Primer failure.....What to do?

SO here goes. I loaded 200 rounds of .270 for this years shin-dig in KY so my brothers and cousin would have plenty of ammo to practice with (all three novice shooters). 3 different .270's. They all shot the ammo a little over 1MOA. The problem comes in when we got to one box of 50. Unfourtunately we discovered the problem after my brother missed a chance at a buck and doe. Two rounds in a row FTF. Primers dinted plenty. Well at this point I'm not real happy so I grab the rifle and 5 rounds from the box and go out 3 more of the 5 FTF. I grab my middle brothers .270 same story 4 of 5 FTF. I grab my cousins .270 2 of 5 FTF. I get all the guys on line and grab 15 rounds from a different box and all 15 go off. I grab 15 more from another box all 15 go off. SO I am assuming I got a crap pack of CCI LR primers. How do I go about contacting CCI on this. I got a bunch of FTF rounds sitting in a box with 19 more that I haven't tried to fire. Anyone else run into this? Just to clarify these where it individual 50 primers that come in the clear plastic wrapper.

Edit: Had to cool off a bit. Thought I had gotten past being mad, but obviously not.

Questions

Was all the ammunition loaded with CCI primers?

Where different brands of cases used?

Where all the cases sized the same way?

Were all the primers seated the same way.

If everything was uniform then email them at their CCI website and tell them the problem. Your problem will be identifying the lot number and date of manufacture.

Good luck, years ago I had some Remington primers that were recalled that ruptured at the edge and scored my bolt face. Remington replaced the brick of primers and replaced the rifles bolt for free.

I hope some of the guys that are new to reloading on this website are paying attention. Ed knows how to get to the bottom of things. Troubleshooting 101. Class is in session.

I'm curious to know what the primers were seated with.


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DON'T BLAME THE PRIMERS without double checking first!! After loading/shooting maybe 5000 + CCI primers over the years and NEVER having a problem, I would be looking at the OAL of the brass rather than bad primers. Brass too short for the chamber, (shoulders pushed back too far) firing pin strikes the primer and the case is pushed forward in the chamber. FTF and slight dent from the firing pin. Or, maybe the primer pockets cut too deep or the primer not seated all the way. If you're sure you got bad primers, push a few that FTF out of the case and smack them with a hammer. Go from there. Sounds like more investigating is needed.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

I'm curious to know what the primers were seated with.


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RCBS Hand primer same I have used for every round I ever loaded

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Questions

Was all the ammunition loaded with CCI primers?
Yep 4 new in the plastic boxes of CCI

Where different brands of cases used?
No everything was loaded in Federal Cases

Where all the cases sized the same way?

All Full length sized using Lee full length die

Were all the primers seated the same way.
Yes RCBS hand Primer
If everything was uniform then email them at their CCI website and tell them the problem. Your problem will be identifying the lot number and date of manufacture.
I think I still have the empty boxes.
Good luck, years ago I had some Remington primers that were recalled that ruptured at the edge and scored my bolt face. Remington replaced the brick of primers and replaced the rifles bolt for free.

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Thanks for the input guys. If I screwed something up I want to know what it was. But I used all the same components, because I wanted them all to shoot the same and minimize any inconsistencies I could control.

I'm with norcalmikie...I've shot at least 10k CCIs and they are the only primer I've never had a FTF with and why I'm curious about what the primers were seated with.


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Well that answers that...only thing left is the hammer test.


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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie

DON'T BLAME THE PRIMERS without double checking first!! After loading/shooting maybe 5000 + CCI primers over the years and NEVER having a problem, I would be looking at the OAL of the brass rather than bad primers. Brass too short for the chamber, (shoulders pushed back too far) firing pin strikes the primer and the case is pushed forward in the chamber. FTF and slight dent from the firing pin. Or, maybe the primer pockets cut too deep or the primer not seated all the way. If you're sure you got bad primers, push a few that FTF out of the case and smack them with a hammer. Go from there. Sounds like more investigating is needed.

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I use CCI primers for that exact reason. I have never had an issue with them. Which is why I fired them from three different rifles as soon as I found the issue to see if I had a problem with firing pin depth or light stike. I'll definitely go back and double check all of my notes, but every step was done one at a time to each of 200 rounds and the only issues came from this one box of 50. I use a comparator to seat to consistent Ogive within +/-.001". All were trimmed to same length. All sized with same die. All pains-takingly loaded with powder to .1g. Of the other 150 rounds loaded over half of each box has been fired without a single FTF.

Another question; did you measure how much you bumped back the shoulder of the case when resizing? If you are resizing for multiple chambers (in multiple rifles), you may be setting the shoulder back too far, and creating too much head space for the firing pin to work reliably. I see you're using an OAL gage, are you using a headspace gage too?

To test this, pull down one of the FTF cartridges and seat a spent primer so that it is proud by 30 or 40 thou. Chamber it and see how much the primer protrudes after you eject it. This will tell you how short (if any) your headspace is after resizing the brass.

Maybe something changed during your reloading, a different lot of brass, a change of shell holder, but if they were all processed at the same time with no interruptions as you explain, a smoking gun may be harder to find unless you have good measuring ability (tools).

Good luck and let us know what you find out.

Pull a few and deprime both live and struck from what is left of the box and do the hammer test

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Another question; did you measure how much you bumped back the shoulder of the case when resizing? If you are resizing for multiple chambers (in multiple rifles), you may be setting the shoulder back too far, and creating too much head space for the firing pin to work reliably. I see you're using an OAL gage, are you using a headspace gage too?

To test this, pull down one of the FTF cartridges and seat a spent primer so that it is proud by 30 or 40 thou. Chamber it and see how much the primer protrudes after you eject it. This will tell you how short (if any) your headspace is after resizing the brass.

Maybe something changed during your reloading, a different lot of brass, a change of shell holder, but if they were all processed at the same time with no interruptions as you explain, a smoking gun may be harder to find unless you have good measuring ability (tools).

Good luck and let us know what you find out.

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Texas10


Good post Texas10, you must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.

P.S. If this website wasn't so cheep with its web page design you would see a Smiley face after (I am.) above

http://clipartix.com/wp-content/uplo...rt-images.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

I hope some of the guys that are new to reloading on this website are paying attention. Ed knows how to get to the bottom of things. Troubleshooting 101. Class is in session.

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The last time I got to the bottom of things here I was banned for over a year. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...w/bangHead.gif

Yea, I figure if I hang out here a while, I'll be almost as smart, but never as good looking as you. That ship has already sailed.

But I have flown in a P51. Whoooo! what a rush!!!

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Originally Posted by earl39

Pull a few and deprime both live and struck from what is left of the box and do the hammer test

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I pulled three one from each different firing pin. All three went off. I don't have any thing to measure the shoulder besides my calipers and a socket. I measure the shoulder then bump it back and check difference to be sure I'm bumping it back. I'm at a bit of a stand still here. On one side I'm happy the primers I love went off. But on the other I got a problem with a lot that was all loaded exactly the same as the rest of them. So the next thing I have done this morning is grab some and shoot them across my chrony. 4 more didn't go off the 6 that did are all withing 27fps of the velocity of the rest of my recipe. Some were above some below. I'm almost out of them only have 4 left.

To elaborate on my socket shoulder method I drilled out a socket to fit over the neck with the drill press at work.

So, you're rolling your own ammo. COOL!! If you still have any that FTF, pull the bullets "out a bit" (lengthen the OAL of the round), enough that you end up stuffing the bullets into the lands. That will hold the case head back against the bolt head. That will let you fire those rounds.
Now, when you fire your rounds, see if the fired brass will fit back into the chamber. If it does, resize just enough that a new bullet will fit in the neck. You just avoided pushing the shoulder back too far. ONE STEP AT A TIME!! Might be tough when you're dealing with a few different rifles with different chamber (headspace) measurements.

I wanna make sure I understand this. You guys think headspace is to blame? I'm having a hard time understanding why. All 200 rounds where sized with the same die, loaded to the same OAL, primed with the same primers, loaded with the same powder, and all three rifles had multiple FTFs out of one box of 50 and none from the other three boxes. But every one of the primers I have pulled fired with the hammer test. I have 5 more FTF I didn't pull that I will reseat for my .270 and my brothers .270. I don't have access to my cousins he is in Tennessee. You definitely know a lot more about this then I do. I appreciate all the help hopefully someone can help me wrap my brain around it. I'm gonna buy a headspace gauge any suggestions on brand.

Double post

First you did something that is seldom done, you took 2 other rifles and proved it was only the reloads. Well done and I am not being sarcastic, I sometimes get ahead of myself and then its, *&^(, I should have done that FIRST!

So now we get down to the issues and it breaks into the following, each is as critical as the other though not all realize it.

I do seriously doubt the Primer, CCI is reliable. It is also HARDER than others and a tad larger, both harder to seat and it takes a good strike to set it off.

The best question I have always found to ask (someone else, I know what I have done) What Changed? Often something did, sometimes nothing, but its a darned good question. So did Anything at all change?

New to CCI use?

1. Brass: Is this new brass you have never used before? i.e possibly the pocket it too deep moving the primer too far from the firing pin (its an amazingly narrow range the firing pin can do its thing and not pierce or not work at all, probably the least understood part of the whole shebang.

While I love reloading FC brass, its the worst softest stuff around. To me its throw away once I have 5 rounds out of it.

2. Primer Seating: If you do not seat to the bottom, the primer will move as the pin hits it, absorbs the impact. Again not understood, the primer has a nice dent but did not go boom. As they are harder to seat its possible not seating deep enough

Look at the back, there should be NO part of the primer above the rim, it actually should be just a hair below it.


3. Head Space: Ideally the shoulder of the case would exactly be snug up to the corresponding slope in the chamber. Reality we give it a bit of room for variance.
Unfortunately to this day, RCBS and the rest say, run the down until it hits the shell holder, the lower the ram, give it another 1/4 turn and proceed.

What that does is bumps the shoulder back at least .005, maybe as much as .008. As brass has variances, if its new brass or different and or new it can change where it all falls.

So now you have at least .005 slop in the chamber with the cartridge in there and the bolt closed. What that means is the firing pin has to move the case .005 minimum forwards and still have enough protrusion to make the primer go bang.

Frankly its stunning how reliable this all is with the possible variances involved. Keeping in mind over travel of the pin will pierce the primer and that's really bad.

While its not your current problem full shoulder setup back also beats up the brass and you will crack the cases at the base is as few as 5 reloads.

I had to learn this all recently when I got back into it. Never reloaded enough rifle cases in a row to do it but I sure started.

The answer is what is called minimum shoulder setback. It requires a good micrometer (yea more money but a good digital is cheap these days) and Hornady makes a device that attaches to the calipers and an adaptor on that for various calibers (like 5 or 6 in the bag) that you put in the micrometer attachment and then you start a above the shell holder, you re-size, measure, turn, resize, measure, turn.

You can make it easy by making shell holder contact, then a 1/4 or half turn back, then check. There is very little (like 1/16) of a turn is a lot that to get it right. Ideal .002 but I vary between that and .003 and have ben working at it a while.

I'am thinking "headspace" because of brass differences NOT a mechanical problem with the initial setting of the barrel headspace. I believe you have caused the issue and really don't know it.
Brass being #1.
More than likely the shoulders were pushed back too far when resizing. All pieces of brass were EXACTLY the same length before you started resizing???
Short brass gets pushed forward from the firing pin and you get FTF and lite pin strike.
You proved the primers were OK by doing the hammer thing.
So, what's left??

Only one way to tell. Get a case headspace gauge or borrow/make one. Or use tape on the sized brass to tell how long the headspace is on the cases.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Only one way to tell. Get a case headspace gauge or borrow/make one. Or use tape on the sized brass to tell how long the headspace is on the cases.

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The best way in my opinion would be to use a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge.

Then measure fired cases and again after resizing to check shoulder bump and head clearance.

I did this on three different AR15 rifles and settled on .003 shoulder bump.

I also collected mil-surp rifles and many have longer headspace settings and this is where firing pin protrusion comes into play.

I have .303 British Enfield rifles, and at maximum military headspace you can have .016 head clearance if the rim thickness is .058.

My first guess is the primers were not bottomed out in the primer pocket and the firing pin hit was cushioned.

My second guess would be defective primers for whatever reason.

That being said I have a Lee .223 die that will push the case shoulder back .009 shorter than the chamber. And this is with the die making hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over.

The Lee die is the worst die I have for excessive shoulder bump if the dies directions are followed, meaning with the die contacting the shell holder.

Bottom line, the OP needs the Hornady gauge to measure fired cases and resized cases. Drop in case gauges like Wilson are hard to just eyeball when you get older and a digital vernier caliper is very easy to see.

What he needs to do is measure EACH rifle chamber. Easy way without getting too involved is to take a piece of fired brass from his rifle, tape the head and see how it fits. Now for the hard part. Take that piece of taped brass and see how it fits/compares to the chambers on the other rifles.

Thanks for the input guys. I'm gonna order a hornaday gauge tomorrow. I only have two of the rifles available to me to play with so I'll measure them both. I'll report back what I find. Any way this works out I'll learning more so I'm happy about that.

Have all rounds from the 50 box in question that you have already tried failed to fire? If so try seating the primer on a couple again (try seating deeper) and try those. If for some reason that box didn't seat all the way it can cause exactly what you are experiencing.

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Originally Posted by tufrthnails

Thanks for the input guys. I'm gonna order a hornaday gauge tomorrow. I only have two of the rifles available to me to play with so I'll measure them both. I'll report back what I find. Any way this works out I'll learning more so I'm happy about that.

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This is the way many of us do it.

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The Lee die is the worst die I have for excessive shoulder bump if the dies directions are followed, meaning with the die contacting the shell holder.

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My lee 223 and 308 are that way. Others were fine.

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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie

What he needs to do is measure EACH rifle chamber. Easy way without getting too involved is to take a piece of fired brass from his rifle, tape the head and see how it fits. Now for the hard part. Take that piece of taped brass and see how it fits/compares to the chambers on the other rifles.

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Forget the tape, all you need is a spent fired primer and resized case.

Measure the length of the resized case and write it down.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps1wlffukp.jpg

Next take a spent primer and with just finger pressure start the primer into the primer pocket.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...psu8rohxmz.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps9jbdmfqj.jpg

Now take this case and slowly chamber the case and let the bolt face seat the primer.
Now take the case out and remeasure the case and write it down.
Then subtract the first case measurement from the second.
The amount the primer is sticking out from the base of the case is your head clearance.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...psdsqq7guw.jpg

If you really liked this posting please send cash or checks to bigedp51's cheap bastards headspace gauge PO Box 17112

This money will be used to stop the importation of cheap Chinese scotch tape and lower the national dept. (yes we recycle used primers)

ROTFLMAO, (about your "cheap bastards headspace gage" of course).

Nice pics and graphics, ED!

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This money will be used to stop the importation of cheap Chinese scotch tape and lower the national dept. (yes we recycle used primers)

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LOL. Count me in!

Hahahaha big Ed thanks. I'll give it go and let you guys know. Problem I have I recently invested in Chinese scotch tape and you are killing my gun funds endeavour!

The photos were .303 British cases I made up for use in Enfield forums and checking actual headspace. When you the add case length difference to your rim thickness you have your actual headspace.

A .303 British Enfield at maximum military headspace of .074 and a case with a rim thickness of .058 could have .016 head clearance. Thats .014 more than .002 shoulder bump!!!!!

You can also use this primer method with a Hornady case gauge to get your chamber headspace length and compare it to a fired case. (brass spring back)

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Originally Posted by tufrthnails

I wanna make sure I understand this. You guys think headspace is to blame? I'm having a hard time understanding why. All 200 rounds where sized with the same die, loaded to the same OAL, primed with the same primers, loaded with the same powder, and all three rifles had multiple FTFs out of one box of 50 and none from the other three boxes. But every one of the primers I have pulled fired with the hammer test. I have 5 more FTF I didn't pull that I will reseat for my .270 and my brothers .270. I don't have access to my cousins he is in Tennessee. You definitely know a lot more about this then I do. I appreciate all the help hopefully someone can help me wrap my brain around it. I'm gonna buy a headspace gauge any suggestions on brand.

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What measurements do you get with your socket on the fired rounds and the rounds that FTF. You might be able to use a spent 9mm case as well (just a guess on my part. I don't shoot a 270)

Didn't make it back in time to use your method Big Ed. I'm at work now, but I got time tomorrow after I wake up. Pitbull I don't have my load sheet in front of me, but I think it was around .003" bump with the socket. I'll verify when I go out there to measure with Big Ed's meathod. A 9mm case isn't a bad Idea. I got the socket idea off here a while back and never had any problems with it I generally pull three measurements for consistency on anything I measure when it comes to loading.

I want to take the time to thank everyone for spending the time helping me figure this out.