required to register.
This write up from Modern Rifleman offers a little more information in the third paragraph from the bottom regarding individuals threading their own barrels, but is it factual or presumed? He gives no reference to where that info came from or where it's stated.
So far the best Q&A I've found on this was over at 6mmBR.com in the comments to their post.
I've still yet to find anything pertaining to the language in 3a regarding "assisting in the design, development or repair of a firearm" and any/all forms of publishing.
https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/complia...ufacturers.pdf
This document from the state department clearly states that barrel makers and smiths who install barrels on an existing firearm must be registered and pay the fee.
Seeking clarification earlier this year, I sent an email requesting guidance and was told I could not convert a bolt action .308 to 450BM and sell it under a Class 7 manufacturer's license without first registering with the State Department and paying the fee. I was then invited to seek formal, written response from DOS by detailing my exact intentions, which I did, but was never responded to.
I just got off the phone with a representative from the State Department's "Response Team" (phone number listed at the bottom of their document sited above).
I was told they rec'd my inquiry, along with hundreds of others, and I can expect a response soon. From what I could gather, they have "bitten-off more than they can chew" with these regulations. They want to supervise EVERY gun manufacturer so as to determine whether they are making guns that threaten the safety of the American people but cannot afford to do so without charging high registration fees such as this. When in reality, it does not matter WHO builds AR-15's and sells them to a potential terrorist. If the AR-15 is a lawful firearm, and it ends up in the hands of someone hell-bent on destruction, it's gonna get done whether the firearm was assembled/manufactured in my garage or Bushmaster's factory.
I see this has made it here now......this story is spreading like wildfire. It's going to affect me and my business in a big way. If it isn't stopped, I will probably discontinue my business completely. I'll wrap up all of my orders then shut everything down. Then I will try to get on S.S. disability. I don't have any other choices left to me.
Most of the old timers know my opinion on this stuff and what I think about our government from the old days of the forum. All I can really say......it's become reality now. I'm giving it until I see how this plays out as well as how the election turns out.....then I will have to make a decision. Right now, the NRA is aware of it, my senators and congressman have been made aware of it......they are the only ones that have enough stroke to do anything about this. If they let this go........and it becomes law...........I'm done. I'm sure there are a LOT of small gun related businesses that are in the same boat.
It's the old "End-around" play...
The liberals will do ANYTHING they can to undermine the firearm industry and drive people out of business, no matter how small, large or inconsequential they are to the stated issue of trying to protect the American citizen. If you hate guns, there is no rational or persuasive argument against doing what they are doing. Once that is done, our entire way of life is destroyed because the common citizen will not have the means to defend himself and the rest of his countrymen against tyranny. That is FACT, folks, not an opinion.
Guys, listen to me, PLEASE.
I do not mean to make fun of or pick on Apache with the following information I will share with you all. I simply want you to appreciate the situation for what it is. For example...
I spoke with Apache about this this past February. He is clearly a very reasonable and level headed guy. He represents the best of our hobby and industry. But when I raised the issue with him, he really thought I was being ridiculous and maybe even paranoid. I clearly must have misunderstood the situation. In no way would these regulations affect his business or mine. He tried to reason with me and reassure me that I was mistaken. I wanted to trust his judgment, I truly did, because the ramifications and implications of MY interpretation of the situation was so earth shattering. Well, as it turns out, I was right. IF they continue to move forward with this interpretation of their responsibilities at the State Department, and they certainly say they are, it is the beginning of the end. And, even if Trump is elected and he overturns this on his first day in office, the damage will be done. Jim will not likely be back in business. Nor will I. Who cares? YOU should care.
PLEASE speek up! PLEASE call your congressmen and senators. This is REAL.
What Norm is telling you is absolutely true!!! I didn't think much of this when he brought it up. I really didn't think this administration would really be this stupid. I did see how it was setting up for a future version of this. My hope was that we would be able to stop this through the election processes........seems I was seriously wrong at this point.
I just didn't think it would happen anywhere near this soon. I was thinking this would take several years to implement this....over multiple administrations. It seems they are moving much faster than I anticipated.
Guys...I'm telling you, you need to get on the horn with you governmental representatives and make your voices heard. The "fundamental changes" this regime is making are doing some very serious damages.
Which EO is this specifically I was trying to find the actual order to read the order. https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...gnment-certain
I cant find the order, either. All i can find and all i have discussed with the State Department is their regulations as spelled out in the link i posted about 5 up from here. #32
Prior to the last presidential election, Bruce Baer told me that if the president was reelected, he and most other gunsmiths would be forced out of business.
Is this what you're looking for?
https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/complia...ufacturers.pdf
Lot's of discussions on this here too: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...-more.3906517/
No I am looking for a specific EO. This is the one signed on the 22cd: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...gnment-certain, but it reads like greek to me.
I dont think thats the one we are talking about. It appears to me, at this point, the State Department is not relying on an EO. I could be wrong, however
Well, this has me very concerned as well and really in a bind as how to move forward. I am a new class 07 FFL holder, submitted my paper work in December and received my License the first part of April of this year. I was encouraged by the BATF that what I was wanting to do would require the 07 license, (installing brakes and rebarreling Rifles) along with other common gunsmithing such as bedding jobs and what not. I was told at my inspection that I would not be required for the ITAR registration as long as I worked on owner supplied actions and parts and thats what I have been doing for the last few months. I have always been a gun nut and have always worked on all my own stuff and enjoy it a lot. I decided to take the next step because I was always being asked to do this or that by people when I was at the range. I figured what the heck and take this to the next level and make this a supplemental income that I enjoy doing. Well long story short I am now about 8 grand in debt with a new lathe and tooling plus busniess start up costs and now this ruling comes down from on high and has my head spinning on what to do. Do I cut my losses and run? Try to sell my lathe and tooling and recoup some of my debt or stick it out and hope to absorb the cost of doing business and be marginally successful. I am not trying to get rich and I know gunsmithing is not generally a large money making endeavor I am just trying to have fun and make a little play money in the process.
Stomp442,
This may answer what you're wanting to know....
https://blog.princelaw.com/2012/08/1...manufacturers/
Does that not suggest that home gunsmithing for one's own collection would be exempt, since the home hobby gunsmith is not soliciting or receiving any work from the public?Quote:
In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is not required because the following activities do not meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:
If this is an Executive order the White house is unaware.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...ecutive-orders
Not a presidential executive order. It's an action taken by faceless and soulless bureaucrats in the State Dept. to fiddle a regulatory definition. Although they are now looking up at Obama with shining faces, saying, "Did do good, Oh Emperor Obama. Do I get a reward?"
Guys.....please don't let this slide off into some kind of political slamming......keep it on topic and informative......and as respectful as possible. It's too important to get it locked up.
Wow! So yeah sounds like I pay the Ransom to play or close up shop and quit. No middle ground what so ever for a small shop.