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Hello,
I am fairly new to boltguns and Savage. I bought a bunch of PPU 90 gr 243. It chambers very tight in my Savage 11 trophy hunter 243. I can close the bolt, but it takes decent effort. All other ammo has ran fine and the chamber is clean. Love the rifle so far but bummed about the PPU ammo.
Is it safe to shoot this ammo? Is this a known problem with PPU ammo?
Thanks for any insights!
I had a similar issue with mine in .308. I sent it back to Savage and they literally made the bolt handle looser.
I think they messed it up really. and I am looking for answers myself still. It chambers now, but the handle is freaking loose as all get out.
Have you tried a headspace gage to make sure the headspace isn't to tight? I would ink up a cartridge and see where it rubs.If it shows the shoulder to be rubbing upon closing I would reset the headspace using a go gage and a no go gage.
When you say loose are you saying the bolt handle itself is loose or the bolt feels lose cycling it?Quote:
Originally Posted by aka:Cliff
Bill
Hi Bill,
The handle itself is loose. When cocked & locked (round chambered) the handle moves freely about 1/4" up & down.
Yeah, I'm not thrilled about it. And that is the FACTORY fix from Savage.
Would that be a head spacing issue?
Original problem was when it was 100 degrees outside, and I would shoot 5 rounds slowly. (the gun holds 3+1 chambered) -or is it 4+1?
The 5th round would load & fire, but not extract, like the gun was over heated and the case stuck.
I could beat it out with a rod, or spray lube down the barrel & let it cool & beat it out later.
The cases are brass, not steel, and no hot loads. Would do this with factory ammo & reloads.
I haven't shot it in a while now, this being my first Savage, it is disappointing, so I haven't been motivated to go back out.
Do you see any spiral grooves on the brass once you get it removed? Maybe the chamber is a little tight and has some left over tooling marks from the reamer.
I have a Model 11 XP Hunter. Headspace is on the tight side. I have some factory rounds that chamber a little hard. It has not had extraction problems however.
I also have the Model 11 Hog Hunter in .308
No marks on the case.
I'm going to learn how to work on this rifle and adjust headspacing myself.
I haven't observed any marks either.
Is there a general consensus that if the bolt will close without a mallet, then it will be safe to shoot?
Thanks.
Sure is.
If you have trouble chambering a round, that is the one not to shoot.
After shooting, do yours extract?
By chambering, do you mean when you slide the bolt forward, the round doesn't want to go into the chamber? That is not the case, just when I lock the handle down it is tight.
Haven't shot any yet with the tight ammo, so not sure about extracting. Other ammo does fine, in and out.
Thanks.
Sounds like tight chamber/head space to me as well.
Yes.
When it's tight going in, it's tight coming out. :o
or it goes in fine, fires & is hard coming out. - when ambient temps are over 100 degrees. (I live in Arizona) after firing 4 rounds.
I haven't used my 243 over about 85 degrees. NI didn't have stiff extraction even after a few 4 shot groups, separated by 10 or 15 minutes to cool the barrel. I do use a bore mop w a wrap of paper towel and Flitz to polish the chamber. I have done this to all my Savages, new or used. Sometimes there is leftover grease or coating of something at the front of the chamber.
Let me ask it another way. When you rotate the bolt handle does the bolt body rotate with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by aka:Cliff
Bill
Eventially it does.
When the bolt is fully closed & in the ready to fire position, the handle will move up & down slightly, about 1/4".
When I got the gun back from Savage after they "FIXED IT", it did this.
When I purchased the rifle new, it was nice & tight just like any other rifle you find on the shelf.
I explained to the customer service rep what was happening they said send it in, when I got it back, I had no idea of what they did.
When I called them, thy said it was on the paper in the box that was sent back. Yeah, just said - "repaired"
I just found this youtube vid on Savage Headspace.
More of an FYI.
http://youtu.be/9ZWdzNmrnAU
So i am still not really clear on the answer... if i can close the bolt, but it takes a decent amount of force, prob about 15 lbs. Should i be okay to shoot or is the headspace way too tight?
Thanks.
From what I understand, your headspace is tight.
But I'm going to let some of the other more experienced people around here chime in.
Wow - 15 pounds seems like a lot. Mine is about 5 pounds at max. I would think the case is crushing. I recommend getting the headspace checked before shooting any more. I like to err on the safe side. Note- I am not a gunsmith but I do use gauges to check headspace on all my Savages. The Model 11 243 is the only one that was tight on a GO gauge.
Too Tight. I would not shoot it. You have tight chamber and the PPU rounds are the upper limit of spec or out of it. It just had a buddy at work bring me his Axis 223 with a similar issue. The ammo is russian made and does not cycle well. Some times he has to beat his bolt open to extract the fired rounds. It is not good. So, he has to use better ammo or needs to have his chamber head space re-set. IMO- he should use better ammo but he has not made up his mind yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by castells007
On another note, my neighbor is new to reloading and showed me his messed up ammo last night. It jams in his mil spec AR. I measured his case head space and from a factory round he is .004-.006 too long. His kids rifle will cycle it, his will not and jams hard. I reset his dies to bump the shoulder to factory spec and it cycles fine.
What is the risk? The risk with not enough head space is the brass does not have room to expand and pressure spikes. This results in stuck bolts usually. It is just not work messing with IMO. Use good guality ammo, reset the head space, or reload for it.
+1 on Brent's reply. Sounds like you need to tighten the B.A.S. nut on the handle side of the bolt. That should fix the loose handle and also fix the primary extraction issue. Clean the chamber with a good brush to remove all grit, grim and powder residue. Then get a go gage and check headspace. I put 1-layer of scotch tape on the go gage head and then use it as a no-go gage. Give your sizing die slight turn to bump back the shoulder on known piece of tight brass. What brand of brass are you using? Sounds like a tight chamber and over-pressure signs to me.
This is good info all the way around. I do the same thing and so do many gun smiths.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by aka:Cliff
First of all headspace has zero to do with the issue you're describing. Just so we're on the same page....
http://i56.tinypic.com/23kcbow.jpg
When assembled and the bolt assembly screw is tightened the bolt handle and bolt body essentially become one piece and move together in unison. On the right side of the bolt body you'll see a key( tab) sticking out, there is a second one the other side. They interlock into slots in the bolt handle boss.
Now, if the handle rotates a 1/4" but the body doesn't moved there's a problem and needs corrected.
BIll
Thanks for all the great info. I have the headspace issue, another poster has the loose handle issue.
So, I think I am just going to shoot better ammo since it seems that Federal and Winchester do fine in my Savage. But, I am stuck with 300 rounds of PPU 243 that are tight. Is there anything that I can do to the ammo to make it run better. Since we are only talking on the order of thousandth's, is lightly hand sanding the PPU cartridges around the shoulder safe/good idea?
I don't really want to have the headspace adjusted on the gun, but I am considering having it checked just to make sure that it isn't out of spec (unlikely IMO).
Thanks.
I had the same problem with the 243 PPU ammo in two different rifles. A Tikka & a Ruger.
Sanding the brass could result in a head separation and damage to the rifle.
If you had a body ONLY sizing die you could push the shoulder back. Some people will argue that is not safe but I say BS, as long as nothing sets off the primer, like a firing pin, you are good to go.
Like I said early on in this thread,go to a gunsmith and have him check the headspace if you don't want to buy one.
Thanks for the responses.
Is the head separation worry with sanding the cases due to thinning the case walls? And thus weakenening the case?
Thanks.
I believe the case head separation issue possibly caused by sanding the brass is a result of the roughing up or texture put on the brass by the sanding. When the round fires and the brass is expanded by the pressure, it usually expands lenthwise to take up any space allowed. If the brass is not smooth, it cannot expand properly and can actually separate or tear under the pressure. At least, this is how I understand the concept.
Update...
Shot the ppu today. No problems extracting and the bolt wasnt super hard to close. No signs of overpressure either. So i'm gonna assume good to go. Also the 90gr PPU shot tighter groups than the 100 gr winchester.
Thanks for the help. I think i was overthinking it!