Need Opinions- Once-Fired .223 LC / 7 Brass BAD Primers (?)

Hey All- I recently bought a 500 count lot of once-fired .223 brass that is sized, trimmed and primed. The brass is LC/7. I bought it privately but it originally came from Scharch (sp) / Top Brass. The brass was in a sealed plastic bag, along with dissecant ( the dissecant which had ripped open in transit I suppose). So I carefully cleaned off the drying material prior to use, inside and out. Also in the bag was a small note stating the primers were CCI and IIRC the number 401. I've since lost the paper.

I loaded up 20 rounds Sunday night and went shooting yesterday morning.

Out of 20 rounds, 4 did not detonate. Upon examination, the primers in these four instances look like they might be "hard"; the firing pin impressions are not as deep as on the detonated cartridges (I realize this may have more to do with detonation than anything else). I did try to fire the four in question again, and again received only "clicks"...no boom!

Wondering what to do; the brass looks great- no defects etc. I'm wondering if it could be a bad batch of primers?

Should I remove the primers and re-prime with known good primers (I've reloaded somewhere in the area of 250 rounds using other brass and Remington 7 1/2 BR primers with NO failures- same gun.

Even though I'm a once removed buyer, should I contact Top Brass?

Certainly NOT blaming seller- I'm sure he did not know. Any suggestions are welcome- Thanks! Brian

One time in my reloading "path" I purchased several items of reloading "stuff" and included in it was a box of 357 primed, sized and trimmed brass. It was nice and shiny and the primers looked just fine.

So, I loaded 'em with a mid-range load of powder and lead bullets. When I went to the range about 30% of the bullets would shoot, and I had two (yes 2) hang-fires. Now, that was my first (and last) experience with hang-fires. I can only assume that somehow the primers either gathered some moisture, or flat out got wet and then dried out.

I pulled the bullets that did not fire, decamped 'em (Make sure you are wearing safety glasses when you do this….and in addition I usually put a small piece of plywood between me and the brass. Probably over caution….but hey!!) The brass was fine and I'm sure I'm still shooting some of it today.

So, what I'm saying is I would decap 'em and replace the primers with what I know are good ones.

Dave

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So, what I'm saying is I would decap 'em and replace the primers with what I know are good ones.

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Me too.

Punch out a few of the primers, hit them with a hammer and see if they go BANG! If they do, good chance that the cases have the shoulders pushed back too far when resized and the case is being pushed forward by the firing pin and not getting a hard enough strike.
Also, try pulling the bullets out a bit to increase the OAL. With the bullets jamed into the lands, the firing pin can't push the case forward. See if that makes any difference. Don't blame the primers till you've checked everything else. Been there, done that and have never had a bad primer.

I would have to wonder more if the desiccant hasn't somehow sucked the life out of the primers. That stuff can do weird things. If it were me I would chamber each case(unloaded) and fire the primers and then decap and re prime, just to be safe.

Good luck
Gary

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Originally Posted by GaryB

I would have to wonder more if the desiccant hasn't somehow sucked the life out of the primers. That stuff can do weird things. If it were me I would chamber each case(unloaded) and fire the primers and then decap and re prime, just to be safe.

Good luck
Gary

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Wear ear protection!! But I would agree with this method.

Dave

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

Wear ear protection!! But I would agree with this method.

Dave

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Thanks all! I'm gonna "pop a cap...or 480:eek:" I sincerely hope it isnt a shoulder problem. That would mean the brass is junk

Dang computer I'm on wont let me edit for some reason. ANYWAY- IF there is a shoulder problem- is the brass junk? How would I correct that (posture lessons for slouching cases?)? Brian

Its possible that some of the primers used are military grade. the cups are defently harder.
Pull-em apart...resize/deprime.....get the brass prep,d and load-em-up
I seriously dought theres anything wrong with the brass.

I doubt the brass is junk. If your really concerned about that…..then just load up 20 or 25 rounds….full size 'em first and go to the range. Then you will know.

Dave

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I doubt the brass is junk. If your really concerned about that…..then just load up 20 or 25 rounds….full size 'em first and go to the range. Then you will know.

Dave

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I agree.
You could even seat the bullets into the lands with a min. charge, then the brass would stretch some to fill the chamber.
Just a thought.

Good info. and as always, thanks! Something to keep me busy...LOL. Brian

Probably nothing wrong with the brass or primers. If you can get them to fire, the brass will fireform to fit your chamber. Once that is done, make sure when your resize that you don't push the shoulders back too far and run into the same problem again. Take what you have already loaded, pull the bullets out some to increase the OAL. (bullets jammed into the lands) If there's no problems with the primers, the rounds should fire and the brass will form to your chamber.

I'm going to make this statement again at the risk of sounding obstinate. First of all, primers….however difficult at the present time seem to be difficult to obtain….yet I will also state that this is now not as sever as it was a few months ago….PRIMERS ARE CHEAP!! So, why would anyone want to screw around with primers from an unknown source? Primers that may have been subjected to who knows what?

I know this from first hand experience in loading up 50 rounds of "nice and pretty" 357 magnum brass that had been primed. Believe me, when you have most of the rounds NOT GO OFF, and you also have TWO HANG FIRES because you didn't replace $4 worth of primers when reloading ammo for your….what….$500 to $700 firearm?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? Don't skimp to use something you have no idea what it was subject to. The brass is easy to look at and determine if it's good or bad. The primers?….not so much. Dump 'em!! You have been given many suggestions as to how to do that.

Reload with quality components that you know where they came from. If someone else likes to load with unknown junk….then let him. That is not what I do.

Dave

Dave:
I'll jump back in here and say" punch out a few primers, hit them with a hammer and see if they'll go BANG!' That should tell him if the primers are a problem. Could also be that the shoulders on the "once fired brass" are pushed back too far for his chamber.
He needs to start somewhere and IMHO, that is a good place. No matter what the availability or price of primers is/are, start somewhere and work from there.
So he replaces all the primers and still has the problem? Then what? Check primers first and see what happens. ( I'ts pretty hard to kill a primer! ) Could also be case length compared to his chamber.
We're not talking about "junk" components here. Maybe defective primers, not from the factory. Or....
Mike.

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

IF there is a shoulder problem- is the brass junk? How would I correct that (posture lessons for slouching cases?)? Brian

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Not at all. One of the basic methods making things into things they weren't made to be made into is creating a false shoulder by expanding the neck up to the next caliber then partially resizing it for a slight crush when chambering.

For example, using 222 Rem Mag brass to make 204 Ruger.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ag0xsg.jpg
A 222 RM case on the left with a false shoulder made by running it part way into a 204 FL die. On the right one fired in the 204 chamber. The false shoulder provides the correct head clearance, or the lack of it in this instance for firing and forming.

Some use a bullet jam to keep the casehead in contact with the breach face when fire forming brass. I don't, never have and never will.

Bill

Mike,

If those pieces of brass got water in them and then dried out, the primers…..like the case of my 357 magnums….will have perhaps 30% of them go off. The rest of them will be junk. So, why mess with them? Why? Your speaking of a minimal amount of work and a tiny amount of dollars.

I did it once and learned a very valuable lesson. I will never use pre-primed brass from any source again. It's simply too risky for a few pennies to be saved.

Dave

Dave:
If in fact the primers got wet then dried out, they may very well be junk. He still needs to find out if they're bad or if it's a brass/headspace issue. We can guess all we want but he still has to see if he can find out the problem?? It's got nothing to do with $$ saved or spent.
Find out excatly what the problem is then go from there.
Mike.

Mike,

This is my last post to comment on saving $4. If the primers are in fact bad….or even good. To suggest to set the bullet length to seat into the lands, and then have a hang fire occur (which could be a primer give a low sizzle and set off your powder…then go BANG…and set off the cartridge charge) and possibly split your barrel, bulge your barrel, or worse.

Not worth the $4 or the time to simply decap and put in new.

If the headspace of the brass is your concern…..the just measure the brass against your previous shot brass. If you don't have a gauge to measure it….now would be a good time to buy one.

Dave

Pay attention to billpa's and Davemuzz's post. The case headspace is off.

I'm with Dave. It will take more time pulling the bullets on the few that won't fire than running the cases through a FL resize, deprime then repriming. My OCD just won't let me use anyone elses work. I had enough bad rounds when I started reloading which is what causes you to learn and get better. Why take a chance on someone elses mistakes, even Scharch?

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Originally Posted by Rifleshooter308

Why take a chance on someone elses mistakes, even Scharch?

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I won't go as far as to far Schrach made a mistake. Like all manufactures they expect their stuff to work with the other manufacture's stuff 99% of the time be it ammo, chambers, reloading dies and etc. Its the 1% that doesn't work is what jumps up and bites ya in the.......

Most manufactures give you a little more or less depending so things will work together...hopefully! In Silver's case I guess maybe hes the lucky 1%. If the brass is short head clearance for his chamber then the only options are few, fix it, trash it or return it.

Bill

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Originally Posted by Rifleshooter308

I'm with Dave. It will take more time pulling the bullets on the few that won't fire than running the cases through a FL resize, deprime then repriming. My OCD just won't let me use anyone elses work. I had enough bad rounds when I started reloading which is what causes you to learn and get better. Why take a chance on someone elses mistakes, even Scharch?

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Thanks all- like was said- it's the problems that "learn ya" in life. I bought the brass from an individual-the bag was sealed and the bag of dissecant was broken open. I'm gonna de-prime, FL resize and re-prime. Not trying to lay the blame on anyone- Scharch or the seller. I'm confident neither knew of the problem. I'll be busy doing the work, but I love sitting at the bench; all good experience IMO. Theres something about carefully prepping, measuring, loading etc. that really flips my switch. AND as always- this forum is invaluable for info. and encouragement. Deep thanks! I can only hope when I get competent at doing this I can pass on info / help others out. Brian

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Not at all. One of the basic methods making things into things they weren't made to be made into is creating a false shoulder by expanding the neck up to the next caliber then partially resizing it for a slight crush when chambering.

For example, using 222 Rem Mag brass to make 204 Ruger.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ag0xsg.jpg
A 222 RM case on the left with a false shoulder made by running it part way into a 204 FL die. On the right one fired in the 204 chamber. The false shoulder provides the correct head clearance, or the lack of it in this instance for firing and forming.

Some use a bullet jam to keep the casehead in contact with the breach face when fire forming brass. I don't, never have and never will.

Bill

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Thanks Bill! This forum is a smorgasboard of information- I'm diggin' it! Brian

My momma always told me: "buying recycled LC milsup brass is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going get." ;)

After reading and rereading i belive i would take the brass that didn't fire and pull the bullet resize, reprime, reload and try it again. If it is a brass problem it should show up again at least on some of the brass. I would do this before i went thru all the trouble of repriming everything.

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Originally Posted by earl39

i would take the brass that didn't fire and pull the bullet resize

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I wouldn't FL resize it. If its short now it would still be short or even shorter depending how the die is setup and the chamber length. Its why I suggested a false shoulder with a slight crush chambering. A case can't move front or back, its jammed between the breach face and the false shoulder. It can only do one thing when fired, expand to the chamber dimensions.

Bill

What i was suggesting Bill was to find out if it was a brass or primer problem. If he creates a false shoulder he will have no way to know if the brass was short enough to cause the problem. Then if the brass is too short he could create a false shoulder on the other brass and be good to go.

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Originally Posted by earl39

If he creates a false shoulder he will have no way to know if the brass was short enough to cause the problem.

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Sure he would. Its the purpose of a false shoulder, to lengthen the brass and keep the cartridge firmly against the boltface and the false shoulder regardless of the chamber length dimension. If the problem is in fact short head clearance then a false shoulder would be an instant indicator of such. If not then at least one of the three possible problems has been put to rest.

Bill

OK Friends- we have to remember Brian is VERY new to reloading. Before today I thought a "false shoulder" were those old timey pads dudes used to have put in their suit jackets to make 'em hang right. Jam against the lands? Running a friggin' boat aground. BTW- although I know folks bump the bullet out till it touches the lands, I wont be doing that. Too scarey right now for me.

How would I go about de-capping the misfires (I'll call them for now)without re-sizing? Crank the decapping pin out the whole way or...?

The false shoulder seems very logical. But since I ONLY reload for .223, subsequently having only one set of dies, what do I have to buy die-wise to get them falsies? (Reminds me of this girlfriend I once had...)

Thanks for patience with the FNGR ("R" for reloader) Brian

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

OK Friends- we have to remember Brian is VERY new to reloading. Before today I thought a "false shoulder" were those old timey pads dudes used to have put in their suit jackets to make 'em hang right. Jam against the lands? Running a friggin' boat aground. BTW- although I know folks bump the bullet out till it touches the lands, I wont be doing that. Too scarey right now for me.

How would I go about de-capping the misfires (I'll call them for now)without re-sizing? Crank the decapping pin out the whole way or...?

The false shoulder seems very logical. But since I ONLY reload for .223, subsequently having only one set of dies, what do I have to buy die-wise to get them falsies? (Reminds me of this girlfriend I once had...)

Thanks for patience with the FNGR ("R" for reloader) Brian

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Well, first of all I need to apologize a bit. I been doing this stuff so long I tend to forget I was where your at a half of century ago.

To decapping live primers, I could probably could fill a five gallon bucket with the number I done for one reason or another. These days I use a Lee universal decapping die. I think when I bought mine it cost about 5-6 bucks.

You don't need another die depending on the manufacturer to make the falsies(:p) only another expander button if it will screw on the rod. Just swap the 223 for a 243/6mm then run the brass in the die just far enough so the button goes into the shoulder then pull it back out.

Finally reinstall the 22 button back on the rod, back the die off then start adjusting it back down sizing the neck a little at a time until the bolt just closes on the brass with a hint of resistance. Its really a simple process especially after you've done it a gazillion times!

Bill

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Well, first of all I need to apologize a bit. I been doing this stuff so long I tend to forget I was where your at a half of century ago.

To decapping live primers, I could probably could fill a five gallon bucket with the number I done for one reason or another. These days I use a Lee universal decapping die. I think when I bought mine it cost about 5-6 bucks.

You don't need another die depending on the manufacturer to make the falsies(:p) only another expander button if it will screw on the rod. Just swap the 223 for a 243/6mm then run the brass in the die just far enough so the button goes into the shoulder then pull it back out.

Finally reinstall the 22 button back on the rod, back the die off then start adjusting it back down sizing the neck a little at a time until the bolt just closes on the brass with a hint of resistance. Its really a simple process especially after you've done it a gazillion times!

Bill

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No apology necessary Bill. You are being helpful and I appreciate that! Thanks for the info.- understandable and succinct. I wish I'd started reloading many years ago. Dad was into it BIG time, but he had a serious problem with the bottle; with my mom and with me. I did "inherit" his passion for guns / shooting and some of his ability. AND- to me at my ripening old age, nothing better than learning about what you love, and loving what you learn.

And no better place than here to do it! Brian

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

I wish I'd started reloading many years ago.

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Well, I came by it honestly. My uncle was a gunwreaker, reloaded ammo for his customers and loved to play with weirdcats. I joke saying I was shooting a 7-08 years before there was a 7-08. I used to hang around his shop watching (bug'n) him while he worked. I guess I was eight or nine (1956-57!) when he started teaching me the fine art of reloading. It was only years later I discovered teaching wasn't his true purpose, I was cheap (say free) labor!

Bill

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

I wish I'd started reloading many years ago.

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SC, I began to reload about ten years ago when I was forced to quit working because of this **** disease I have. Prior to that I did a minimal amount of shooting and most of my hunting was with flintlock rifles. But, when I could no longer golf or do a lot of those types of physical activities, plus being a "numbers guy" and my love of hunting, the shooting sports was a natural. I just began to read and subscribe to every shooting and reloading magazine I could and read piles of information.

Your never to late to teach an old dog a new trick.

BTW….of all the forums I visit, this one is my favorite. No politics, religion, "groupies" and the like. It's just the good discussion and sharing of knowledge.

FWIW

Dave

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

SC, I began to reload about ten years ago when I was forced to quit working because of this **** disease I have. Prior to that I did a minimal amount of shooting and most of my hunting was with flintlock rifles. But, when I could no longer golf or do a lot of those types of physical activities, plus being a "numbers guy" and my love of hunting, the shooting sports was a natural. I just began to read and subscribe to every shooting and reloading magazine I could and read piles of information.

Your never to late to teach an old dog a new trick.

BTW….of all the forums I visit, this one is my favorite. No politics, religion, "groupies" and the like. It's just the good discussion and sharing of knowledge.

FWIW

Dave

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well said Dave. This forum has moderators that run a tight ship...

UPDATE...UPI SELLERSVILLE PA>

I finally got around to "testing" the primers on the Scharch LC once fired and primed brass. Lubed 40 casings, hearing and eye protection on, nice thick piece of slate from my patio, favorite hammer. Whack whack etc.; five primers did not detonate. Another took two hits to detonate but I might have not hit it head on. On my initial loading four out of 20 did not detonate. I'm thinking the problem was probably with the primers.

Also on punching out (carefully) the live primers I FL resized the brass. Although it came sized and primed, it "felt" different; a little tighter feel, a slight bit more pressure needed on the downstroke than the other brass I've resized. BUT I am thinking that because this brass was 1- fired in another rifle and 2- sized on a commercial press, that this difference in feeling probably doesn't mean anything? Thoughts / opinions welcome.

As always- thanks! BTW- my new young neighbors think I'm really cool, "for being an older guy"! :cool: These young folks; just because I'm seen going and coming at all hours with guns, and hammering primers in the back yard...LOL

Brian