Did I become a bad shot, or is my setup going hawire?

110 FCP HS, chambered in 300 win mag. Setup is as follows:

barrel threaded for brake, and the brake was used/installed during discussion below.
nightforce one piece 20moa scope base
vortex scope rings
vortex viper pst 6-24x50 EBR-1 MOA
Bipod
vortex scope bubble level
Shooting at 100yds

Before seating and torquing the scope rings, the rifle was leveled followed by the scope. Everything was torqued, ensuring level was not lost.

Outing 1 to the range:
15MPH gusts, Federal Gold Match BTHP, 190gr. Took a while to get it on paper, then scope adjustments got the POI closer to the POA, but things seemed erratic. Got Frustrated, went home. 18 shots total.

Noticed that the scope base was loose, so I retorqued this time using blue loctice. Also redid the scope rings with loctite.

Outing 2 to the range (earlier today):
5mph breeze from directly behind, Federal 180gr powershock. Not the same as day one, but much cheaper and readily available so I was fine zeroing with it. 20 shots total.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ps72c3dd54.jpg

In the image above, I am pointing at my 1st two shots of the day (today). Then things went a bit nutty. I was ~2inches low and left, so I adjsuted scope for 2" up and 2" right. Shots grouped at the top of the same target, so the "right" adjustment seemed to help and was accurate, but the "up" adjustement seemed to be way too much. (please not that these adjustments yieled only one of the tight grouping of three) I then adjusted the scope down for 1", and that's when things got grey/muddy. I lost all consistency.

I still kept it on the target, but POI and POA never matched. I always used 3 shot groups before making adjustments, and usually 2/3 were OK in the sense that they were close to each other, but the third was always a flier. And the 2/3 that were close to each other never had matching POI and POA.

I am fully prepared to admit that I'm not a pro, but I'm pretty sure that I'm better than this at 100yds! Is there something I can do to verify my setup is rigged properly and functioning as it should? Or, how can I make sure that it isn't me?

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

Next time out, lose the bipod and shoot over sandbags placed as near the barrel nut as you can comfortably shoot to eliminate any issues that may be caused by flexing of the stock. Also make sure the barrel and rear tang are both free floated. You might also grab a few other brands of ammo, your rifle may not like what you're currently feeding it. If you feel comfortable that your bullet placement is spot on, and they're not hitting where you're aiming, then either the rifle or the ammo is the culprit. If you still can't get it nailed down then I'd try a different scope/mounts to eliminate that as well.

I will lose the bipod.

Regarding the barrel and rear tang, how couldn't they be free floated? Are there major production variances with the fcp hs stocks? Otherwise, its just the two action bolts and those are torqued to 44 in lbs.

I cant imagine any ammo being better than the match grade stuff I tried on day one, and that stuff was also all over the place. So i think its either the rifle, scope or rings.

I guess I will try in this order:
Verify action bolt torque
Sandbags
New rings
New scope
New rifle


Thanks for the suggestions.

Shooting off a bipod. No mention of what you used for a rear rest. What surface are you shooting off ? Have you verified that the barrel remains free floated when in the shooting position off the bipod ? If the bipod attaches to the front sling swivel it is way forward and if the stock has some flex in it, the barrel may not stay free floated. I suggest you use a playing card to check free floating not a $ bill since the bill is too thin for the amount that the stocks flex.

Shooting off a bipod has a learning curve. You would be more consistent with a rock type front rest with a tight fitting bag to guide the fore-end. Be sure to use a large enough rear bag so that you have a solid rest.

Next point is that a 300WM is a pretty hard hitting cartridge. It is very easy to develop a flinch. It helps to take along a 223 and be sure that your form is perfect when shooting that, before you start shooting the big banger. Then shoot a 3 shot group and go back to shooting the 223. Dont make scope adjustments except between groups. If you start flinching your form will go to hell on the 223, but that is a cheaper way to figure it out. If flinch is an issue you may want to get a good side port brake put on it and try shooting from the prone position where more of your weight is directly behind the rifle and the boom tends to reflect off the ground and not be so severe at the shooters face.

I was shooting off a bench, with no rear bag. Shoulder pocket only.

I did not verify free floated barrel while shooting. Maybe I'm naive, but I assumed the weight of the gun wouldn't be enough to flex the stock that much.

Regarding flinch, I don't think that I have it...but I'm a realist and wont rule it out. The brake I am using is ported on top and has slots on the L & R. Nothing on the bottom. It really tames the recoil; 20 rounds today and felt like nothing.

My 300 did the same to me about 1.5 years ago, just before an elk hunt. Turned out that my Leupold scope had gone south. The first indication was that small adjustments to the scope made exaggerated impact changes. Sent it off for repairs and all is good now.

Using Loc-Tite on the scope rings is a no no per Vortex. You can easily over torque (are you using a proper torque wrench?) the screws since with the Loc-Tite you are getting a wet torque and the screw torque is for a dry thread. What torque are you using? If you, even slightly, deform the scope tube between the turrets and power adjuster you could get a floating zero as the gimbal can be affected.
Do you use any sort of recoil reducer (shoulder pad) when at the range? I do just to take the hit out of it, I find I shoot more consistently.

Now back to the basics....has this rifle ever shot very good or do you know? Powder or lead fouling? Too "clean" of a barrel? Has another person who is a known good shooter with a big caliber been able to reproduce your results? Does it shoot better/worse without the brake?
Use a rear bag. Do as much as you possibly can to remove human error from the equation then you can focus on the mechanics of the firearm.

One thing you can do for flinch is go with a buddy. Have him load, or not, the rifle then you settle in for a shot...if you don't have a round in the chamber and you noticeably flinch with no shot fired then you can see it easily.

Darrell

Scope rings were torqued to the low end of the spec; 15 in lbs.

I don't use a shoulder pad, as the brake really takes the bite out of the 300. I have not tried it without the brake to see what happens to accuracy. I can give that a shot my next time out.

This is a new rifle, and I'm the only one who has shot it. Unfortuantely, none of my range buddies with talent have been able to go with me, and I didn't want to ask any of the random's at the range today. And based off of looking at their targets, they certainly didn't impress anyway! ;)

I checked my barrel and it is free floated; business card fit all the way to the barrel nut with ease. However, the tang was touching the stock. Perhaps this is part of my issue? I loosened up the rear action bolt and it began to float, but odd that it would touch at 44 in lbs.

When I shot today, the barrel had never been cleaned. After I got home, I did clean it up but after only 38 shots it wasn't too bad at all.

Both screws don't always have to be torqued to the same values.... Something to ponder... Couldn't hurt to try relieving a little bit of material in the tang area. (Perhaps you have a bedding problem)



http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/


Next time out force yourself to leave the scope adjustment alone and concentrate on taking your time and putting 5 on paper using same poa (should take you about 20-25 Mins if you allow it to cool between shots).... Double check to be sure your parallax free at whatever distance you are shooting at.
And as mentioned above by others , bipods shot from concrete bench's aren't very forging and have a tendency to produce at the very least lots of vernicle.

Good luck.

There are many people who say that the best they can shoot with a single decent support is about 3moa.

Regarding free floating, yes, sorry to say but you are naive. No factory rifle I know off has a quality bedding unless it has a full bedding block like an accustock and even then you need to be sure that the barrel is free floating. It is one of the most common problems to have with a factory rifle. You should assume you will have it until you have verified that you do not. Use a playing card and have the rifle supported the way it will be fired. Then see if the playing card clears all the way back to the nut. If not relieve it with a 3/4" hardwood dowel wrapped with 40 grit paper until it is free floated. There was a lot of discussion regarding the way sniping rifles changed in vietnam and that with the Remington style rifles it was critical that the barrel didn't touch anything including vegetation or else the shot would be a flyer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 300winmag

I was shooting off a bench, with no rear bag. Shoulder pocket only.

I did not verify free floated barrel while shooting. Maybe I'm naive, but I assumed the weight of the gun wouldn't be enough to flex the stock that much.

Regarding flinch, I don't think that I have it...but I'm a realist and wont rule it out. The brake I am using is ported on top and has slots on the L & R. Nothing on the bottom. It really tames the recoil; 20 rounds today and felt like nothing.

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How does the tang touching the stock effect accuracy? Does it cause a moment / bend on the action/barrel? Or is it a harmonic issue?

Regarding being naive about the free float barrel, my stock has an Al bedding block. Hence my assumption.

As I stated previously, I checked for free floating barrel when supported on the bipod and a business card fit all the way to the barrel nut.

It affects it due to the fact that where the rear screw does its clamping , it's an area that has poor surface area as compared to the forward portion of the receiver , so yes you are correct .. If you could imagine having the trigger group removed from the receiver and a cylindrical sleeve placed around the action starting from the face going all the way to the rear tang area THIS is an optimum bedding surface area and therefore both floating and tuning with the rear screw would not be needed.

Two things I myself would try in your situation that will cost you nothing except spent components 1) float the tang so that when both screws have 50-55 inch lbs applied there is no binding.. Then loosen both screws to 30in\lbs and bring your torque wrench with you to the range so you can shoot some 3 shots and gradually tighten the screws in 3-5 in\lbs increments till you see the groups open up again...That is your optimum torque setting for that stock .

And secondly I would bring a small carpenters level with you , ensure your targets are truly plumb.. targets that have clear vertical and horizontal points of reference ... If the targets are plumb but when viewed through your scope you find your cross hairs are not matching up with the horizontal lines then this could have you chasing your tail... Get the rifle so without applying any torque or twist it aligns with the horizontals.

Good luck...And remember , a bad day at the range is still better than a good day at work lol

Check your stock/action to see if the barrel and tang is indeed floated. I just picked up a 110FP from a friend and I had to float both the barrel channel AND the rear tang. While I was at it, I glass bedded it too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Next time out, lose the bipod and shoot over sandbags placed as near the barrel nut as you can comfortably shoot to eliminate any issues that may be caused by flexing of the stock. Also make sure the barrel and rear tang are both free floated. You might also grab a few other brands of ammo, your rifle may not like what you're currently feeding it. If you feel comfortable that your bullet placement is spot on, and they're not hitting where you're aiming, then either the rifle or the ammo is the culprit. If you still can't get it nailed down then I'd try a different scope/mounts to eliminate that as well.

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+1....especially on losing the bi-pod and using bags.

I thought these rifles came with a 1 MoA guarantee. So why the need for all this aftermarket stock bedding and so on?

My MkII is a tackdriver at 25-50 yds right out of the box.

I just got my Savage 14 Classic (.308) last month, and I'm still at the sighting-in stage; the best group I've got so far is ~2 MoA
at 100yds using Federal 165 gr. I've put that down to my less-than-perfect marksmanship and the lack of a sandbag for the butt.
For my next day at the range I won't be in such a rush. I could shoot from a Lead Sled, but what I'd gain in recoil reduction
I'd lose in precise windage adjustment. I'm using a pachyderm recoil pad which I find helps a lot when bench shooting.

Good, solid bags under the fore end and buttstock, then it's just a matter of fundamentals of marksmanship, eh?
That's the human factor. I'm not going to start messing with the factory setup until I'm certain I've done all I can to
optimize my technique.

nb: (I let my partner try his luck with it, and he put a nice little three shot group at 12:00 using his surplus Norinco 7.62 ammo!
So much for the 'use the best ammo' theory!)

Do your absolute best before you start blaming the rifle, that's been my experience.

Every factory rifle I have touched except the model 10 PC has needed barrel channel work or re-bedding. That includes my model 12.

You can waste a lot of ammo before you start looking at solving issues with factory rifles. Make sure you do not have the issues first. If you have them, fix them. Prior to that everything you do is a waste of money and a waste of ammo and barrel life.

So as I dremel the stock area at the tang, I just want roughly a business card's clearance after its torqued down?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

You can waste a lot of ammo before you start looking at solving issues with factory rifles. Make sure you do not have the issues first. If you have them, fix them. Prior to that everything you do is a waste of money and a waste of ammo and barrel life.

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Understood. On my next outing I'm going to take my time and shoot to the very best of my ability. If I still don't get satisfactory results, then I'll start to look at all those other factors, one at a time. Oftentimes a gremlin can be very difficult to find.

I was pretty blue eyed when I got back into shooting once I got my green card and became semi human...

The first rifle I got was a Remington 700 "Classic" in 8x57. The previous owner had a Magnaport cylindrical brake fitted as well as iron sights. So this started out as a roughly $700+ rifle, and he added at least another $300 of hardware to it. I then bought it after he nearly died of a heart attack for $750. Thought I was getting a bargain.

Well, that POS never shot better than about 5MOA even from a bench type rest. Replaced the 8lb trigger with the lawyer approved springs in it with a Shilen, that added the first $100. Now it shot about 3MOA. Looked at doing a bedding job, but it was too nice a hardwood stock for my first bedding job, so I bought a Boyds laminate thumbhole stock and bedded the action in that. Now it was a 2MOA rifle. The final weakness was the barrel, and after a lot of time an money invested in getting a custom barrel that never seemed to be finished, I finally canceled and got my money and the rifle back.

So I just want you to know this was not a unique experience. The next one I got was a Rem 700 223 SPS. The difference was that all that was required to make that one shoot was taking about 1/8" of one side of the barrel inlet since the injection molded part was warped. After that it was a 1/2 MOA rifle and only needed the POS chinese scope replaced. My Savage 12 243 Win needed a bedding job. I later got the 10PC and it was perfect out the box, but of course it has the accustock and a short barrel so the stock flex was not an issue. It was also the "original" accustock with the wedge for the recoil lug and it worked great.

I meanwhile rebuilt the model 10 and put it in a model 12 laminate stock. Since I did that the magazine will no longer feed, so the inletting on that stock is off. I also put a 26" match 1:8 barrel on it with a Wylde chamber for shooting 80gr Bergers. After I correct the inletting it will be a great rifle.

About the only time you can expect that the inletting and bedding has been taken care of is when it gets built at the custom shop that is associated with the factory. All the sniper rifles that Remington produces come out their custom shop and of course those guys pay attention to all the details. But anything that is a regular factory rifle is hit and miss and you can expect to solve some "issues" before it will perform to expectation.

Looks like there was a faulty objective cell on the scope, per the mfg.

How long are you waiting between shots? A 300 WM generates a lot of barrel heat. You may have to wait two or three minutes before firing another round. Three round groups are ok for a hunting rifle but a heavy barrel varmint rifle or bench rifle really needs five shot groups to tell their accuracy story.

Something I noticed with my Axis, and was surprised to see to a lesser extant on my 111LRH is the amount of flex in the wrist area. I had found that I was accidentally pulling slightly downward and back I to my shoulder using a bipod and no rear bag. A very nice Range master was watching me one late evening. He grabbed a range bag, set the rifle up for me, then smiled as he took one finger, and very little pressure made the Axis flex about 2 inches at the wrist. When I got my 111, I did the same thing and was surprised to see it flex about half to 3/4 inch. When I looked up the accustock I noticed the bedding block doesn't extend that far into the wrist.

My point? Even with a bedding block, there may be a flex point we are not aware of, and may unintentionally be putting pressure on it. After the wrist flex was pointed out, and I started using the rear bag! I stopped stringing shots vertically with the Axis. Since I have always shot the 111 with a LedSled or bipod and rear bag, I have not had the vertical stringing. I have not bedded the Axis because I am changing the stock out. I may use it for a practice run once I get the new stock in, so I don't mess up the new stock on a first try.

pinsnscrews, sorry but my accustock aluminum insert runs all the way forward to the sling swivel. No way you are going to flex that 3/4 of an inch without putting your full body weight on it, which would be pointless.

I have a regular old 300 win mag hunter 111 and it shoots great. I think the bedding issue makes some difference--but not as much as some seem to think. The 300 wm is so powerful that coming out of my rifle 100 yds is very difficult to draw any conclusions from--it's simply too close. I've shot OCW ladders where every bullet--from lowest to highest charge weight--landed very close to one another at 100 yds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

pinsnscrews, sorry but my accustock aluminum insert runs all the way forward to the sling swivel. No way you are going to flex that 3/4 of an inch without putting your full body weight on it, which would be pointless.

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http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accustock_top.jpg

The Wrist is the portion of the stock your hold with your trigger hand. Notice in the image above, the Accustock bedding block ends under the Tang of the Receiver, and does not extend into the Wrist or Buttstock of the Rifle. There is no 3/4 inch of Aluminum in that part of the stock. You do not need to cause flex in the forearm, if the wrist is being used as the pivot.

I can't see how one could shoot any rifle accurately when putting that amount of force into it. "Muscling the rifle" was the first big no-no pointed out by most instruction documents. You are supposed to be relaxed in order to be consistent. I do agree that a front and rear bag is the best way, although I do use a bipod in the field and there is quite a learning curve to using it consistently.

The only rifle I had with the accustock was my 10PC and that recently got a new laminate stock, but that rifle was always a 1/2MOA rifle. There is no way anyone is going to bend that stock 3/4" with 1 finger. Now the piece of junk that is sold with the axis of model 11/ 111, quite a different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

I can't see how one could shoot any rifle accurately when putting that amount of force into it. "Muscling the rifle" was the first big no-no pointed out by most instruction documents. You are supposed to be relaxed in order to be consistent. I do agree that a front and rear bag is the best way, although I do use a bipod in the field and there is quite a learning curve to using it consistently.

The only rifle I had with the accustock was my 10PC and that recently got a new laminate stock, but that rifle was always a 1/2MOA rifle. There is no way anyone is going to bend that stock 3/4" with 1 finger. Now the piece of junk that is sold with the axis of model 11/ 111, quite a different story.

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Yeah I have a 10 FLCP-K with the accustock as well....agreed, no one is going to bend that tock 3/4 of an inch with 1 finger unless yer superman! As crappy a the tupperware stock is that is on my 11 THXP, I still don't even honestly think moving it 3/4 of an inch with 1 finger is really likely...it's flexible and a crappy stock, but 3/4" in movement downward would require you to also bend the barrel....

As mentioned above as well...your grip on the fore-stock should be gentle if at all....I never lay a hand on the fore-stock with most my rifles when shooting....front and rear bags is all one needs....I have a bi-pod and use it occasionally but find it just isn't that comfortable to shoot with and less accurate in general.

You are not bending the stock 3/4", you are bending the stock enough at the wrist to cause the Muzzle to rise 3/4". Big difference. The Muzzle is the length of the receiver, plus barrel length away from the wrist. It only takes a small amount of movement.

But if the muzzle rises, so do the scope crosshairs ?

Yes, but it is an action that is happening during a flinch, which means it is not something your going to notice during the shot. It was what the range master was showing me was happening when I flinched. A way he could show me that I was actually flinching, when I did not think I was. i wasn't closing my eyes. Wasn't jerking the trigger. But yet, he was able to point out where a weak point in the rifle was showing that I was in fact flinching.

Glad you got it figured out. She shooting nice and tight again?

Something I like to do when I am going shoot the 300 quite a bit is to also take a 22LR with me and shoot groups with it between rounds. Helps with the anti-flinch itch, breathing and trigger management and also allows for a good cool down on the 300.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jetpig

Something I like to do when I am going shoot the 300 quite a bit is to also take a 22LR with me and shoot groups with it between rounds. Helps with the anti-flinch itch, breathing and trigger management and also allows for a good cool down on the 300.

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Good tip! I'm going to try that. I often bring the MkII along for a little plinking after I'm done with the .308.

If it was shooting great and then suddenly started going haywire it's one of 5 things: 1) You developed a flinch; 2) Your barrel is too hot between shots; 3) you switched ammo and it didn't like the load; 4) it got too dirty; 5) Your scope broke. I've had all of the above :) Glad you got it figured out. Hope it's back to good groupings.

I guess something in the bolt might have broken...but I know nothing about that :)

Swapped scope rings to a higher quality set and voila!

Here is a 3 shot group at 100yds.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psi1xct8z7.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 300winmag

Swapped scope rings to a higher quality set and voila!

Here is a 3 shot group at 100yds.

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Nice shooting, 300 Winnie! Now come left 2 & up 1... (;^)

I solved my problem by changing barrels--- I changed from my old Savage 14 to a new Savage 10 FCP HS.
I borrowed that scope (Redfield TAC 3-9x40) from the 14 and began shooting <1 MOA straightaway.

The very next day I swapped the scope over to my Mk II .22 r-f (eyeball boresighted) and did the same thing
with that: 3 rnds = .62" @ 100 yards, then spun the elev drum back down to my 50 yd zero and hit dead centre on the closer target.
I love that little .22--it's my favourite shooter at the moment.
I've got a Sightron 6-24x50 on order for the .308, so that ought to be some fun.

BTW-- Both rifles stayed true all day: 40 rnd of .308 and 75 rnd of .22. No "issues". Maybe those fatty barrels do make a difference.

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/z...gLad/011-3.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 300winmag

Swapped scope rings to a higher quality set and voila!

Here is a 3 shot group at 100yds.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psi1xct8z7.jpg

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What set did you have and what set did you go to?

Darrell

Not sure what brand the old ones were. The new set are vortex's precision rings.