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Barrel overheating?
Morning All,
I have a new Savage Model 11/111 Hog Gun, 20" Threaded barrel, in .308. Topped with an 8x32x50.
After shooting 6 rounds, the last one fired (#6) sticks in the chamber until the barrel cools several hours later and then comes right out.
Does this with factory and reloaded ammo.
Reloads are under 2800 FPS & Factory stuff is right at 2800.
Doesn't matter what bullet. (Have only shot 140's & 165's)
Let me explain how I shoot now.
I get set up, load one round, sight & shoot.
remove fired case from gun.
Sight where round hit w/ spotting scope.
repete.
So, I am not loading the magazine full & just blasting away, I'm taking my time !
This gun has less than 90 rounds fired through it. I think the count is 84 right now.
I took a good sized factory case, JB welded it to a 12" rod and put polishing compound on it.
(Mothers aluminum polish - not abrasive)
and by hand, incerted it into the chamber and rotated it for like 5 minutes and a little in & out also.
trying to polish the chamber a little bit more. It seemed to help. I got 6 rounds fired before a stuck case.
I'm at a loss here. This is my first bolt gun.
I've always used gas guns.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
-aka:Cliff
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I would say this is not normal, my kid has a savage rifle she shoots f class with we load 215 bergers so hot that lapua brass wont hold a primer after 3 firings and don't have this problem even in 90 degree heat. If it is doing it with factory ammo and its not hornady super performance(Have seen this ammo cause problems) I would think a trip back to Savage may be in order. 2800fps is pretty fast for a 165 out of a 20 inch stick for a .308, I can see the 140's as we get 3000fps with 130 bergers in a 20 inch. I am not saying its not possible but 165 or 168's moving that fast is a pretty stout load. Her 215's are going 2600fps with a 28 inch barrel and 43.4 grains of varget which is hot. .308's don't seem to care that much about barrel length though like other calibers.
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I know this horse has been beat to death but check your primary extraction. It might be right on the edge of not enough and once things get warmed up you don't have enough to get the brass to start moving as you open the bolt.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
earl39
I know this horse has been beat to death but check your primary extraction. It might be right on the edge of not enough and once things get warmed up you don't have enough to get the brass to start moving as you open the bolt.
I understand what you are saying. not sure how to check it properly though.
When I did remove a case prior to this, I did check the extractor to make sure I didn't break it.
Do I "inspect it" with a magnifying glass? for wear marks?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pappy83
I would say this is not normal, my kid has a savage rifle she shoots f class with we load 215 bergers so hot that lapua brass wont hold a primer after 3 firings and don't have this problem even in 90 degree heat. If it is doing it with factory ammo and its not hornady super performance(Have seen this ammo cause problems) I would think a trip back to Savage may be in order. 2800fps is pretty fast for a 165 out of a 20 inch stick for a .308, I can see the 140's as we get 3000fps with 130 bergers in a 20 inch. I am not saying its not possible but 165 or 168's moving that fast is a pretty stout load. Her 215's are going 2600fps with a 28 inch barrel and 43.4 grains of varget which is hot. .308's don't seem to care that much about barrel length though like other calibers.
I totally agree.
and I have heard such great things about Savage, and now this.
Think I'll write the company.
I do live in Arizona, so ambient temps ar usually in the 90's++ ;)
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Is there a Savage Rep that trolls these Fourms?
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Did not know this was a problem on some rifles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pappy83
Did not know this was a problem on some rifles
I heard rumors - after buying the rifle.
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This is the first I've heard of anything like this and I spend an awful lot of time around here. Most people that have had a possible "lemon" issue and took it back up with Savage have ended up very satisfied with their processes to correct such issues. I would contact them with the issue and work with them. They may have you return the rifle and either correct or replace it if need be.
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It would be nice if you could look inside the chamber with a h/d. bore scope. had a similar concern.
can you mic a spent case?
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try this video and it will show you what to do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA
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Working on contantacting Savage now.
hehe.... yeah, I WISH I had a scope to look at the chamber.
Yes, I saved the case to mic it out and see what is up with the dimentions.
I have several others too with case imperfections where the body tapers down to the neck.
I thought that was the problem to start with, so I pulled several cases out of my reloading rotation.
but it is still happening.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
earl39
I think I understand what is being done.
Incert a round, lock n load, block firing pin from striking, & then remove the case.
I'm unclear at :15 secconds to :25.
It appears to being recocked, then blocked and removed.
Purpose of this?
What is being checked?
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you insert a fired case. then try to extract. if it does not extract place a feeler gauge between the ramp on the bolt handle and the ramp on the rear baffle and open the bolt (you can also place the feeler gauge between the baffle and action). if it extracts at that point you have a lack of primary extraction. there are a few fixes including replacing the bolt handle. in your case you may have to shoot it again if you can't get it to lock up on a fired case, and when it locks up try the feeler gauge trick.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
earl39
you insert a fired case. then try to extract. if it does not extract place a feeler gauge between the ramp on the bolt handle and the ramp on the rear baffle and open the bolt (you can also place the feeler gauge between the baffle and action). if it extracts at that point you have a lack of primary extraction. there are a few fixes including replacing the bolt handle. in your case you may have to shoot it again if you can't get it to lock up on a fired case, and when it locks up try the feeler gauge trick.
With 100% certanty, I can say that when it locks up/ sticks, the bolt handle will rotate but not move AT ALL rearward.
Zero movement.
The bolt handle will rotate up, but not to the rear. I even tried a dead blow hammer (2 LBS) on it. (yes, the bolt handle)
Letting it cool, adding Oil down the barrel and tapping the case out with and old arrow shaft and the dead blow hammer.
(very lightly tapping it) worked 2x ago, last time I just let it cool.
________________________________
I spoke with Savage and they said get the serial # and make arrangments to send it back in to them.
/ not happy about that, but I'd like it right.
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Better they fix it and you get a rifle you are satisfied with, than to continue clunking around trying to figure it out!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LoneWolf
Better they fix it and you get a rifle you are satisfied with, than to continue clunking around trying to figure it out!
AGREED ! ! !
I want to be able to shoot more than 6 bullets a day.
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Hearing issues like this makes me happy I was able to put 110 rounds through my Axis on the first day without issue when I put the whole build together myself!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LoneWolf
Hearing issues like this makes me happy I was able to put 110 rounds through my Axis on the first day without issue when I put the whole build together myself!
I really enjoy hearing guys say stuff like that and hope I just got the first one made on a Monday morning.
I have hope an am not discourage over this. I can overlap 2 shots at 100 yards, not 3 yet, but 2, 2x each.
in 6 shots. So I know it has potential, dispite the issues.
Can someone share with me what a FIRED .308 NECK measures outside diameter in "YOUR" rifle?
I have a digital caliper to check mine with for comparison.
I think my stuck case neck looked like this when it came out ( )
Yes, very strange.
Thanks.
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I can do it when I get home, but still at work here for another hour on the West Coast.
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Sure, thanks.
Its 3:30 here in AZ right now.
I'm off at 5
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http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3170db53.jpg[/IMG]
.33-.34 is what I came up with on Lake City brass
Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
With 100% certanty, I can say that when it locks up/ sticks, the bolt handle will rotate but not move AT ALL rearward.
Zero movement.
The bolt handle will rotate up, but not to the rear. I even tried a dead blow hammer (2 LBS) on it. (yes, the bolt handle)
Letting it cool, adding Oil down the barrel and tapping the case out with and old arrow shaft and the dead blow hammer.
(very lightly tapping it) worked 2x ago, last time I just let it cool.
________________________________
I spoke with Savage and they said get the serial # and make arrangments to send it back in to them.
/ not happy about that, but I'd like it right.
That is typical primary extraction failure.
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LOL, yes, stuck case = extraction failure.
My case measured .34 also. (not just on the fired case/ also on an unfired case/ .34)
I'm thinking it's a tube issue really, maybe right at the tightest tolerance.
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Guns Grouping - just sharing
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100 yards off a Bipod. No gun vise.
WooHoo, got my photo bucket up.
No I can share some picks.
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What brand of ammo/brass are you shooting? If your fired case neck measures the same diameter as the case neck of a loaded round something is amiss. I'd have to check my 308 brass again, but I know the neck expands a good 3-5 thou larger than the loaded round diameter.
To give you an idea, my 338 lapua loaded rounds measure .367 at the neck and fired rounds are .372.
If your necks aren't expanding at least a couple thousandths over loaded round diameter then I'd say you have a tight chamber issue or bad brass.
If its a simple primary extraction issue you can fix it yourself. If you wanna make a trip down to Tucson I'll help you sort it out.
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
Is that group with cheapo ball ammo? Cuz I've not ever seen a 308 savage shoot worse than moa with match ammo or handloads. But cheapo ammo tends to produce a shotgun pattern similar to what you posted...
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
bodywerks
What brand of ammo/brass are you shooting? If your fired case neck measures the same diameter as the case neck of a loaded round something is amiss. I'd have to check my 308 brass again, but I know the neck expands a good 3-5 thou larger than the loaded round diameter.
To give you an idea, my 338 lapua loaded rounds measure .367 at the neck and fired rounds are .372.
If your necks aren't expanding at least a couple thousandths over loaded round diameter then I'd say you have a tight chamber issue or bad brass.
If its a simple primary extraction issue you can fix it yourself. If you wanna make a trip down to Tucson I'll help you sort it out.
PCR/XLR/TAC338
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
I completely understand that.
and that makes sense. when the barrel heats up, and the case is fired, 1) the case tries to enlarge (normally) and 2) the barrel heating up makes the chamber shrink, thus sticking the casing until it cools off. - duh factor. lol.
The brass is a mix of LC, & Winchester. Both have stuck on me.
this last time was Winchester, hand selected by me for zero case blemishes.
I love the stock on your rig.
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Cliff,
Have you tried the feeler gauge (like the u-tube vid) when you had a stuck case? To at least eliminate the primary extraction when there is some resistance (warm/hot chamber) that your existing extraction cannot overcome? If you mentioned you had I apologize for askin and beatin the dead horse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pitsnipe
Cliff,
Have you tried the feeler gauge (like the u-tube vid) when you had a stuck case? To at least eliminate the primary extraction when there is some resistance (warm/hot chamber) that your existing extraction cannot overcome? If you mentioned you had I apologize for askin and beatin the dead horse.
No, I have not.
I have been at the range and it has unexpectantly "siezed" on me.
I did mention that when it happens, the bolt handle will rotate but not pull back.
I have taken a 2 LB dead blow hammer and tapped the handle, but it would not release.
The first couple of times, I took the gun home and oiled it well, down the barrel, let it sit,
and tapped it out with an old arrow shaft after it cooled.
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Cliff,
Yes, the bolt will lift up but it wont cam the brass out of the chamber enough to finish the extraction. That is where the feeler gauge comes in. To give you the leverage you don't have (normal/adequate primary extraction) to open (slide back, not lift up) the bolt without a dead blow hammer or letting it cool. Yes, it sounds like your chamber is "snug" that isn't necessarily a bad thing. IF you have enough leverage/primary extraction to over come it. My FLCP-k in .308 is snug. And after a 20 round string in less than 20 minutes without adequate primary extraction I wouldn't get close to taking out the 5th shot. let alone all 20 as smooth as the first. I'm just sayin, eliminate this as a possibility the next time you shoot it. Come prepared with some feeler gauges (less than $7.00 at your local auto supply) and see if that works. From there the fix is moderately easy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
pitsnipe
Cliff,
Yes, the bolt will lift up but it wont cam the brass out of the chamber enough to finish the extraction. That is where the feeler gauge comes in. To give you the leverage you don't have (normal/adequate primary extraction) to open (slide back, not lift up) the bolt without a dead blow hammer or letting it cool. Yes, it sounds like your chamber is "snug" that isn't necessarily a bad thing. IF you have enough leverage/primary extraction to over come it. My FLCP-k in .308 is snug. And after a 20 round string in less than 20 minutes without adequate primary extraction I wouldn't get close to taking out the 5th shot. let alone all 20 as smooth as the first. I'm just sayin, eliminate this as a possibility the next time you shoot it. Come prepared with some feeler gauges (less than $7.00 at your local auto supply) and see if that works. From there the fix is moderately easy.
10-4.
Last time out I even forgot my spotting scope. =( and I do have a range bag. LOL
I have feeler gauges I can take. (several sets)
Thank you for the help and passing some knowledge down. I'm still learning at 50 !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
I completely understand that.
and that makes sense. when the barrel heats up, and the case is fired, 1) the case tries to enlarge (normally) and 2) the barrel heating up makes the chamber shrink, thus sticking the casing until it cools off. - duh factor. lol.
The brass is a mix of LC, & Winchester. Both have stuck on me.
this last time was Winchester, hand selected by me for zero case blemishes.
I love the stock on your rig.
Steel DOES NOT SHRINK when heated it shrinks when it cools.
The reloads you are using are they full length sized or neck sized.. I asked because I have a savage 116 in 270 and 7mm, my full length sized brass extracts easily upon firing but when I neck size my brass and shoot it it is much harder to remove. If you are getting case damage then you may want to look at a possible ruff chamber.. that was the culprit in my case... a light polishing solved the problem!
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
big norm
Steel DOES NOT SHRINK when heated it shrinks when it cools.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
Correct except when it expands in this case the barrel narrows slightly. Thats why unless a high quality barrel, barrels shoot better when they are warmed up vise the infamous "cold bore" shot.
Of course the barrel can get to hot and throw off accuracy as well.
Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2
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Hahahaha, I see the confusion gentlemen.
I said "Chamber" shrinks. / when the steel expands, the chamber shrinks.
Quote:
and 2) the barrel heating up makes the chamber shrink,
You are both correct. ;)
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Aaahhhhh! That's what I get for reading fast and thinking slow
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
I completely understand that.
and that makes sense. when the barrel heats up, and the case is fired, 1) the case tries to enlarge (normally) and 2) the barrel heating up makes the chamber shrink, thus sticking the casing until it cools off. - duh factor. lol.
The brass is a mix of LC, & Winchester. Both have stuck on me.
this last time was Winchester, hand selected by me for zero case blemishes.
I love the stock on your rig.
That's not what I said, at all. You'll have to reread my post a little slower, cuz my post has nothing to do with heat.
And A barrel that heats up doesn't shrink a chamber, it expands it. It doesnt even shorten the chamber, it lengthens it - its a moot point to argue though because your barrel is not heating up enough to cause even the slightest problem, although the heat may be revealing the true problem.
You have a primary extraction issue or an improperly reamed chamber or a headspace issue. Firing slower or less rounds is not the solution. A properly set up rifle should be able to fire dozens of rounds per minute without issue.
if you are firing reloads then your loads are too hot. And if they're reloads then you definitely have problems, because no reload should shoot a group as big as you posted.
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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Back to what I was talking about with neck expansion. You said your fired case necks measure the same as a loaded case neck? You need to measure again, because there should be at least a .005 difference. I just measured my 308 stuff. Loaded neck measures .3375, fired neck is .3440. Yours should be similar.
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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I will get my electronic mic and measure 3 cases.
the last one stuck and one reload and maybe a factory one.
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The necks will all expand the same amount. This measurement won't tell you anything about the problem you're having. That is- unless the fired case neck diameter is nearly identical to your loaded case neck diameter. That would indicate an improperly cut chamber(highly unlikely).
So long as the fired cases measure .342-.344 you're good.
I still think your issue is a lack of primary extraction or a dirty/rough chamber. Both are home remedies
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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Last stuck case measures 0.345 (fired)
Factory round measures 0.340 (unfired)
One of my reloads measures 0.338 (unfired)
I think I have a tight chamber issue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LoneWolf
Correct except when it expands in this case the barrel narrows slightly.
Still trying to grasp this. When things get hot, molecules move further apart. This has the effect of lengthening a surface. only one way to go or did I miss something in physics.....which is possible due to the very HOT Physics instructor. LOL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
Last stuck case measures 0.345 (fired)
Factory round measures 0.340 (unfired)
One of my reloads measures 0.338 (unfired)
I think I have a tight chamber issue.
That is not a tight chamber issue. You are trying to over think things. It is primary extraction. But if you really want to insist that it is a tight chamber just send it back to savage and they will polish the chamber and the problem will go away for maybe 20 rounds if you are lucky or you can follow the advice of those of us that have dealt with the problem and rule it out or find we are right. Either way you will be working on one thing at a time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
aka:Cliff
Last stuck case measures 0.345 (fired)
Factory round measures 0.340 (unfired)
One of my reloads measures 0.338 (unfired)
I think I have a tight chamber issue.
Those measurements are normal. They have nothing to do with a tight chamber. If your brass is coming out without unexplained nicks, dents, or rings on it then your chamber is likely fine, too.
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps290ebdd0.jpg
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This is simple. You can find out if you are right or the others claiming primary extraction is the root cause are on target. Do the feeler gauge test. If it works then it is Primary Extraction, an issue that is common. If it does not then you are the rare case that has a chamber with a problem. In either case we have a dead horse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
stangfish
This is simple. You can find out if you are right or the others claiming primary extraction is the root cause are on target. Do the feeler gauge test. If it works then it is Primary Extraction, an issue that is common. If it does not then you are the rare case that has a chamber with a problem. In either case we have a dead horse.
You forgot this Stang :deadhorse:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
earl39
That is not a tight chamber issue. You are trying to over think things. It is primary extraction. But if you really want to insist that it is a tight chamber just send it back to savage and they will polish the chamber and the problem will go away for maybe 20 rounds if you are lucky or you can follow the advice of those of us that have dealt with the problem and rule it out or find we are right. Either way you will be working on one thing at a time.
I understand Earl.
But in 100 degree weather, I shoot 6 rounds in less than 5 minutes, and stick or can not extract my 6th round. I take the gun home after doing nothing to it, let it cool for 3 hours and the round extracts perfectly & easily. Is it an extraction issue or a tight chamber?
Honestly I don't know, but I'm going with what I do know.
I have to call Savage back later today but can take feeler gauges to the indoor range and shoot a box off and try and get it to stick and see what I come up with for you.
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OK, JUST back from shooting. Yup, 5 rounds shot and the 6 one fired but is now stuck in the chamber.
Feeler gage says .044", when I lift the bolt handle and does not move rearward.
Will let it cool and post back when/if it comes out & how.