Apache, Criterion/Shillen from NSS, McGowen, Brux from SSS... SO many options. Input?

Looking at a rebarrel, and trying to figure out what to get. I've seen good reviews from all of them. Personally, I feel like the Brux from SSS is in a different league, being cut rifled instead of button rifled, but at $440+, I'm not sure it's worth it to me at this point. It's also worth noting I've sent them an email with no response yet, and after doing some searching, it seems like they're a pretty hard company to get ahold to, and tend to have a pretty long wait.

CBI, Shillen, and McGowen all seem to get pretty solid reviews, and are probably on the the same playing field. Are they worth the extra money over an Apache barrel though? I've seen some pretty good reviews from Apache, however I've also heard ER Shaw and Green Mountain stuff is sub par at best and not any better than a factory Savage barrel...

So many options...


Any input is greatly appreciated.

tag

What caliber are you looking at, and more specifically what chambering.

Dean

For what use? Target shooting from a bench? Hunting?

Buy whatever you can get that you like that is in stock somewhere. For average shooting and hunting you can't go wrong with any of them.

Target. Long range. Mostly 500-1300yds. Not sure how the chambering is relevant... but I haven't decided on a chambering yet, but more than likely it'll be 260 or 6.5 Creedmoor.

I'm in the same boat looking for a .223 600 yard target gun. I'm interested in the responses. I've been considering sinarms for a action truing and a brux.

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Originally Posted by upSLIDEdown

however I've also heard ER Shaw and Green Mountain stuff is sub par at best and not any better than a factory Savage barrel...

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Don't believe what hear or read until you have actually used said item.
I have a inexpensive ER Shaw .223, 24" varmint barrel from midwayusa and have not 1 issue with shooting to 700 yards and it prints in the .450-.600" with my hand loads at 100 yds. My real targets are p-dogs and it hits what I aim at unless a slight breeze of 15 mph+ messes me up.
I also have a .223 McGowan drop in, 20p & .223 CBI drop in and they are all more than good to go.
The above do not mine copper, shoot all sub moas w/my loads.
I buy what I can get in my hands within a decent time frame for my builds.

My top performing barrels to date:

1. 6WSM built by Apache on a Green Mountain Blank (it has given me a consistency of groups well under 1/2 MOA, and a few under 1/4))
2. 6BR by CBI from NSS (normally shoots from 1/4 to 1/2 MOA)
3. 308 12FV Savage as it left the factory (consistently under 1/2 MOA hot or cold bore always to POA)
4. 243AI that was rechambered from a factory Savage SS fluted Varmint barrel (always under 1/2 MOA and this barrel has quite a few rounds on her, 2500+ and still shoots great)
5. 22-250 12FV barrel (gave 1/2MOA results and was very consistent)


It is also worth noting that I have a 250AI on a Shaw blank built by Apache that I am starting to work with and on its first outing it gave me under MOA results with a thrown together load of RL22 and 120gr Hornadys. It has great promise of being a real tack driver. I also have a 450 Bushmaster barrel that Apache built for me on a Green Mountain blank, and it is shooting the factory stuff under 1 MOA and I am certain handloads will do better.

I also had a 7mm RM that was a Shaw prefit that was fitted with a brake that I bought used here in the classifieds. That thing shot 120gr Sierras into 3/8" at 100 all day long.

Point of all this rambling I'm doing is that a man that is good at what he does can make a so-so quality blank that will shoot like a dream, and on the other side of that coin a guy who isn't very good can seriously screw up a "premium" blank. Apache does great work, pays attention to detail, and makes some great barrels. My last 3 have been from him and I am getting ready to contact him to order a 4th. I figure if I can call Apache and get it built how I want it for similar money and no super long wait then that's where I will go.

I hope that some of that is helpful, CBI has treated me well, the one Pac-Nor I had shot well also, but Shaw, Green Mountain, and factory Savage barrels have done equal to or better than I can shoot so really its up to you. Talking straight factory prefits I would be most likely to go with a CBI for the value and performance over a Shaw or Savage factory barrel for example, but with Apache cutting the barrel I have confidence in his work and have no problems with Shaw or Green Mountain.

If you want a Brux I'd call Devin at Sin-Arms. He works with Brux blanks and may be able to help and does good work also.

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Originally Posted by 5spd

Don't believe what hear or read until you have actually used said item.
I have a inexpensive ER Shaw .223, 24" varmint barrel from midwayusa and have not 1 issue with shooting to 700 yards and it prints in the .450-.600" with my hand loads at 100 yds. My real targets are p-dogs and it hits what I aim at unless a slight breeze of 15 mph+ messes me up.
I also have a .223 McGowan drop in, 20p & .223 CBI drop in and they are all more than good to go.
The above do not mine copper, shoot all sub moas w/my loads.
I buy what I can get in my hands within a decent time frame for my builds.

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Exactly the reason I posted this. Was hoping to find some people with actual experience to hopefully find some guidance on what to do.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

My top performing barrels to date:

1. 6WSM built by Apache on a Green Mountain Blank (it has given me a consistency of groups well under 1/2 MOA, and a few under 1/4))
2. 6BR by CBI from NSS (normally shoots from 1/4 to 1/2 MOA)
3. 308 12FV Savage as it left the factory (consistently under 1/2 MOA hot or cold bore always to POA)
4. 243AI that was rechambered from a factory Savage SS fluted Varmint barrel (always under 1/2 MOA and this barrel has quite a few rounds on her, 2500+ and still shoots great)
5. 22-250 12FV barrel (gave 1/2MOA results and was very consistent)


It is also worth noting that I have a 250AI on a Shaw blank built by Apache that I am starting to work with and on its first outing it gave me under MOA results with a thrown together load of RL22 and 120gr Hornadys. It has great promise of being a real tack driver. I also have a 450 Bushmaster barrel that Apache built for me on a Green Mountain blank, and it is shooting the factory stuff under 1 MOA and I am certain handloads will do better.

I also had a 7mm RM that was a Shaw prefit that was fitted with a brake that I bought used here in the classifieds. That thing shot 120gr Sierras into 3/8" at 100 all day long.

Point of all this rambling I'm doing is that a man that is good at what he does can make a so-so quality blank that will shoot like a dream, and on the other side of that coin a guy who isn't very good can seriously screw up a "premium" blank. Apache does great work, pays attention to detail, and makes some great barrels. My last 3 have been from him and I am getting ready to contact him to order a 4th. I figure if I can call Apache and get it built how I want it for similar money and no super long wait then that's where I will go.

I hope that some of that is helpful, CBI has treated me well, the one Pac-Nor I had shot well also, but Shaw, Green Mountain, and factory Savage barrels have done equal to or better than I can shoot so really its up to you. Talking straight factory prefits I would be most likely to go with a CBI for the value and performance over a Shaw or Savage factory barrel for example, but with Apache cutting the barrel I have confidence in his work and have no problems with Shaw or Green Mountain.

If you want a Brux I'd call Devin at Sin-Arms. He works with Brux blanks and may be able to help and does good work also.

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Exactly the info I was looking for. I just shot Devin an email, hoping to get some idea of price on a Brux. I have a buddy that shoots nothing but high end stuff, Lilja, Obermeyer, etc, that has said the Brux is a far cry better than anything else of the stuff I mentioned. I'm just trying not to spend that kinda coin if I don't need to.

This thread is starting off exactly the way I hoped, and hope it continues. Thanks guys! Keep it coming.

I'm looking for .5" groups at 300 yards, I really want the Brux. If your looking for .5" at 100 a criterion or mcgowan will do that with ease.

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Originally Posted by upSLIDEdown

Exactly the info I was looking for. I just shot Devin an email, hoping to get some idea of price on a Brux.

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I would recommend calling him. I sent an email to him 7 days ago and I'm still waiting for a reply....in fact your post reminded me that I emailed him. Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

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Originally Posted by jsthntn247

I'm looking for .5" groups at 300 yards, I really want the Brux. If your looking for .5" at 100 a criterion or mcgowan will do that with ease.

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So do you send your action in to have the barrel fitted to it or just have the barrel maker chamber/thread the barrel and send it to you for you to install?

I just went through this with Criterion. They were great to deal with. They will use your reamer if you want to supply one. I ordered a 30-06 and all they had was the SAAMI spec reamer, I would guess that it's the same story for .260 or 6.5.

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Originally Posted by NotoriousAPP

So do you send your action in to have the barrel fitted to it or just have the barrel maker chamber/thread the barrel and send it to you for you to install?

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They manufacturer chambers and threads it and then they send it to you for you to install.

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Originally Posted by jsthntn247

I'm looking for .5" groups at 300 yards, I really want the Brux.

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Forget the barrel - are YOU capable of 0.5" groups at 300yd?

That's a mighty tall accuracy expectation.

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Originally Posted by richhelton

They manufacturer chambers and threads it and then they send it to you for you to install.

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I get that part an I know that's what a pre-fit means. I was asking if people have a barrel blank sent to their gunsmith to be chambered/threaded/fitted to the action as opposed to going with a pre-fit barrel which is chambered at the manufacturer.

yes, some people do.

And some people drop the barrel nut all together. For instance, ER Shaw will make a shouldered barrel for your Savage, but you have to send your action to them to have it fitted. Other barrel makers do this to, of course.

If you want a Brux and SSS will not respond (they are busy) call Devin at Sin Arms. He has gone out of his way to work with me on a Brux for a Remington I am working on. The prices are the same. Sin Arms is a sponsor here I believe.

.5 at .300 yards is not going to be a barrel issue it will be an ammo and shooter deal. That's a 1/10 MOA and a goal most professional bench rest shooters dream of. But whatever you can get good results with lesser named barrel makes all depending on what your goals are. A casual weekend shooter looking to bang steel at long range will do fine with a Shaw, McGowen, Criterion, Shilen or even factory Savage varmints. If your into competition running hundreds of rounds 2-3 times a week your going to need something better. I've had a few Shaws and they performed well for the price. I'm currently using one for a 6.5-06 build. I've run a few Criterions, McGowens and Shilens and they have all been shooters. Some better than others. I'm currently running a Lothar Walther in .260 which has been fabulous. It's a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA shooter depending on the shooter and they day. I'm not a competition shooter so I have no need to spend $600 on a barrel at this time. The most I'll spend is $400 or so which is what I paid for the LW. I have paid $500 on a Lilja AR10 barrel and it was worth it. That rifle plain shot like a MOFO. Lots of choices and none are really bad. Buy the best you can afford. For me it's more about what's in stock. I hate waiting for stuff! :p

I've been told that the more important thing than who manufactured the blank is who is cutting the chamber. I have a Douglas 308 barrel and a Brux 7mm Rem Mag barrel both from SSS and the work is top notch. Check out who is cutting the chamber rather than get too concerned with who makes the blanks. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by psharon97

I've been told that the more important thing than who manufactured the blank is who is cutting the chamber.

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I totally agree, and that's why I continue to recommend Apache Gunworks because Jim is very good at getting things true to the bore and on perfect center. I believe this is why I have gotten such good results from the Green Mountain and Shaw Blanks that I have had him use to build.

I have also heard it said that sometimes the person who is reaming the chamber TREATS the "cheap barrel blank" like it is a "cheap barrel blank" and so it turns that way. If he treats it like it's "high dollar" it turns out "high dollar" quality.

Kinda like how you treat a woman...

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Originally Posted by foxx

I have also heard it said that sometimes the person who is reaming the chamber TREATS the "cheap barrel blank" like it is a "cheap barrel blank" and so it turns that way. If he treats it like it's "high dollar" it turns out "high dollar" quality.

Kinda like how you treat a woman...

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Amen. You put that better than I did.

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

Forget the barrel - are YOU capable of 0.5" groups at 300yd?

That's a mighty tall accuracy expectation.

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+1 to this!
I did a post about this type a subject recently.
http://www.shootersforum.com/rifles-...calm-down.html

Interesting. Good thread. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with Jim at Apache. More than likely gonna be a Creed. How are you liking yours so far?

I just picked up a takeoff benchrest barrel in 6PPC for an amazing price. The owner was dissatisfied that it is shooting in the high .1s and .2s now, so it was no use to him. Jim was the obvious choice for me to perform the recontouring, threading, and rechambering for the Savage action.

I can only aspire to one day, to be dissatisfied with .1s and .2s, I think there should be a government program to make all barrels shoot the same. LOL

Dean

I have shot nothing but prefits. ER Shaw, Savage factory, one from Numerich arms (No markings on the barrel about maker) and CDI, to be exact.

I consider my self a fair trigger puller. Not good , not poor, but middle of the road.

All of the above barrels out shoot me.

0.5" groups at 300 yards ?? I would be happy with 0.5" groups at 100 yards some days.

If the 0.5" @ 300yds goal is your true goal, you had better be ready to spend some serious jack on everything, barrel, fancy benchrest stock, fancy front rest, Serious optics, making sure everything is repeatable on your reloading process, the whole nine yards.

As a side note: I shoot at big piney sportsmans club in Houston MO. There is wall of fame posted on the 600 yard firing line. One of the plaques is the "Sub 1 inch Club" It is for folks that shoot sub one inch groups at 600 yards. There is only one name on the plaque. I think it was a 5 shot group that measured in the neighborhood of 0.8 inches. I see this group being in the same neighborhood as 0.5" @ 300yds. These are benchrest shooters, with high dollar equipment and a load of experience.

I am not saying you cant shoot 0.5" groups at 300yds. But be prepared to really have to work for it.

Sean

Really liking the Creed, and I'm a 308 guy. Did a bit of shooting yesterday, that rifle really needs a FFP scope.. Baby steps I suppose.

I had a FFP scope on my 308 and really liked it. I had an issue with it though, and ended up replacing it with a fixed 16x42 SWFA. So far it's working quite well.

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Originally Posted by Rifleshooter308

.5 at .300 yards is not going to be a barrel issue it will be an ammo and shooter deal. That's a 1/10 MOA and a goal most professional bench rest shooters dream of. But whatever you can get good results with lesser named barrel makes all depending on what your goals are. A casual weekend shooter looking to bang steel at long range will do fine with a Shaw, McGowen, Criterion, Shilen or even factory Savage varmints. If your into competition running hundreds of rounds 2-3 times a week your going to need something better. I've had a few Shaws and they performed well for the price. I'm currently using one for a 6.5-06 build. I've run a few Criterions, McGowens and Shilens and they have all been shooters. Some better than others. I'm currently running a Lothar Walther in .260 which has been fabulous. It's a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA shooter depending on the shooter and they day. I'm not a competition shooter so I have no need to spend $600 on a barrel at this time. The most I'll spend is $400 or so which is what I paid for the LW. I have paid $500 on a Lilja AR10 barrel and it was worth it. That rifle plain shot like a MOFO. Lots of choices and none are really bad. Buy the best you can afford. For me it's more about what's in stock. I hate waiting for stuff! :p

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Ended up buying a Heavy Palma 7 twist Bartlein from Bugholes. It was in stock. I'm going to have the local smith put it together. I hate waiting too!! This is how my 308 shoots at 300 with heavy Bergers. I still get beat in Fclass matches, but at least I know it aint the gun. Something with less recoil will be more enjoyable to shoot I hope.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps233d050b.jpg

jsthntn247

****! Very nice shooting.