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How exactly does one reduce the bolt lift effort aside from a longer bolt handle. I've polished the rear baffle ramp and the bolt handle cam, as well as the bolt lugs. I just don't know if I've missed anything. I've been on Fred's waiting list to have my two actions trued and timed for over four years. I just don't get it.
Kevin
Air76-- You just kicked a hornets nest. Sit back and be prepared for lots of info. ;) I tried one of the fixes but it ended up a huge waste of time and effort. Good luck! Quick
Roger that...bee suit on.
I've had some of those days.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...es/beehive.gif
Thanks for the morning laugh boys...
Four years? Don't you think he forgot about you? You must be a VERY patient guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
patient!!! I'd say thats an understatement!....LOL
I made my appointment around May to have it done at the beginning of September(supposedly one of the first ones after they return from the Jamboree). I havent been called yet, and if youre ahead of me on the list I doubt Ill even own the gun anymore by the time it's time to be T&T'd...LOL I know they're busy so I have just forgotten about it, but if it was something I was really, really needing done I'd be pretty upset.
As far as a sooner solution to a lighter boltlift, you can always order a bolt lift kit from Stockade Gunstocks. They cost about $8 and you'll have it in a week. All you'd need to do is to shorten the rear bolt screw by about .112"(thats what the 7 of mine measured anyway). Stockade may even be able to sell you a new screw that is already shortened. It will help a little bit, but not near as much as a T&T job.
I would get on the phone with Lisa and find out your status on the wait list. I have had to wait several months but the results were worth it.
Yep, four years as of August 23rd. Got the emails to prove it too. I've checked in by email and phone, but just haven't been called back or replied to about my actions. I'm thinking I don't want it done now, as bad as I want it done.
Had a friend tell me about a mod for bolt lift effort, but I can't tell any difference really. It's a 38 Special case that I cut down and threw a ball bearing into the primer pocket. I'm guessing this is what Stockade has listed on their website.
Did you trim the BAS? If you didn't, you reduced the friction but added spring tension.
Yeah, it is basically the same thing. But like Geargrinder said and why I mentioned it in my earlier post, if you did not trim the rear bolt assembly screw by that approx .112" or so(the thickness of the washer/casehead and however much ball bearing sticks up out of it) you will decrease the friction, but you will increase the spring tension. This essentially evens out at best, but can make it worse than it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
By trimming the BAS you keep the same spring tension as you had, and lessen the amount of friction, which will ease boltlift somewhat.
I wonder how much a guy could shorten the BAB and still get positive ignition?
What the heck is that?
I gave you the correct way to install the bolt lift kit. You should not shorten the BAS unless you are installing the kit, and then you have to measure the kit and shorten the BAS that amount. If you shorten it anymore it could be unreliable, and I do not think anyone here would tell you to do that..Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
No matter what you do it will not lighten the bolt lift as much as Freds T&T job however. It is WELL worth the money, but up to the individual if it is worth the wait or not.
[quote=pdog06 ]
patient!!! I'd say thats an understatement!....LOL
I made my appointment around May to have it done at the beginning of September(supposedly one of the first ones after they return from the Jamboree). I havent been called yet, and if youre ahead of me on the list I doubt Ill even own the gun anymore by the time it's time to be T&T'd...LOL I know they're busy so I have just forgotten about it, but if it was something I was really, really needing done I'd be pretty upset.
talk to kevin at stockade, he also does T&T's but not listed on his website.
I made the initial request in 2006, and in 2007 I ordered a rimfire stock stock from them (very nice by the way), and inquired about it again then as well. I was told "within the next 90 days" and was even going to get the old T&T pricing for my troubles. That should give you guys some idea how long I've been waiting. I've been told by several friends of mine who have had it done that it's worth the wait, but four years? It had better be AWESOME-LOL.
Kevin
I understood your instructions in that you remove as much as you add. Perhaps my question was not asked correctly. I would like to see how much more could one remove from the BAB and still have positive ignition. I think we can all agree that most firearms are over-engineered / oversprung in many areas: triggers (thanks lawyers!), gas systems, etc. This is done to permit positive function during less than ideal scenarios. I'm a tinkerer by nature, and I'm just curious just how oversprung the firing pin spring is. It would be interesting to see how far it could be reduced until the rifle started having ignition problems. Once that is established, add a safety factor of say 10% to ensure positive ignition, and see what the resulting reduction would be. I'd be willing to sacrifice a BAB for that kind of research...that is, unless someone's already done it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
Kevin
Kevin
I got two lift kits from Kevin Rahill last week. I asked him about shortening the BAS, he said I could shorten it by 1/8" or not even bother to shorten it as some of the Savage springs are on the weak side anyway. I put them both in without shortening the BAS and I don't think I can tell any difference really. It probably would help if I shortened the screw.
It's been tried. How are you going to know when you have enough for reliable ignition and enough to keep the pin from being blown back? Then how are you going to pass this along in a safe manner that will not get some one hurt trying to copy you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aircraftmech76
Why would the pin be blown back Greg???? You would either still have a full firing pin dent and good ignition, or a shallower dent and inconsistent ignition. And my Savage is Oversprung and the cute little 38 case didn't help hardly at all.
Keep a log of how much I've removed and track the results. I've never heard of a firing pin being blown back. The M14 firing pin is not spring loaded, but floats. I don't have problems with that rifle and it's firing pin design. I don't understand how this would be a problem.
In trying to lighten bolt lift by lightening the firing pin spring, you will be sacrificing lock time. If you read the Houston Warehouse secrets article in the Daily Bulletin of a few days ago, you will note that the 'experts' call for the heaviest spring that is feasible. Why don't you want a longer bolt handle? You are using good lub on the lugs right?
I read that article quite a few years ago. Those were some lucky, and talented, guys. I really enjoyed reading it. I too realized that increased lock time would be an issue here with a weaker firing pin spring. I wonder if a titanium firing pin would negate some of those side effects. Looks like another project for me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tozguy
I am all for the longer bolt handle. Love 'em. I use a good lube on the lugs, the PE cam interface between the rear baffle and bolt handle, as well as the small space between the front lugs and the front baffle. I've also polished all those mating surfaces. I am looking forward to a T&T to see what kind of improvement there is in the bolt lift, as I have never tried an action with it.
Kevin
I think most Savages come with the heaviest spring that is feasible! I've got a lot of work in my not done yet one, and it still cocks harder than any other make.
The Model 12 bolt lift is the heaviest of my rifles too. As Aircraft has implied, even after doing all the basic tuning stuff to improve bolt lift effort, it still leaves something to be desired. It seems odd that Savage would put a characteristic like that on the market if it could be avoided. It is especially surprising to have a two lug bolt harder to open than a three lug short throw bolt. Hoping we find some solutions without having to wait four years.
why not shim the bas back
seems it be the same ,why waste agood bas
That has been done here also..... Yes, it will work if it is the same thickness as the bolt lift kit, but then you are not threading the BAS as far into the bolt either. Seems it is much easier to just trim the BAS than it is to custom make a spacer to match perfectly with the head of the BAS, especially if it is going on a blued action.Quote:
Originally Posted by drybean
Aircraftmech76,
Doesnt really matter anyway, cause the bolt lift kits only help a small amount. It's not gonna replace the feel of a T&T'd action, so if thats what youre after then thats what you need to do(BTW, I believe a bolt lift kit is part of the T&T job also).... Call Lisa, ask her how many people are ahead of you, ask her when it can be done, and ask why you have had to wait so long. Sounds like you have already done some of that, but if it has truly been 4 years something went wrong.
Maybe Fred thinks you are a different Kevin!!!!!!
Thanks Pdog; that's what I'm going to do. The last time I talked with Lisa in '07, she said she'd have both of my actions T&T'd at the previous price. I just need to get on the horn again with her and get my actions in the mail. Thanks for all the input fellas.
Kevin
i had polished the same places as everybody did and added a bolt lift kit that i made myself. never trimmed anything. afterwards i sent it in for a T&T. took 30 days. called in around feb-march of this year, sent it in late may, had it back early july. its hard to compare to what i thought it felt like a month before after getting it back. i cant say its really any better. its trued. but its just too hard to say if there is a difference between what it was before and what it is now after. i liked the improvement after polishing and the lift kit. that was a definite difference. and im not talking smack. its just hard to define after i hadnt touched it for 30-40 days
Last year I posted some stuff related to spacing the BAS to release the pressure on the springs. Everyone's concensus was that the firing pin wouldn't support the primer. It did make for a very light bolt lift and was reliable but based on everyone else here I stopped using it for fear of a primer blowing.
What I do now is install a thust bearing between the BAS and the cocking sleeve then use a spacer under the BAS that is the same thickness. No loss of primer support and the bolt lift is a lot smoother.
Seemed to create quite a stir last year when I posted the info on the thrust bearing idea but here is the link if you want to look:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,30658.0.html
I was also giving these versions out for a while as well:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,28470.0.html
Neither of these are supposed to replace a quality T&T but what they do give is a low cost option for those who can't afford a T&T or are in the que. I have one rifle that has the bearing and nother that has the dilled and tapped 38 special case. Both have at least 300 trouble free rounds through them.
Dolomite
I have a fundamentally basic question with regards to the idea that the firing pin somehow supports the primer: what does that thing called a bolt face do? In relation to the surface area of the face of the firing pin versus the amount of support lended to the primer by the area of the bolt face, the bolt face support is MUCH larger. If one studies overpressure rounds, the primer is simply flattened, and a crater created AROUND the firing pin. I have NEVER seen a primer that had a "tit" on it due to it pushing the firing pin back into the bolt. There has always been a dimple or dent. I believe that the only way Savage is going to reduce the bolt lift effort on their rifles is to redesign the ramp geometry that cocks the firing pin. This will mean that they have to reduce the angle of the ramp and reduce the amount of travel the firing pin travels. Perhaps not a bad thing, because they might even be able to use a heavier firing pin spring and still benefit from reduced bolt lift due to the mechanical advantage of the decreased angle of the cocking ramp. I don't know; I don't have the tooling and material available to experiment with that theory. I don't think Savage will change something that works well for them, as it would be a huge expenditure for them not only for R&D, but a tooling change as well just to alleviate the bolt lift effort that many don't see as a problem.
Bottom line is this: Savage has a great product, and the aftermarket is going to be supported by individuals willing to push the envelope in the spirit of fine-tuning and experimentation. This is a good thing, and I fully support that; it's what makes ingenuity such a great thing!
Kevin
I think you could improve your bolt lift with the lift kit. I know it did mine and I have not yet taken the time to polish anything. Stockade has a washer/roller bearing kit available for cheap. I would really listen to Dolomite as he, Axe, and I experimented with the bolt lift kits the last time this question came up. It was at that time, that I manufactured to 38spl case for myself and installed in my rifle. It did make a difference. I also noticed that when I adjusted my trigger, it seemed to make a small difference as well. I believe that is because I polished the engagement area on the trigger and the sear. I also lightened the pull of the trigger. I guess I need to stopped being lazy and polish the bolt parts to see if it will improve it anymore than it is. Oh yeah a longer bolt knob or bolt handle will also help reduce the amount of resistance that you will feel and you can get one for less then $40 from Stockade, or you can do what I did and order one from Bill's bolt knobs online, then thread your bolt handle and install! This worked well and the 7mag is almost effortless to cycle.
I did another lift kit on the 10fp that I'm building. Since there is no stock on it yet, it's hard to tell, but it felt like it reduced it slightly. I trimmed the cocking sleeve on both of the ones I did, because I did not want to mess with the threads on my BAS. It works fine and fires fine, plus it was much easier. I used a bench grinder and calipers to keep track of my measurements and to keep things as square as possible. Plus I figured if I screwed up, cocking sleeves are pretty cheap.
Whatever means you use to reduce the bolt lift the effort used to compress the firing pin spring is going to be the same. If you use a longer bolt handle the travel is lighter yet longer but the energy used is still the same. Same with recontouring the cocking ramp, the amount of energy needed to compress the spring is still the same unless the spring pressure itself is reduced which I do not advocate.
A longer bolt handle goes a long way to making the bolt handle feel lighter. There is not one thing that is going to reduce the feel of your bolt lift more so than a longer bolt handle. This is because of the mechanical advantage the additional leverage applies.
Something else to try is buy a quality firing pin spring like those available from Wolff.
http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%...2/mID54/dID247
There are other ways to mitigate the heavy feel of the bolt lift also but the spring is still going to require a certain amount of effort to be compressed. A bolt lift kit works by reducing friction and as long as the spring being compressed isn't being compressed more than before it works. And even if it does sometimes the benefit of the bolt lift kit outways the additional compression. Smoothing parts is another good way to alleviate the heavy bolt lift as is a quality grease. I suspect those who have used a bolt lift kit and saw no benefit have other things causing drag. If I remove my bolt lift kit from wither of my actions the bolt lift gets worse but then again my bolts have been gone through using this list below.
I generally follow this list when I go through any of my bolts and it does do a lot for smoothing things out. I don't do everything but most things on the list I do. I also use some molybendum disulfide impregnated grease and it helps a lot. Even after the grease is gone it still seems to provide some sort of lubricity to the metal parts. I bought a BIG tube of it at Walmart for less than $5. It comes in grease gun sized tubes so there is probably enough to last a lifetime for most.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillPa
Dolomite
This is an excellent list, thanks for posting it again Dolomite and thank you again Bill for the original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillPa
I’ve tried to find Bill’s post but had no luck. It would be nice to have this listed in the FAQ or Sticky.
The only thing I could add to this list:
De-burr and polish OD of the Cocking piece lock washer
Polish groove for the detent ball on bolt body.
Instead of #’s 8 and 9, I like to cut the face of the front baffle .006”
One thing I can say from experience is DO NOT cut the firing pin spring down!!!! I tried it, based on some morons post, and only cut 1/2 a coil off the first time. Bang! This did help reduce the bolt lift, however, the rifle did not fire after that! So I bought a Wolf and fixed it. Just FYI after reading somebodies post one the last go around for this topic.
Your new spring just masked the actual problem I do believe.