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Reading on another forum about a guy who was using Reloader 16, Lapua Brass and 140gr Bergers to get 2950fps in a Creedmoor with "no pressure signs"...said he was headed for 3000fps. I have shot a lot of 6.5 Creedmoor. and 6.5x55 with 140gr bullets but never got that kind of velocity with "no pressure signs" from anything. That Reloader 16 must be some magic stuff.
I already have gotten 3054 from 143 gr ELDX in a 26" barrel no pressure signs with RL26 , RL16 would be pushing it for pressure I would think, but not impossible to hit 3000.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...18-Reloader-26
I used RL-17 when I have my creedmoor. Pet load was 42.0 gr @2795 fps. No pressure signs. Sold the rifle before trying RL-16.
I did get 2950 with reloader 17 in my 260 shooting a 140gr berger hybrid. I did get pressure signs. I've since moved on to H4350 and getting excellent groups with very consistent velocity, beating H4831sc. The velocity I'm getting now is 2850fps.
If I want to get faster velocity, I'll build a rifle chambered that can safely push those velocities.
A friend is using reloader 16 in his 6.5 but he isn't getting that velocity, more like 2840 with a 26 inch barrel.
The thing about the guy who posted the RL-16 and 2950+ velocity is the "no pressure signs" statement. It just ain't gonna happen. In order to believe that, you would have to believe that a 6.5 Creedmoor is getting 264 Win Mag velocities with 140gr bullets without pressure signs. BS!!!!
2800 - 2850 is about the most I've ever been able to push a 260. There's not much difference, realistically speaking, between a 260, a 6.5 creedmoor, or a 6.5x55. Those 3 cartridges will push the 140gr bullet about the same velocity +- 50fps.
He said he was using Berger Hybrids and the max load i tried was 43.9g of R16. MV average was 2,945 with no pressure signs, they asked me to run QL on his loads.
Here is what I got.
I was not sure what Case volume is or COAL so I ran it on my stuff with a 26" barrel.
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 140, Berger Hybr #26414
Useable Case Capaci: 46.788 grain H2O = 3.038 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.870 inch = 72.90 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-16
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-20.0 84 35.12 2407 1801 33269 7754 98.0 1.637
-18.0 86 36.00 2463 1886 35575 7921 98.7 1.593
-16.0 88 36.88 2519 1972 38042 8072 99.2 1.547
-14.0 90 37.75 2574 2059 40686 8208 99.6 1.501
-12.0 92 38.63 2628 2147 43520 8326 99.8 1.456
-10.0 94 39.51 2682 2236 46556 8427 100.0 1.413
-08.0 96 40.39 2735 2326 49809 8512 100.0 1.372
-06.0 98 41.27 2788 2416 53260 8590 100.0 1.332
-04.0 100 42.14 2840 2507 56939 8665 100.0 1.294 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 43.02 2891 2599 60872 8738 100.0 1.257 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 105 43.90 2942 2691 65079 8808 100.0 1.222 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 107 44.78 2993 2785 69582 8876 100.0 1.188 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 109 45.66 3043 2879 74408 8940 100.0 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 46.53 3093 2974 79585 9001 100.0 1.124 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 47.41 3143 3070 85146 9059 100.0 1.094 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 48.29 3192 3167 91126 9114 100.0 1.065 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 43.90 3032 2858 78802 8459 100.0 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 43.90 2802 2441 51755 9258 99.5 1.335
So pressures look dangerous with that load.
RL26 will hit 3000 fps in a 26" barrel with 143gr bullets without high pressures, it will do about 100 fps faster than most powders without high pressure in most of the small over bores like 243 Win 260 Rem 6.5 Creed.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
My testing was up to 49 grs of RL26 behind Hornady 143ELDX Bullet, using Nosler Brass H2O 52.7 gr cap., BR2 primers and COAL of 2.890" .020" off lands.
49 got me 3045 average fps and ES of 19 SD of 9.6 group size 3 shots was .567" ctc, no pressure signs my load with 48 grs was 2999 fps average with same bullet and components but group size 3 shots was .216" ctc with ES of 12 SD of 6.6, QL shows the 49 gr load to be 61,221.
Not much for info on that powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor except for Berger that has it listed for 135 gr classic Hunter. They have 45 gr for start load at 2657 fps and 49.8 gr max load at 2977 fps out of a 24" tube. Their info is almost spot on with QL with RL26 (QL 2972 fps at 57551 psi) as well as info at Alliant shows that QL data on RL26 to be accurate. Based off this I started with 46 gr. with the 140 Nosler RDF and worked up then did the same with Hornady 143 ELDX. Being that one of the weak link in the 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be primer pockets loosening up even with factory loads that have been pressure checked to be below SAAMI Max Pressure I should start to see signs there. QL shows the 49 gr load with 143 ELDX to be 61221 psi, I believe they are close but without Pressure Trace or other pressure testing I can't be sure other than watching for tell tale signs. 48 grains gets just at the 3000 mark with QL pressures of 56490 psi. and that is the spot I am going to work on.
I still have a lot of load work to do, I still have to try different COALs, change charge by 1/10 gr up to 48.4 grs and I have done more case prep as well as better powder measurement in hopes to bring down ES.
People who use "signs" tend to burn others at the stake for being less ignorant than them, don't trust those people any farther than you can throw them. The Precision Rifle Blog also regurgitated "No signs" concerning the FlatLine bullets a couple years ago. Instead of bowing to the alter of stupid, we Pressure tested them. We also pressure tested the claims of more velocity out of RL-17 in the Creedmoor, so apparently now it must be RL-16 that could be magic.... For those interested in reality: "Signs" mean you brass has hit it's yield strength, NOT that you hit your SAAMI operating pressure. Typically todays brass shows "signs" when you are already OVER 75,000 psi. So please, stop being stupid when there are innocent people shooting near you. No you CANNOT push a 150gr bullet as fast as a 130gr at the same pressure. No this other powder that is marginal by burning rate isn't suddenly suspending the laws of physics, just so that it can gain you another few hundred fps.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
The only way to get relatively more velocity from the same operating pressure, is to radically change the burning curve. This is what progressive burning powders like Superformance do. This is a newer trait, NO powder that is older than perhaps a decade(in canister form) will be that.
First thing, you need to be CAREFUL with QL, it is a fun little calculator, but take it for that only. Anything made by General Dynamics is dangerously limited in knowledge, based upon weak bomb testing. Moreover Hodgdon is too stupid to know what they resell most of the time, OR based upon the fact they swap suppliers like you and I swap socks. Has QL come out with an update since last fall warning you that IMR-4064 in the 1# bottles is fine, but that the 8# jugs are now made by Rhinemetal?? Didn't think so. Most people probably still loading by grains as though there is zero lot variations out there and magically the load will forever be the same results too.... If factory brass has loose primer pockets after a single firing, then they are over-pressure. Hornady typically builds brass to 120% of operating pressure for the cartridge, whereas the revered Lapua is 130%. "Signs" happen after this. Unless the tensile strength of brass gets met, you won't see the "signs" of stretching. Watch your chronograph for signs of pressure. Are you going over book velocity? Then you already went over book pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowfishn
I get over 2900 out of my CBI 6.5 Swede using H4831 or IMR4955,NO pressure signs.
Hornady had enlarged primer pockets with their factory ammo that was pressure tested at quite a bit less than max pressure, they had to reduce even more, apparently the brass was not mfg up to the 130% over. Seems to me the weak point in the 6.5 creedmoor is the brass.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
Berger has a load that they tested keeping it safe enough to publish for customers to use for their 135 gr. Classic Hunter using RL26
Start Load 45 gr vel 2657 fps, Max load 49.8 vel 2977 fps this is out of a 24" tube. If you input their information into QL it shows for their COAL of 2.800" with 49.8 gr of RL26 at 105% fill a velocity out of a 24" barrel of 2977 fps at just a bit below 58,000 psi. Seems to me QL is about spot on for this powder in the 6.5 Creed. (3030 fps is what is shown for 26" tube)
http://www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/6.5...moor-135gr.pdf
I appreciate the input, I believe you may be the guy on here that tested quite a few loads using Pressure Trace a while back.
When weather get good and hot , well at least in the 90's I will test loads backed down at 46 and up to my 48 gr load I have settled on.
One thing I found out today is Velocity dropped 10 fps average when I loaded to COAL of 2.880" from my test Coal today of 2.895" that is .005" off lands. So even though I am not jamming the lands the jump is short enough to cause an increase in pressure at 2.895"
So far with temp changes the velocity changed 10 - 13 fps with a 45 deg Far. change. Shot my first tests with cartridges at 40 deg Far av 2990 fps and then used cartridges kept at a controlled 85 deg far in my truck and from truck into front pants pocket then one at a time into a hot chamber average 2999 fps. (Same average velocity I got testing with same load a few weeks back, using the same method to keep them hot. Only difference was a COAL of 2.890")
I don't own a 6.5 Creed but have loaded many combinations for the 7mm-08 Rem which in theory should be faster than a 6.5 due to larger bore if loaded to equal pressures. 2850 fps with 140gr bullets and published maximums is the best I've been able to do. This has been with several different 7mm-08's all with 22" barrels.
There are a few powders if you were running a 26" barrel with your 7mm-08 that will get you over 3000 fps with a 140 gr. bullet.
Ok I have entered in burn rate changes to get QL to match velocities I am getting and I will have to say that 49 gr of RL26 with the 143 ELD-X is over pressure (QL shows 70538 to get the speed I was getting with 49 gr.) even though pressure signs are not showing, as darkker said brass may not show signs until it is quite a bit over.
I have been working with the 48 gr load, because I felt 49 was most likely at the edge and from new calculations it is most likely at levels that could be problematic or even catastrophic.
48 gr I feel is at the upper limits of what is safe in my rifle, please do not assume because someone else is doing it, it is ok to load load to these levels without caution, as it only takes slight variances to cause problems. I will continue testing at 48 gr checking temp variance and see how brass hold up.
I believe my next barrel will be 28" to get me at the 3000 fps I want but with about 3000 less in pressure.
I am also switching to the 3 1 lb containers that I have with a different lot number so I will watch velocity and adjust burn rate accordingly.
Good man.
Yes, I've one of a few who've posted Pressure Trace II data here. In a 308, we've tested a few 308 loads where the powder began to "run away" in the heat of Phoenix. The whole firing event, extraction, recoil, etc was completely normal, and the primers would actually make you think that the load was "light". However the pressures were just north of 75,000 psi! :o If you want absolute speed, then perhaps the length will get you there. If you want less pressure and not sacrifice a bunch of speed, progessive burning curve powders can do that. However you will need a pressure measurement device to be precise in that effort. With superformance I've been able to knock about 10,000-15,000 psi off, but only lose 50-75 fps. The trick to it is that you need to see where the burning curve begins to shift, or change shape. Unfortunately the only way of knowing that is with tools to measure it.
Was at the range, picked up some Hornady Factory Brass from Factory Ammo. It had signs of high pressure brass, flowing into ejector hole creating quite a raised round mark on base of brass. Funny that Factory ammo has been worked up using pressure equipment but has pressure signs I would say is way over pressure. No wonder they had problems with primer pockets.
You have to remember how they make ammo. With the exception of Nosler, no one buys canister powder (what we buy at the store). They also change propellant very frequently, when a potential savings comes along. How much variance there is in that powder, and why was it suddenly so cheap (surplussed?), What method was the pressure testing done with (CUP)? All contribute to running into hiccups. CUP data alone can be wrong by 20,000 psi in a high pressure cartridge.
On Long Range Hunting there is a discussion about a load in a 6.5x47 Lapua, a guy was using 140 Berger Hyb. with 41.5 gr of RL17 out of a 26" barrel and getting just north of 3000 fps.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker
Now the load is at a point it could be high pressure or at max depending on other variables, My QL shows 41.5gr RL17 with 140 Berger Hyb to be 2933 fps @ 66,688 psi (over max load), but to get 3000+ with 140 Berger Hyb with RL17 out of a 6.5x47 Lapua 26" barrel it takes just over 73,000 psi 10,000 over max, not a recommended load.
2.800 " coal 48.00 gr h2o case capacity was what I used as I had no other info to go by.
He had no pressure signs as in no hard bolt lift or flattened primers etc. but I do believe you are correct in your findings that these things don't always show up until quite a bit over pressure depending on cartridge and rifle.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...-signs-186642/
He can also claim that because there are no Ice Giants in the world that Thor was real. Doesn't make it real, or prove he is not a lunatic.
Here is what a 26" barrel on a Creedmoor.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...pskz7cqnti.png
And just as I posted in my debunking of the garbage claims of the FL bullets. Just because he may like Berger, or FL, or JLK, those bullets don't magically shoot faster without more pressure. If you get more speed, you have more pressure.
He is not using a Creedmoor but a 47 lapua that has even less case volume.
Is that with a 26" or with a 24? It says it is a Ruger Predator 6.5 Creedmoor 24".
Any ways thanks for posting that.
Quote by Darkker "And just as I posted in my debunking of the garbage claims of the FL bullets"
Were is this?
Well it is a good day when I learn something new, I shoot the 6.5x284norma not the Creedmoor, but this thread has made a lot of thing very clear, think you !!!!
I have a 24" creedmoor and get 2820 fps with 43.0 RL-16, 140 RDF and Hornady Brass.
My buddy shoots a 26" Creedmoor and shoots 130 Norma Golden Target with RL-16. He just bought some Lapua brass and said his velocity increased 30 fps over the same load as Hornady brass. Take it for what it is worth.
Increase sounds right, Lapua has less case volume so pressure goes up as well as velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by icker96
Sorry, good catch; confused rifles... Yes, that is a 24" barrel on a factory Predator. My 26" barrel is within 15fps at the same pressure interestingly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowfishn
Can't find it in the search, so apparently I never posted here...
https://www.shootersforum.com/handlo...-part-one.html
https://www.shootersforum.com/handlo...e-episode.html
I've got a question about the 6.5CM and powder selection...
What's with the slow powders? (IMR4350/4451, H4831, et al)
I've loaded for .308/7.62 (IMR3031 through IMR4064) and smaller rounds, the only thing I have that uses something that slow (H4831) is .348WCF and the 250grn bullets. I started loading for a friend's RPR in 6.5CM, thinking a 142grn bullet = IMR4895 or 4064, which you can use, but like this thread suggests... everyone is getting fantastic results with the much slower powder. I must admit, I was quite surprised.... and am sort of scratching my head as to why.
So there is quite a lot to that question, but here are the highlights for you.
"Burning rates" aren't a fixed thing, they change based upon the cartridge used in. Burning rate charts are a relative thing based upon caloric bomb testing.
Because burning rates shift, it isn't just the total case capacity that is important. For a very very generalized idea, think of it based upon amount of powder loaded for the bore and bearing surface of the bullet used.
The Creedmoor then looks stunningly similar to the 30-06, which is why the same powders are the appropriate choices.
I assumed it had something to do with the bore/case (capacity)/bullet weight formula... I hadn't thought about bearing surface of the bullet. Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkker