Chasing Bugholes

After seeing so many targets posted, with excellent groups, and then looking at my own targets got me to wondering....am I chasing those small groups? With the M11 it was easy, the groups were right around 1inch. With the 12 VLP (both are .223 BTW), have been able to get most < 1inch and a few < .5 inch.

Now, it had been a few years since I had been shooting and have been at it now since March of this year, so suspect I am being impatient. So what would you suggest to get those groups even smaller?

Add&#39;l info - working up loads - 69gr SMK, Varget, trying different brass. Have some Bergger 70gr VLD and 77gr Match, plus some 53gr and 77gr SMK in addition to the 69&#39;s. 12VLP with a 1:7 twist. Getting as much range time as work allows - get to send maybe 25-50 rounds down range every couple of weeks (that may be what is need more than anything).

Thanks in advance for any input - you guys are always great.

Mike,
The best way to shoot small groups is practice. Like the old saying goes, "How do you get to Carnegie hall, practice, practice, practice."

Some other things to consider, you need a good solid front rest, (A bi-pod or a mechanical rest, or even sand bags) and rear bag to shoot small groups. A simple set of wind flags will make a heck of a difference, all you need is a few pieces of surveyors tape out at different yardages. (set around 10, 40, and 75 yards) A good scope is a must, it don&#39;t have to be expensive, but it has to function, and having a light cross hair helps. Get some small dot targets (Wally world has them.)remember aim small shoot small. Last, try some other powders The ticket in the 1 in 9 223s looks to be N133 with a 52/53 gr match flat back bullet, I have seen a few guns shoot 5 shoot 100 yard groups down in the .2&#39;s. (Remember what works in others gun may not work in yours, and vise versa so it takes some experimentation) PLAY WITH SEATING DEPTH !!!

I always got more consistant groups with bergers. In my 1:7 the 80 gr boatails shot tight, jammed. Seems like the best groups I got were over N140 with the berger 140s.

Tightest shooting out of that rifle was 52 gr amaxes over 27 gr of varget at 2.32" which is super hot. Shot about .2"-.3". You should be able to hit 1/4 moa with most any match bullet.

Yep, those Bergers are pretty awesome. I shot my best 200 yard group with Bergers this weekend (with my Lothar Walther .308 Winchester barrel). I know 1 Shot can do better but I&#39;ll keep trying!

[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/168grBerger200yards.jpg?t=1249318607[/img]

Bullet: Berger 168 gr. HPBT Match
Powder: Hodgdon Varget 43.5 grs
Primer: CCI-BR2
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.905 (2.291 Base to Ogive with Stoney Point)
Comments: 0.020 Bullet Jump

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbcaster45

Yep, those Bergers are pretty awesome. I shot my best 200 yard group with Bergers this weekend (with my Lothar Walther .308 Winchester barrel). I know 1 Shot can do better but I&#39;ll keep trying!

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..LOL...It&#39;ll still hit a critter at 200... ;)...

...On your VLP 1-7 twist I&#39;ld go with the 77&#39;s, Varget, 205prs, & lapua brass..Then just work on it till it comes in...lol... ;)...

...3/100 with 69gr Sie&#39;s...

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/SMK.jpg[/img]

Thanks for the input guys, take all the ideas and hints ya got.

1shot, that is some NICE shootin...have admired the photo of that group before.

82boy, yes - practice is the only way to get there, at least for me. Have 25 rounds of the 69gr SMK loaded up for this weekend, may try some of the 53&#39;s as well - or the 77&#39;s. Going to try to get to a match (to watch not shoot) this weekend, see if I can learn anything there.

OK more reading and new question. If loading say 52-53gr bullets for the 1:7 twist, would I want to start on the lower end of the load data powder wise? OR would load developement be the same as any other?

Realize that the 7 twist is not ideal for the 50&#39;s, but wondering if a reduced load would have them shoot better. Have some 77 SMK and Bergers to load, and will give one (or both) a try this weekend.

As always, you guys are a big help.

..Run the 52&#39;s at 25.4grs varget set at .015 off the lands...Set the 77&#39;s up at 22grs. varget at .015 off also & show me the targets.... ;)...Maybe I can tune you up some...lol.. :)

there will be a wave in the accussery as you go through the powder charge range. I have never found a full speed charge that gave me the best. If you shooting shorter range targets and you want to save a little powder you can go for a lower charge node. the larger powder charger will shoot a little flatter as you increase the distance.

Great stuff, Thanks - the 69gr SMK are loaded with 24.4gr of Varget, so will load up some 53gr and 77gr tonight (think one of em might go into some Lapua brass I bought the other in some new WW brass). Have a day off planned for Friday, so will try to get out early before the heat sets in - morning temps are in the upper 70&#39;s to 80 with highs around 100 - yikes!!

1Shot, will take you up on the offer and will post some targets after shooting on Friday - Thanks,

Edit: loaded 10each of the following:
53gr SMK over 25.4gr Varget, Rem once fired brass, Rem 71/2BR primers
77gr SMK over 22gr of Varget, Rem once fired brass Rem 71/2BR primers
69gr SMK over 22gr of H322, Lapua brass-new, Rem71/2BR primers

Plus the 69gr SMK over 24.4gr Varget, Rem once fired brass, Rem 71/2BR primes

Printed some small 100m Benchrest targets off, as well as a couple of others on some heavy stock.

No matter how bad/good they are promise to post them after Friday&#39;s outing.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Couldn&#39;t manage a bughole today, but this was my best 200 yard group. I&#39;m going to try seating out next time and hopefully I&#39;ll see some improvement. Stay sharp 1 Shot! PB aims to improve!

[img width=600 height=336]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Model12223Remington.jpg?t=1249444158[/img]

[img width=600 height=390]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/Hornady55grMolyV-Max200yards.jpg?[/img]

Bullet: Hornady 55 gr. V-Max with Moly Coat
Powder: Accurate 2230-C 24.6 grs.
Primer: CCI-450
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.250

very nice, pbcaster45..and @200 yds!! Would get a heck yeah! out of me!

...I guess I&#39;m going to have to work on my plinker load here real soon...you&#39;re making me feel bad..lol..My plinker load is going to run 40gr Sie. HP&#39;s with 748....My truck gun loves 40gr Bergers with VV-133... ;)...

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/berg.jpg[/img]

throw you guys a curve..5 shots@100 yards..35gr V max with 24.5gr of 10X from a 16" handgun.
[img width=337 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/gcidso123/22335gr4JPG.jpg[/img]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...3/100_4195.jpg

WITH A PISTOL?! Dagnabit! The bar just got higher!

...Oh, so now we want to play hardball huh...lol...Where can I find a cheap Striker.. ???...

Well, it&#39;s Friday and I made it out to the range - can&#39;t say I&#39;m all that excited to be showing these, but I did promise I would. It was between 85-90 degree by 8:30 a.m., maybe a 5mph breese once in a while.

First one 77gr SMK, 22gr Varget, OAL 2.358, once fired Rem brass, Rem 7.5 prm, - 0.869 inches
[img width=396 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SnyF40n7MFI/AAAAAAAAAjs/pCYbyzxYfis/s512/77SMK8709.jpg[/img]

Next the 53gr SMK, 25.4 Varget, OAL 2.350, same brass/primer - 1.233 inches
[img width=370 height=450]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SnyF6Cs_PcI/AAAAAAAAAj4/k1e47nmoPfg/s512/53SMK8709..jpg[/img]

Also ran the 69s
69gr SMK, 24.4 H322, OAL 2.353, Lapua brass(new)same prime, - 0.676 inches
[img width=401 height=450]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SnyF5PdHimI/AAAAAAAAAjw/629Il8pTnYw/s512/69SMK7809.jpg[/img]

And last
69gr SMK, 24.4 Varget, OAL 2.353, once fired Remington brass/same prime, - 0.620 inches
[img width=356 height=450]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/SnyF5qcQ02I/AAAAAAAAAj0/hQTb_-lGRRU/s512/69SMK8709-Rem.jpg[/img]

Besides the driver not bad, but a loonnngggg way from bughole land = LOL. 1shot (or anyone else) any thoughts?

...Well they look like they could use another .5 of a grain of powder...The 69&#39;s & varget bump it .3 & go again...It&#39;s all part of chasing the hole...lol... ;)

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/GG.jpg[/img]

lol...you are right there, at least chasing the hole is fun!!

Is it the light or is that a .223 AI in your last photo?

...It&#39;s a little .221 AI Fireball...lol..With a 52gr Sie match stuck in it.. ;D..It&#39;ll shoot Nosler 50&#39;s just as good..lol.. :o...

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/FB1.jpg[/img]

Sweet, a AI Fireball...new one to me, but like it!! Looks like you shoot it as well as the .223 lol...

Got a little range time late this morning, with some of the 69&#39;s and 24.7gr of Varget, starting to see some promise with the combo now. A couple of sub .5in and one .297 4 of 5, but the driver blew it to a .863 on the one of the rounds. Bit more wind today, around 12-15 mph (got to learn how to read that). Anyhow think I will bump the load by .2 - or 24.9gr, and focus on the 69 Sierra match for now (plus that is the one bullet I have the most of). Only change I have made is, was using a Lee Powder measure with the Lee scale and have changed that out to the same powder measure, but using a RCBS digital scale to confirm the throw from the powder measure - much better readings than I was getting from the balance scale from Lee.

.221 Fireball, how long before a VarTarg shows up? lol ;)

Been debating on one of those for the model 11 build....hmmm....back to the real world.

Patrick, got to thinking about part of your post today while shooting some fresh loads....the part about the solid front rest and rear bag. Using a Caldwell Rock for a front rest, it does ok - though I think the bag could be better, just not sure what to look fro. The rear bag is the Deluxe one, and it DOES NOT sit flat and I find always having to reset after each shot, most of the time anyhow. Best shots are when the rifle returns without shifting left or right after a shot. Rear bag almost always has to be moved to get back on target...any recommendations on a rear bag?

BTW, have got to make some of those wind flags would have been a big help today..

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Mike,
The best way to shoot small groups is practice. Like the old saying goes, "How do you get to Carnegie hall, practice, practice, practice."

Some other things to consider, you need a good solid front rest, (A bi-pod or a mechanical rest, or even sand bags) and rear bag to shoot small groups. A simple set of wind flags will make a heck of a difference, all you need is a few pieces of surveyors tape out at different yardages. (set around 10, 40, and 75 yards) A good scope is a must, it don&#39;t have to be expensive, but it has to function, and having a light cross hair helps. Get some small dot targets (Wally world has them.)remember aim small shoot small. Last, try some other powders The ticket in the 1 in 9 223s looks to be N133 with a 52/53 gr match flat back bullet, I have seen a few guns shoot 5 shoot 100 yard groups down in the .2&#39;s. (Remember what works in others gun may not work in yours, and vise versa so it takes some experimentation) PLAY WITH SEATING DEPTH !!!

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I like Protektor bags they do great.
http://www.protektormodel.com/
If looking for a new bag I would get something with a heavy bottom, like the 14B.5CDSDBB bag. You may get by with your old bag and a donut.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/...rest-Equipment
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/...rest-Equipment
A friend of mine is making top notch bags if your interested.
http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/cla...uery=retrieval

Shooting without flags is a waste of time.

...I&#39;ve shot many a hole with this cheap but affective setup...It&#39;s easier to carry in my shooting bag than the Caldwell br..lol...My buddy keeps saying he&#39;s going to throw that cheap plastic rest away if I don&#39;t stop useing it... >:(...

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/rg2.jpg[/img]

....5/100....

[img width=600 height=449]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/nos.jpg[/img]

...You do a follow up on those loads yet... :-\

Funny you should ask...

From last weekend the 69gr SMK with 24.7 Varget (did not get to print the same target) 4 of the 5 shots look good, there is just that one..0.856
[img width=397 height=450]http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/Sodsz8xzjyI/AAAAAAAAAkw/gMGBgZXAeEE/s512/69SMK8809V247.jpg[/img]

Found some CCI BR4 primers and picked some up, decided to try them (yeah I know added another variable)
but seem the grouping was not bad with them and the 69SMK.

Today 69gr SMK, with 24.4 Varget (again) but with CCI BR4 Primers(0.534):
[img width=370 height=450]http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/Sods0SOUI1I/AAAAAAAAAk0/YqWYXjlIoSE/s512/69SMK81509BR4.jpg[/img]

And the 77gr SMK, 22.5 Varget, CCI BR4 primers(1.110):
[img width=341 height=450]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5mQjiruUDT0/Sods1CTogvI/AAAAAAAAAk4/MwBPfO0zzKU/s512/77SMK8809BR4.jpg[/img]

Additional data from today&#39;s range visit!!

Loaded some 69gr SMK, 23.9gr H4895, Lapua brass, CCI BR4 primer - 1.012

69gr SMK, 24.7 Varget, Rem 71/2 primer, Rem brass - not bad .315 group of 4, the 5th one pushed the 5 shot group to .848

Wanted to try the accurate load from the Sierra manual for the 53gr SMK, using 26.9gr H335, Lapua brass and CCI BR4 primer. First shot fired - nothing not on paper, hmmmmm used one of the 69gr MK loads, right where it was supposed to be, another 53gr - still nothing. Aim high then low, nothing. Went ahead with the other loads, and after I finished tried the 53&#39;s again - this time with set the rifle up and then look over the scope to see if I could find impact....about 30 yd down range a nice cloud of gray smoke - guy next to me (we had already discussed) ask after the next round if I had tried the 53&#39;s again because he saw the gray smoke too. Guess the near 3300fps and the 7 twist are just to much for the 53&#39;s. Have read about this before, never seen it. So, no more 53gr SMK and H335 in the 7 twist rifle. :o

Mike, I lost some 105gr 6mm bergers @ about 30yds. I was using to slow of powder and the bullets just turned to a puff of smoke. went to a faster powder and actually shot them @ 300fps faster and didnt lose any. In your case I would say that twist is way to fast for 53s.

Still kind of a neat thing to see though :D

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevec

Still kind of a neat thing to see though :D

Steve

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Yeah Steve, it was fun to watch :D as much as I hate to admit it, I fired a couple of em just to watch them.

To me, shooting bugholes is like playing golf. At first your improvement is by leaps and bounds, until you get to the point where you are pretty descent.

From there the improvement is agonizingly slow. Lots of $ for new equipment. You read everything that you can find, take the advise of others that are better than you and most of it only serves to screw you up. But, you keep trying and hang onto the things that work.

Despite this, you will have days where it seems that you have never shot a rifle/ swung a club before.

Then comes the glorious day when the stars all aline and you have an epithany, "This is probalbly as good as I am going to get."

Because no one has ever shot a .000 group or an 18 in golf. From that point forward, you can just relax and enjoy the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeCTX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevec

Still kind of a neat thing to see though :D

Steve

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Yeah Steve, it was fun to watch :D as much as I hate to admit it, I fired a couple of em just to watch them.

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I actually had a buddy shoot mine so I could stand off to the side (and behind) and watch them blow. Morbid curiosity I guess. ;D
Steve

BrentWin, good post...and yet it all comes down to practice as much as anything.

Good thing I enjoy shooting, it may take a while :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1Shot

...You do a follow up on those loads yet... :-\

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Thanks to everyone for their input and special Thanks to 1shot...

Guessing at this point more range time and some tweaking of the 69&#39;s is in order. After I can get to where I shoot a consistent group, then try to tighten them up.

As always any additional thoughts/ideas are welcome.

Well, here&#39;s today attempt. No bugholes but this is my favorite load in my Lothar Walther Model 12 (.223 Remington). Five shots at 100 yards.

[img width=600 height=377]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/06FiveShots100yardsSavageModel12.jpg?[/img]

Bullet: Hornady 40 gr. V-Max with Moly Coat
Powder: Accurate 2230-C 26.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-450
Case: Lapua
LOAL: 2.272 (1.881 with Stoney Point, for 0.015 bullet jump)

Wasn&#39;t shooting too bad with the Tikka Lite 30-06 either! Three shots at 100 yards.

[img width=600 height=398]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/pbcaster45/08ThreeShots100yardsTikkaLite30-06.jpg?t=1250651728[/img]

Bullet: Nosler 168 gr. Ballistic Tip
Powder: IMR-4064 49.0 grs.
Primer: Federal 210
Case: Federal
LOAL: 3.350 (2.720 base to ogive with Stoney Point gage)
Comments: Neck sized with Forster Bump Die and .332 insert. Bullets seated so that ogive about .018 short of rifling. Magazine is long enough to allow LOAL of 3.370.

Nice shooting with both rifles pbcaster45, on the 223 what twist is the Lothar Walther barrel?

It&#39;s a 1:12. I love Lothar Walther Barrels, tough steel and no fouling. ;D

Thanks pbcaster45 :)

Wanted to give an update from today&#39;s visit to the range. Had some 69 gr SMK, plus some Berger 70 gr VLD&#39;s (with different seating depth). All loaded with 24.9 gr Varget, shot OK, a few 3 hole groups that were nice, but became less than that with the 4 or 5th shot.

But I did get my "Bughole" group ;D - Sort of.... :o

There was a guy I have been talking with at the range, and he had his TAC 20 there - he had shown me photos of it - really nice looking rifle. One of Fred&#39;s benchrest stocks, Savage target action - RB/LP, Pac-Nor barrel, with a Burris Black Diamond 8-32x50. He offered to let me shoot a 5 shot group so I took him up on the offer. Dang, that is one fine shootin rifle, the TAC 20 is a real joy to shot (I understand now Sinman). Pretty much shot the center out of a benchrest target, would guess the group was around .2 inch or less - did not want to take his target since he was still going to use the other side of it.

Of course he was shooting it even better, but these were his fire-forming loads, not even match loads. Fred&#39;s stock was perfect - and the Pac-Nor, well nice barrel.

chasing bugholes is fun for sure, but admittedly a tough learning curve. getting inside of 1moa is was fairly easy, but from that point forward it is a new discipline, one of the things i have learned is a rifle set up for 1000yd shooting is a different animal than one for 100yd shooting, if your using a 1000yd rig to chase bugholes and 1000yd loads, then 100yds is a compromise of sorts. a dedicated 100yd load should do bugholes no doubt, but i have never gotten a bug hole group out of my rifle at 100yds but shot a 4x 5 shot group at 300yds w/ it yesterday that measured 1.4", i&#39;ll take that anyday over a 100yd bughole group, so kinda look at the big picture and see what your goal is. i may someday build a slower flat based bullet load to try to bughole my rifle, but i set my goal at 1000yds and built a load around that goal. my worst 5 shot group was at just over 4" so i had a fun day of shooting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hershey

chasing bugholes is fun for sure, but admittedly a tough learning curve... it is a new discipline..

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...I get a kick out of it...lol...Now if I had the open range to shoot a 1000yds. I&#39;ld just build me a cannon...AKA..338 EDGE.. ;)...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hershey

chasing bugholes is fun for sure, but admittedly a tough learning curve. getting inside of 1moa is was fairly easy, but from that point forward it is a new discipline, one of the things i have learned is a rifle set up for 1000yd shooting is a different animal than one for 100yd shooting, if your using a 1000yd rig to chase bugholes and 1000yd loads, then 100yds is a compromise of sorts. a dedicated 100yd load should do bugholes no doubt, but i have never gotten a bug hole group out of my rifle at 100yds but shot a 4x 5 shot group at 300yds w/ it yesterday that measured 1.4", i&#39;ll take that anyday over a 100yd bughole group, so kinda look at the big picture and see what your goal is. i may someday build a slower flat based bullet load to try to bughole my rifle, but i set my goal at 1000yds and built a load around that goal. my worst 5 shot group was at just over 4" so i had a fun day of shooting.

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Think you have a very good point hershey...and the 12VLP with a 7 twist may not be the right &#39;tool&#39; for what I am wanting to do. One of the reasons looking at a 12 or 14 twist barrel to swap out and see how thing go with a slower twist, and lighter weight bullet than the 69-80 gr.

After shooting the small .20s it got me to thinking completely different than I had been. Of course also found the action screws had come lose as well. Had not checked them after the first few visits and they had become quite lose...note to self, check more often. :)

when I&#39;m working up loads i load in .5 gr. increments and take various powders using the same case,primer and head so the only difference is the powder and charge .I&#39;m still chasing myself best group so far is .365 center to center
[img width=600 height=450]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/lal357/savagetiger.jpg[/img]

guns is a 308 savage tigershark w\Bushnell 8x32x44mm scope .
I&#39;m getting the most consisty with rl-15,varget and benchmark (all around .500 or under ) but as said before nothing can replace range time

Shot this one the other day. Tried some 68gr bergers. I hope to get to try them again before sunday, I&#39;d like to take this load to Denton.

Best five shot group I have ever shot. .103 center to center!


[img width=600 height=450]http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff108/stevecphoto/100_0651.jpg[/img]

Steve

Now that is smokin Steve, really nice shootin.... .103, very nice.

Thanks for posting, was this using the new rest as well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevec

Shot this one the other day. Tried some 68gr bergers. I hope to get to try them again before sunday, I&#39;d like to take this load to Denton.

Best five shot group I have ever shot. .103 center to center!


[img width=600 height=450]http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff108/stevecphoto/100_0651.jpg[/img]

Steve

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Yes, I was using my new rest. Need to try this load again and make sure its not a fluke!
Rained all night and the range I use is out in the middle of a friends pasture so it may be a few days. :&#39;(

Steve