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I have been handloading for this for a while. Every time i strike on something good, it seems like its not so good at the next range session. It could be mebut i havent had this issue w my other savages. Is it possible to shoot the same liad sub half moa one day multiple times and then have it be just sub moa multiple times the next assuming the rounds are identical? Or does it mean i just havent found a consistent load and should keep digging
Having everything uniform as possible is critical, are you sure each charge of powder is exactly the same to 1/10th of a grain?
Are you shooting the same brand brass as well?
Flash holes and primer pockets uniformed?
Make sure case length is within .001
One thing is measuring and making sure each bullet is seated within .001 on the ogive.
Sorry to ask so many questions, don't know your hand-loading experience so throwing some small key things out there. I'm a big savage fan I understand where your coming from, not knocking on the brand. Since I re barreled one with a different brand barrel I have seen way more consistency in groups vs the factory barrels. All factory barrels do shoot well and sounds as if yours is too but I never could narrow down the same thing you are describing on the one I had. Also what distance are you shooting your groups at? Faster twist barrels with heavier grain boat tails haven't started to stabilize their flight as well at shorter distances as a slower twist barrel with say flat base bullets. One thing I have noticed too which is a huge factor in my experience is neck tension. If you got one bullet or more that you feel seating harder separate and the ones that feel consistent in seating pressure shoot those next time and see if it does better. I know inconsistency in neck tension causes nice bug holes to go south.
I have found too in my experience I cannot shoot from a bag as well as an bipod, I am not consistent at all with a bag I got to work on that but I can shoot one hole groups with my newly built savage 6br on a bipod, turn around and shoot from a bag put 2 in the same hole and throw the 3rd one an inch off, technique is everything
Sounds like your load is good, could be like me with the bag, something you might not be doing consistent each time. Hope this helps ya out friend and don't stress enjoy the trigger time.
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Could be on the very edge of an accuracy node.
Could be resting inconsistently with the Tupperware stock.
Could just be being more careful with the wind some days not others. Some say wind doesn't matter at 100yds but that depends what your shooting. When shooting cans or critters it won't seem to matter but shooting groups it definitely does. A full value 5mph gust will throw me off almost a half inch at 100.
My money would be on the stock. The non accustock stocks from Savage seem really unforgiving when it comes to form with rests.
Thanks. Im shooting 100-150yd. Trying to get consistent so i can shoot 600. Norma brass with 178 amac. I found they shoot betterthan 168 in mine. 42 grains imr 4895. Tupperware stock in a lead sled. Tried bags too. I have struggled getting consistent neck tensions w my lee collet die.admittedly although they feel similar.
Starting to wonder if its worth chasing this much more. Have a new xcaliber 6.5x55 i want to try out
my first question is how long have you been shooting and reloading? next would be what are the weather conditions when you shoot the tight groups and whats the conditions when things open up?
Till I got a 36x BR scope, I had no idea how bad my bench technique was. After setting your rifle up on the bags, dry fire and see if the crosshairs move. If they do, you got it set up wrong. If you can see your heartbeat in the scope, you are holding it wrong. There is a reason the BR guys only touch the rifle with their trigger finger. Can you read the wind? Where are your wind flags set? The first 25 yards are more important than the last 50. You got to be consistent and have lots of trigger time.
Bill
I had a problem similar to yours and in my case inattention to neck tension was the culprit. Are you keeping good notes of your process?
I have had similar problems. I think its me and the lack of consistency.
My personal take is once you get sub 3/4 and for sure sub 5/8 MOA, then the least little bit of variation by the shooter changes things and sometimes dramatically.
While it ebbs back and forth, I am finding I am shooting more and more sub 3/4 and working into sub 5/8 MOA.
Rarely now do I get more than 1 inch.
It may be the setup for the 12FV that is harder to get consistent.
Agreed on the edge of a node, I have had some good shooting in winter and then off when spring comes
But also in winter heavier clothing and I am more buffered from he gun!
A help for me is putting all of them in on type of good stock.
I would try reinstalling it again from scratch using the directions like you just opened it for the first time. Maybe try a few times if needed if that doesn't work contact lee for an exchange. My consistency improved greatly with the collet neck dies. They were a game changer for me. All my sizing is done with the lee CNSD and when needed redding body sizing dieQuote:
Originally Posted by alltherage
Thanks. Been reloading for a year and shooting this 308 during that same time. Frustrating because my axis hb 243 shoots insanely consistent using same methods
Got good brass??
Have you tried any quality factory ammo?
I get 1/4" 3 shot groups at 100 one day and 6/8" the next. Not worth shooting 600 with 6/8 but it is with 1/4". Thats the dilemma for me
I have a sighting sled I bought at Cabelas that allows me to strap in the rifle and dial it on target with different adjustments. That's the only way I can test the potential of my rifles, I'm just not that good, I haven't used the remote trigger puller though, it just seems wrong.
Why would it not be worth shooting at 600?
And I bet is more you than your loads...I'd suggest you take your 243 and 308 out and film yourself shooting both with a video camera....I'll guarantee you'll find the problem if you know what to look for.
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First thing is to make sure the base screws are tight as well as the scope rings and mount screws.
Ditto with action screws, consistent tension rather than the super fine tuning.
I think I begin to see part of the problem. And I hope I am not raining on a parade.
5 shots is the minimum for assessing a group. Be that from a shooter or the hardware perspective (gun, scope, ammo)
I am not big into that kind of math but its a statistical thing. Actually the real iron test is 10 shots (for the hardware). I don't think that is worth it unless or until the consistent is there to wring out the hardware end. I shoot those from time to time. I am not consistent enough to hold it normally.
I also find I do well with a new barrel or rifle then go off sideways for a while. No idea yet what that is about.
It still sounds like a body mechanics factor (and that includes how the stock suits you) .
Also, the best initial way to test a rifle load is to pick a load near the bottom of the range of loads (I use at least two books) go 3/10 above that and then load groups of 15 on up to near maximum.
There should be an accurate node down in the lower end, another one in the upper end, usually neither one is minimum or maximum.
Said accurate is not 1/2 inch group, its one that is consistent (3/4, 1 inch). Then you start adjusting COAL.
I take a press to the range with me (I have an old RCBS Junior that works well for that but there are hand presses out for that now as well)
My take is something about .010 off the lands, and by that I mean testing a bullet that is too long, feel it stick where you have to tap the bolt handle to get it unstuck (putting it in carefully, don't slam the bolt, just move it forward gently and try to close it). When it stick you will see mars on the bullet.
Drop it back about .010 from that. See what it does. Move it up .005. I don't like bullets jammed but the experts say that is usually the most accurate.
As I am not going to be shooting 1s and 2s I don't worry about that part.
It may be that its happier with .015 on up to .060.
Some bullets like a long jump, there is a method to find that, have to look it up.
Stringing either way can be a factor of searing depth and you can tune that out from a string to a group (as long as its not a gun issue)
Thanks for all the help. I have shot a couple hundred rounds down it during load development. I got to where i thought i needed to be but its not consistent all the time. I think i will focus on mechanics. The stock. Neck tension. Anywhere variation could come into play
just to add to this topic, we have 4 12 fv's in the group, of the 4, 3 of us went with aftermarket stocks and improvements were made.
Chet
I have had experience with two 308 12fvs and a 22 250 and a 204 as well. One 308 liked 168s and the other 165 Sierras. All 4 rifles will shoot half most but we haven't shot the enough to really test day to day consistency. I have the most experience with my 22 250 and I have noticed it does not shoot consistent until several fouling shots after cleaning. The 22 250 and the 308's seems to really like varget.
I have rifles that are .5" one day then
.7" the next. If a rifle will do it one day and doesn't the next imo it is weather, load inconsistencies, and shooter error etc. I don't shoot long range and my rifles are basically for coyote hunting. If my varmint contours average .6" or better and my sporters. .75" or better with 5 shot groups I leave my hair in my head and call it success. Until you bed and relieve any contact areas like triggers pins, mag boxes etc, and micro tune your loads I think one is whizzing up stream thinking they can put everyone in the same hole....just too many variables at work. These are my conclusion after working with maybe 15 or so factory rifles in the last 3 or so years since I started reloading.
If factory rifles all were capable of sub .5" groups there would be no need for match barrels etc.
I don't trust scopes as well when you give it one click and it moves .75 one way and sometimes affects the other direction as well it leaves me skeptical. I think factory .6" .5" shooters are as good as you can expect to get.
I don't disbelieve you, but does anyone ever go back and put the plastic stock back on and see if things get worse again?Quote:
just to add to this topic, we have 4 12 fv's in the group, of the 4, 3 of us went with aftermarket stocks and improvements were made.
Lol...that's a good question
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I still have mine, will get an accurate load and do so (that's going to be 3 months down the road at current temperatures!)
I have when I wanted to use the better stock for another rifle and put the factory stock back on. Factory non accustock Tupperware opens my groups right up.Quote:
Originally Posted by upinthehills
I'm not one to do a bunch of mods or upgrades on a rifle but a stock is a must for me
Maybe i will try a new stock n stick with my imr 4895. For the cost of trying new components i will be at same cost as a stock. One day i shot 5 different 3 shot groups half mia or better. I was varing grains by .1 as i recall. I know im where i need to be loadwise it would seem
Any Economical Stock suggestions based on experience?
i worked up loads with the 12fv and oem stock, as far as rigidity goes, this oem stock is very very economically made, then i purchased the Choate tactical stock very rigid, palm swell too big, then i tried the Bell & Carlson model 2997, this stock is as good as it gets from a design and its unique alum bedding system. if i had to do it over i might have tried to grind the palm swell area on the Choate, i did have a choate Varmint about 5 yrs ago and it is a nice stock basically for the bench shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by alltherage
Chet
I bought a 12fv this past spring and I was having a horrible time all summer getting it to group with my hand loads. I ended up trying to shoot 500 yards with it a few weeks ago and had a horrible time even hitting the box, but the 3 times I hit the box I could see that my bullets were tumbling. I went home and checked the barrel and there was a bulge inside the barrel about half way down. I had not caught it sooner because I was not looking for it. I called Savage, they sent me a return label and as of last week they had put a new barrel on it and were getting ready to send it back. Hopefully your issue is not that complicated, but there is a chance that your barrel may be flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltherage
I stop when I get to half MIA.
Can tell us about your reloading process including brass make, how many times fired, dies and scale type/maker. Do you have any Varget, 4064 or R15?
I've been thinking the same. Experimenting with powders is fun but I'd sAve that for after I had a proven accurate and stable usefull load. It's true that all calibers and rifles like different loads but when it comes to .308 those 3 are a must to try. Varget is hard to beat for accuracy and repeatability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
When it comes to stocks it's a preference thing but it's hard to go wrong with bell & carlson, hs precision, or choate. When buying a stock I usually convert to dbm at the same time if I can find cheap bottom metal in the classifieds.
My favorites for the money are
B&c m40 w/dbm
Hs precision 114 w/dbm
B&c varmint blind mag
Choate tactical dbm
Choate ult sniper blind
In that order. Note that the ultimate sniper is like7-9lbs so don't buy it for a hiking rifle lol
What does that look like? Is it something you would feel cleaning the gun? Was the bore bigger or smaller in the bulge?Quote:
I went home and checked the barrel and there was a bulge inside the barrel about half way down.
I could see a dark ring inside the barrel where the inside diameter was slightly bigger. I think the bullet did not touch the lands at that spot, so the rifling was much darker from the burned powered deposits.Quote:
Originally Posted by upinthehills
While Varget is good, there seems to be a wider variability to it than others.
Movement is away form it for that reason. Bench rest shooters are complaining that they have to redevelop the load when they get a new batch.,
If you get it (and it is a good one for sure) I would get an 8 lb jug so that your lot stays the same for along time.
By then, when you get a new lot you will be able to nudge it up or down until its back in the slot.
Well have to agree to disagree there. Varget is a favorite powder of mine for many calibers. I buy every jug I can get no matter the lot number and by making sure I'm in the middle of a node rather than the edge I've never had to rework due to lot variance. Poi shift yes but that isn't unique to varget. And honestly I can't think of a more recommended or harder to keep in stock powder.
I've decided to switch to a different powder countless times due to availability but never once found something I liked nearly enough to knock varget off the pedestal. I get similar enough results that I just started buying up RL15 as a backup when I can't restock varget before I run out
Yep. POI shift especially from season to season. There is a big difference in shooting 20 rds at 1000 yards in 20 minutes trying to hold .5 MOA and shooting 5 at 100 with no time limit. Real world experience in competition teaches more than internet forums.
For my shooting I think I would not see the difference.Quote:
Well have to agree to disagree there. Varget is a favorite powder of mine for many calibers. I buy every jug I can get no matter the lot number and by making sure I'm in the middle of a node rather than the edge I've never had to rework due to lot variance. Poi shift yes but that isn't unique to varget. And honestly I can't think of a more recommended or harder to keep in stock powder.
I've decided to switch to a different powder countless times due to availability but never once found something I liked nearly enough to knock varget off the pedestal. I get similar enough results that I just started buying up RL15 as a backup when I can't restock varget before I run out
Just sort of a comment on the state of what the top types are thinking.
If I can find it I plan on getting an 8 lb jug of it. I can get the 1 lb jugs but the price is a lot higher.
Need to re-up the R17 as well. That's an odd one as it floods in sometimes then gone for a while.
I have spoken to some of the top shooters and I rarely hear any negatives about Varget, at least for competition. I actual hear the opposite except on internet forums. The majority of Varget users are shooting calibers that fall into a limited group due to the cartridge being used. Other extreme powders are used more often due to the needs of a particular cartridge. the 6's and 6.5's are using something a little slower.
Something I do find interesting is that the most accurate load for many a 270 Winchester is around 47 grains of 4064. Go figure.