8 year old boy wants a "real" hunting rifle

So my son wants a "real" hunting rifle as he calls it. He shoots my .22lr at the range a lot with me and he has a .410 single shot that he does well with when we got squirrel hunting. Now he is a pretty skinny but not a bean pole. Not sure exactly how tall but weighs around 65lbs. I was thinking a .223 rem youth model I already load .223 rem for the AR so I don't have to buy anything to load that round. But what calibers are your kids hunting with. Eventually I am going to let him go with me to Kentucky in a few years for my annual trip, but for now he will be hunting the lease in North Florida with me so the deer are small and the hogs are big! Whatever I get him won't be new so if you got something your young'n has outgrown feel free to send me a message with what it is and a price, but I will do another thread in the want to buy section when I get the caliber nailed down.

As you probably already know, the .223 is surprisingly effective on game in the 120 - 150 lb class, particularly with the heavier all-copper expanding bullets.

If, on the other hand, you want him to have a rifle he can us on game up through elk and still be using when he is 80, consider the 6.5 Grendel in a TC Encore ProHunter. Mine has an 18" barrel and, in a sporter barrel, should work for him. The rifle is really short, much like a AR carbine with 14" barrel because the break-action single shot doesn't need the several inches usually taken by a repeating action.

I got it from Bullberry Barrel Works (www.bullberry.com). They guarantee minute of angle 5-shot groups with factory ammunition. Mine is at least that accurate because I got 0.95 moa with a 10-shot group using handloads lifted directly for the manual.

The Encore is modular enough that you could start him with a short-pull stock and get longer one as he grows. Alternatively, there might be an adjustable stock that would not only grow with him but can be shortened whenever he needs to hunt while wearing winter clothing in the north.

The same could be done with the Savage. The resulting rifle will be longer and a bit heavier but still very functional.

There is an excellent reference for hunting load data and bullet selections for the Grendel in the 6.5 Grendel reloading Handbook.

A 243 is a fantastic riffle to start with if you dont mind buying the dies.

Here the link to the thread on the rifle I just built for my boy in 6.8 SPC.

The 6.8 is the Hammer of Thor on hogs and the round is ideal on whitetail out to 300 yds or so.

JA sticker shock alone got me on the TC. I got around $700 in my 111 .270 win I hunt with. He will be getting something in the Axis price range. Long Range I have no prob buying dies and I did think about the .243 being able to grow with him a little, but I really don't want to bump the recoil up to quick on him and shy him away from shooting. He hated the .410 the first year (he was 5) i let him try it. I need to go find that recoil chart I saw and see where a .410 is in the overall kick factor.

In case anyone else is curious.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

looks like .243 and .410 are similar depending on load.

Nice rifle Rev. I have heard that they are expanding our use of suppressors hear in FL to include deer. I never bothered before because of the hoops to jump through and not being able to hunt large game.

When we take the grandkids (ages 7-10) shooting, after the .22LR gets boring for them we move to the .243 and the .308 w/ muzzle brake. They seem to do better with the .308 - probably because of the brake. They get a kick out of the blast coming back from the brake ports.

The older kids (10-16) go right to the .30 cal stuff and AK rifles. After they shoot the AK47 or 74 I have to pry it from their hands.

I'm thinking as they get better and get a little older we'll move them to things like grenade launcher, flame thrower, 105mm Howitzer...

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

105mm Howitzer...

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Can't go wrong let me know when you need FDC I miss the smell of WP in the morning.

Not a savage, but I have been eyeing this one.

http://www.jgsales.com/zastava-m85-7...w.-p-6939.html

If you're going to reload for it, just get him a youth or woman's 243 and load it down to save some recoil. Then when he needs to up grade to a full size stock, it can just be changed out for a factory take off or something a little nicer.

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Originally Posted by tufrthnails

Can't go wrong let me know when you need FDC I miss the smell of WP in the morning.

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Hey - check your PM's.
I might be able to help you out with your caliber / rifle decision and make a little extra room here in the armory. I've been consolidating calibers and might have what you need...

And no...
It's not a 105 or M40 recoilless or anything like that.

It's gotta be a .308. And if he complains about the recoil just show him this video of a 11-year old girl shooting one for two hours straight.

http://youtu.be/bdyRTyHltag

Read the full review here

Jim's got the right idea.
And if that doesn't help, I have a few pics of my 9yr old granddaughter shooting my beloved '06 at a target 150 yds away.

See?. Now aren't you glad you asked for help here?...

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Originally Posted by tufrthnails

JA sticker shock alone got me on the TC. I got around $700 in my 111 .270 win I hunt with. He will be getting something in the Axis price range. Long Range I have no prob buying dies and I did think about the .243 being able to grow with him a little, but I really don't want to bump the recoil up to quick on him and shy him away from shooting. He hated the .410 the first year (he was 5) i let him try it. I need to go find that recoil chart I saw and see where a .410 is in the overall kick factor.

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I completely understand the sticker shock issue but the very small size and weight would make him most comfortable.

An excellent alternative is a used Savage chambered for the 7.62x39. Once in hand, he can immediately start hunting with it. Should you decide to go with the Grendel, a simple barrel swap gets you there and he will still have the 7.62x39 for any of the SHTF scenarios.

Reloading is your friend in this quest. Doing so will allow you to get him effective hunting ammunition that yields recoil between that of the .223 and the .243 in cartridges that will handle most North American game. I this event, any 6.5 or .264 cartridge will work and this caliber has harvested thousands of tons of moose in Europe. The 6mm cartridges won't do that. The quarter bores come close, and the .270 isn't bad but no short cartridge is available for small rifles. Yes, the 6.8 is there, but it doesn't handle the bigger bullets that .260 rem, a 6.5 Creedmoor, a 6.5x55 or even the small Grendel can.

Thanks so much guys for the input. I am going to get or build him a .243 since they are vastly available and possibly depending on a few things may work out to be a fun build for me and him. Frank man I am severely disappointed I was really hoping you had a spare 105mm out there on your property! Steel Rain!

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Originally Posted by tufrthnails

Thanks so much guys for the input. I am going to get or build him a .243 since they are vastly available and possibly depending on a few things may work out to be a fun build for me and him. Frank man I am severely disappointed I was really hoping you had a spare 105mm out there on your property! Steel Rain!

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It is the wise man that lets is opponent wonder what he's up against...

Or something like that.

How about - Never tip your hand?

Whatever. Always keep 'em guessing.

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Originally Posted by JASmith

... Yes, the 6.8 is there, but it doesn't handle the bigger bullets that .260 rem, a 6.5 Creedmoor, a 6.5x55 or even the small Grendel can.

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If you are limited to AR magazine length you are correct ... but one of the ideas of building a bolt gun is not to be limited to AR magwell maximums. In addition to the bullets in the following photo people have also had good results with Berger 140's.

http://www.lolzilla.net/images/67779323383344487035.jpg

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Originally Posted by RevM

If you are limited to AR magazine length you are correct ... but one of the ideas of building a bolt gun is not to be limited to AR magwell maximums. In addition to the bullets in the following photo people have also had good results with Berger 140's.

http://www.lolzilla.net/images/67779323383344487035.jpg

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Nice collage!

I recall being pleasantly surprised when lighter bullets prompted by the SPC became available to my .270 Winchester.

Nonetheless, that number of bullets is less than one-third of the number of bullets available to the .264 / 6.5 mm cartridge. One can readily obtain bullets ranging from 85 grains to 160 grains for 6.5 / .264 cartridges. Reloading data for this range of bullets is available even for the small Grendel in AR carbines as well as the larger cartridges.

There's always a couple guys who are proponents of a specific caliber or cartridge that start arguing back and forth for the sole purpose of justifying their own decision in threads like this. I think it's safe to say no 8-year old boy would be worried about whether the new rifle they just got handed was a 6.5mm or .277 caliber, or any other caliber for that matter.

308 is what my girls started with. Definitely cost of shooting was a contrbuting factor. But they were a bit older and had gone through hunters safety. Never regretted the choice. May not be as flat a shooter as a 6mm - 7mm but really inside 300 yards it performs at the same ballistics as a 7mm rm and nearly any other cartidge you can name.

Just FYI while I was looking I found some pretty sweet prices on Trophy Hunter Packages here: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...es/savage.html

Don't take me to the flogging table! I got my son a Ruger American Compact .243 win. Primarily because he liked the trigger so much better then the stock axis trigger. But I also didn't need the weaver scope that came with the savage. So basically for a little less I got the rifle with a knock-off accu-trigger but without a scope and rings, both of which I have plenty for his skill level of shooting. The thing that really surprised me is that he noticed that trigger was much better. Now he doesn't know that I actually bought the rifle I made up that I just couldn't afford it yet and he would have to wait until his B-day to see if I could get the money together that we were just going to see what fit and felt good. Side note momma is pissed.....She was not ready for her little baby to be shooting a big boy caliber! Now if I could just get a buck to walk out in front of him this December when he goes to the camp with me.

Thats very cool!!

He should be very happy with that rifle!

One can reduce the recoil even further by going with one of the lighter monometal (GMX, TTSX, etc.) bullets and loading with muzzle velocity so that the bullet is traveling about 2100 fps at 300 yards. Even so, we assume that the bulk of his medium game shots over the next few years will be under 150 yards. These shorter ranges will give plenty of margin for bullet function.

Should he be interested in varmint shooting too, then go for a load that produces similar or a tad less recoil.

As he develops confidence in the rifle, he can graduate to full-power loads in those lighter pills and a tad, later, the 100gr classic hunting bullets. BTW the monometal bullets are likely to be better game harvesters that the 100 gr lead core bullets, with the possible exception of partition bullets.

I picked up some 58gr hornaday Vmax bullets to load after I shoot the 95gr I have left over from last year. I am going to start him at the range on them. I haven't looked at the book yet to see what powder they have data for kinda hoping I have something on the shelf I can use for now. I know I have a can of hogdgon superformance powder. My cousin called me because he got his butt chewed walking in the door with it in his hands. I had sent it home with him to put in his safe since my son loves sniffing out presents. We got a good laugh at her expense. Then got accused of hiding the purchase from my wife, which wasn't the case at all so we laughed about that as well (they know us really well).

Ruger?
Nice rifle. I'm sure he'll do well with it.

And we'll all try not to let him know his father is a traitor.

Ruger...... Hmmph.

Check your PM's.

:cool: PM's checked and thanks.

I'm building my boys (6 & 4) a 6x45 for the simple fact you get the killing power of the larger 6mm billets but felt recoil of the 223 case. Plus I have a ton of 223 brass and quick run through the FL die and you have brass ready to go.

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Originally Posted by shoalwater

I'm building my boys (6 & 4) a 6x45 for the simple fact you get the killing power of the larger 6mm billets but felt recoil of the 223 case. Plus I have a ton of 223 brass and quick run through the FL die and you have brass ready to go.

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This is an interesting thought. I am curious what kind of velocities and energy you are expecting to get out of them. There is a huge difference in the amount of powder behind a .243 win and a .223 rem. My time and Budget at this point doesn't allow for "building" him a rifle, but that is still a very interesting build to me.

I plan to load 87gr Berger match grade VLD Hunting bullets or hornady 85gr IB's, should be around 2750 out of a 20" barrel. Plenty of energy for the short shots they would be taking on game, but still fast enough to let them shoot steel out to 1000 yds as they get good enough.

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Originally Posted by shoalwater

I plan to load 87gr Berger match grade VLD Hunting bullets or hornady 85gr IB's, should be around 2750 out of a 20" barrel. Plenty of energy for the short shots they would be taking on game, but still fast enough to let them shoot steel out to 1000 yds as they get good enough.

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Good choices for the start of their hunting careers!

Start with the one that the rifle likes better unless both produce excellent groups.

There may be value in looking ahead to larger animals too. The VLD bullets, while gaining a lot of interest, do tend to break up on shoulder bone sooner than the bonded bullets. Hence they are fine for lighter deer weighing less than about 125 lb. The 85gr IB will take one comfortably into 200 - 250 lb class deer. As they gain experience, try going with one of the 75 to 90 grain all-copper hunting bullets will make the rifle good for all North American deer.

Go here for a discussion on bullet performance: http://Ideal Bullet Weigh

Those 80gr Barnes TTSX kind of caught my eye as well. I turned a buddy onto the 55gr TSX's last year for his boy to shoot out of his 223 and the results have been great. The all copper bullets are great on game, just to expensive to plink with. I may just have to develop a hunting load with the Barnes and a long range steel banging load with the Bergers.

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Originally Posted by shoalwater

Those 80gr Barnes TTSX kind of caught my eye as well. I turned a buddy onto the 55gr TSX's last year for his boy to shoot out of his 223 and the results have been great. The all copper bullets are great on game, just to expensive to plink with. I may just have to develop a hunting load with the Barnes and a long range steel banging load with the Bergers.

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If you have the range, sight both to the same POI at 300 - 400 yards. They should track close enough that you can use the same wind correction and sight picture from the muzzle out to 200 -300 yards. After that, you'll likely lase the target anyway, so differences in drop and drift way out there wo't matter as much.

You can do the same with two different rifles. See the Paired Rifles discussion for more thoughts on the topic. The principles for paired rifles work equally well for different bullets in the same caliber. Ensuring a common point of impact at 200 - 300 yards generally keeps even fairly different bullets and calibers in the sweet spot for medium game over all normal hunting ranges.

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Originally Posted by RevM

Here the link to the thread on the rifle I just built for my boy in 6.8 SPC.

The 6.8 is the Hammer of Thor on hogs and the round is ideal on whitetail out to 300 yds or so.

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I'm in the same boat with my Nine year old, this year he is shooting my 6.8. Its a great round and its a good fit for him with the adjustable stock.

my son is 14 now and will be shooting a 6.5 creedmore this year. When he killed his first buck at 10 he was shooting 22-250, the buck was a 9 pt that weighed in at 200 lbs. he killed 2 bucks and three does with that 22-250 none ran more than 20 yards. But that 6.5 creedmore has no kick at all no more than that 410