Coyote Gun?? Savage Axis or Ruger American Predator?

I apologize in advance for the long post, and if this has been answered before I also apologize! I am new to bolt action rifles, purchased a Ruger American Rimifire last year and really enjoy shooting it. I have been researching a lot lately, both here and on SH, and I keep coming back to this site because I feel there are a lot of guys on here who realize you don't have to spend $1000's to enjoy shooting "longer ranges", and have success doing so, so I am looking for any advice I can get!

First off I am looking at building this gun for paper punching out to 300 yards as that is currently the longest range I have available close to me, but ultimately this will be a coyote gun. I originally was thinking of using .22-250, but lately have read that a .223 may do the trick. So my first question is what caliber do you all use for coyote hunting, and why?

Secondly, I keep going back and forth between the Savage Axis XP II, and the Ruger American Predator for the rifle. Now I do realize this is Savage Shooters so I expect the responses to be biased, but please explain why you feel as you do. The price of both is basically the same after you factor in the rebate from Savage, then buy a rail for the Axis. I will probably put a PA scope on either one, and Boyds Stocks on either as well, so I am not factoring that into the costs, because as far as upgrades if I plan on doing it to one it will probably happen to the other. The Axis comes with a Weaver scope(but don't know if it is worth a hoot or not) so that could be a pro, but I'm not sure!

I current do not reload, but hope to learn sometime in the next year as funds become available. I am hoping this modest build gets me into the sport and leaves me yearning for more as I see a .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor in my future someday. I would love to have a rifle built by Longrifles Inc. someday but realize it is not feasible now, and I am not ready for that at this moment anyways. I have a lot to learn before then. Any help/advice you can give would be greatly appreciated!!

22-250 is nice, but it can get expensive for ammo. I have 223, but I should have gone .243. Here's why; I effectively only have a coyote and smaller rifle. If I would have bought the .243 I could use it for smaller deer sized (black tails) game and down. I don't know where you live, but in the states (OR, WA, ID, CA) where I live, I have been calling for coyotes and had cats, and a bear come in. I would feel a little better with something with a little more umph to it.

I have the axis combo and it does fine as a yote/truck gun. I look at it this way, if you're going to be yanking stuff off anyway just get the cheapest you can. I would look at pawn shops. If you can find something you like, it might save you a couple hundred.

Which ever you chose just take it and run with it. Enjoy the process of shooting, researching, and learning!

For what you're looking to do and the ranges you're looking to shoot, I think a .223 would be a better choice than the .22-250. Here are my reasons as to why...

1. Cost of ammo (as broke okie noted above)
2. At the range you're looking to shoot the 22-250 gains you nothing
3. With the right ammo (more specifically, bullet), the .223 is a compentent 1,000 cartridge.
4. Less recoil/muzzle jump to contend with making it easier to see your hits through the scope.
5. Did I mention the ammo is cheaper? :p

Don't get me wrong, the 22-250 is a great round and one of my favorites, but for a novice shooter on a budget the .223 is a much better option IMO. Just the ammo cost alone is a big benefit as the more you can afford to shoot the more proficient you will become which is what really counts.

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Originally Posted by J. Baker

For what you're looking to do and the ranges you're looking to shoot, I think a .223 would be a better choice than the .22-250. Here are my reasons as to why...

1. Cost of ammo (as broke okie noted above)
2. At the range you're looking to shoot the 22-250 gains you nothing
3. With the right ammo (more specifically, bullet), the .223 is a compentent 1,000 cartridge.
4. Less recoil/muzzle jump to contend with making it easier to see your hits through the scope.
5. Did I mention the ammo is cheaper? :p

Don't get me wrong, the 22-250 is a great round and one of my favorites, but for a novice shooter on a budget the .223 is a much better option IMO. Just the ammo cost alone is a big benefit as the more you can afford to shoot the more proficient you will become which is what really counts.

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I think the reason why I am trying to convince myself out of a .223 is that I already have a AR chambered in .223/5.56, but I really want to keep it set up as is for CQ type shooting, hence why I want a bolt action rifle! I think the real reason why I "think" I need 22-250 is because I ran across Oneill Ops on youtube, and thats what he uses! I need to realize he is much more advanced than I am and I need to learn to walk before I run. There will always be time to by more guns, right?

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Originally Posted by Broke_Okie_Ty

22-250 is nice, but it can get expensive for ammo. I have 223, but I should have gone .243. Here's why; I effectively only have a coyote and smaller rifle. If I would have bought the .243 I could use it for smaller deer sized (black tails) game and down. I don't know where you live, but in the states (OR, WA, ID, CA) where I live, I have been calling for coyotes and had cats, and a bear come in. I would feel a little better with something with a little more umph to it.

I have the axis combo and it does fine as a yote/truck gun. I look at it this way, if you're going to be yanking stuff off anyway just get the cheapest you can. I would look at pawn shops. If you can find something you like, it might save you a couple hundred.

Which ever you chose just take it and run with it. Enjoy the process of shooting, researching, and learning!

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I really only need to worry about coyotes and maybe a bobcat. There are a few mountain lions here in Iowa, but not many. We can't even hunt deer with rifles, and if I did go out of state on a deer hunt, I would use my .243 that I got from my grandpa. It is an old Belgium made Browning, and I am not affraid to shoot it, just don't want to shoot the barrel out because it looks like they run around $8-900 for a new one from Midway!

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Originally Posted by evangorp

...... the real reason why I "think" I need 22-250 is because I ran across Oneill Ops on youtube, and thats what he uses! I need to realize he is much more advanced than I am and I need to learn to walk before I run.

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^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^ TRUST me, it's expensive to run before you walk!

Ya that might be what he uses, and it is a great round, but if you're already buying .223/556 you might as well have a another gun that runs it. The .223 will do anything you (ethically) ask of it out to 1k.

Get the axis combo and shoot the HELL out of it and upgrade stuff as you go.

My 223 Axis is the bare bones.wm version. I did buy an Axis II but frankly the scope and Accu-trigger don't add much. Ruger I haven't tried but have handled many and just didn't like the feel of em. They were not a hot seller even at close out prices. I wouldn't mind looking at the Mossberg MVP Predator.

This is why I like you guys here, you recommend experience, not going out and buying more gun than one needs. My cousin has said it before, he goes to many matches and shoots, and sees guys there with awesome rifles, but they can't hit the broad side of a barn! But like he says, "At least they look good!"

I just bought a ruger american predator and went with it over the savage because the closest one in price in the savage doesnt have any type of bedding and has a horrible stock.

Ruger
•bedding block
•scope rail
•threaded barrel

Savage
•aftermarket stocks available
•metal dbm available
•no bedding


These are the main differences between the two off the top of my head. My ruger is chambered in 6.5 creedmoor by the way.

I just noticed at the end of your op that you may want to build a 308 based gun, why not just start with that? 308 is just fine for coyotes.

I was under the impression that a 308 would be too much for coyotes, and with the range I have at my disposal only being 300 yards, I assume the 308 would be overkill and I wouldn't be able to utilize its potential. I also thought the barrel life in the others would be better, but I could be wrong.

And I may take the gun on a prairie dog hunt someday as well!

A .308 isn't to much. I have hunted them with a 30-06 before. There is just a bigger hole in them with the 30 cal bullet. I have never hunted P-dogs but I would assume that if you can hit them with a .223 you can hit them with a .308.

Ok, so here's what I am thinking, let me know what you think!

-Savage Axis SR either in 223 or 308, haven't decided yet ($250)
-Primary Arms 4x14x44 ($230)
-EGW Rail ($40)
-Scope RIngs ($50)
-Either $1 trigger job or Rifle Basix Trigger ($85)
-Boyds Pro Varmit Stock ($110)


This brings the total to around $765 for the complete gun, unless I am missing something! Would this be a good start or is it too much to have invested in an entry level gun?

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let me know what you think!

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Ok. Here is what I think. I have two Axis rifles. One is in 22-250 and the other is 223. Both shoot well enough to take coyotes at distances that I seldom if ever shoot at. With 38gr of H380 and a 55gr Sierra Blitz the 22-250 shoots ragged little holes.....with the plastic stock and a bit of trigger "tuning". The 223 is extremely fond of "American Eagle AR-223" factory ammunition and will also take coyotes at distances that I seldom ever shoot. I became a big fan of the Axis platform this year. Both of mine are very accurate as is and other than improving the trigger I see no reason to spend more money "improving" them. If I were going to buy another for the same purposes as you I would go with the 223. 308? What for....just costs a lot more to shoot.

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Originally Posted by wbm

Ok. Here is what I think. I have two Axis rifles. One is in 22-250 and the other is 223. Both shoot well enough to take coyotes at distances that I seldom if ever shoot at. With 38gr of H380 and a 55gr Sierra Blitz the 22-250 shoots ragged little holes.....with the plastic stock and a bit of trigger "tuning". The 223 is extremely fond of "American Eagle AR-223" factory ammunition and will also take coyotes at distances that I seldom ever shoot. I became a big fan of the Axis platform this year. Both of mine are very accurate as is and other than improving the trigger I see no reason to spend more money "improving" them. If I were going to buy another for the same purposes as you I would go with the 223. 308? What for....just costs a lot more to shoot.

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Do you have the standard trigger or the accutrigger? The more I think about it, I'm going to go 223 with this one, I can always buy a 308 next year!

I'll throw another wrench in the cogs and may even get flamed for it.
Due to my experiences I'd stay away from the Edge/Axis series opting for something based off of the Savage 10/110 action, even if my budget only allowed for something used.
Another rifle worthy of consideration would be the Marlin XS7. It is a very nice feature laden starter.


Burris has a heck of a deal right now on the Fullfield 2 4.5-14x42 and offers a $100 rebate on em. http://www.burrisoptics.com/promotions.html I found em in stock online for $227 + $13.62 S&H and once you get the rebate back you'd be looking at dirt cheap for a very good quality optic. (put the cash saved twords a model 10, 11, 12, 14 or 16)

If you're on a tight budget a Trophy Hunter XP can be had ready to go for $519 online with free shipping and a $75 rebate.http://www.savagearms.com/promotions/ Add another $20 or so for an FFL transfer fee and you're still in the $465 range ready to shoot after the rebate. This way you get an accutrigger and a Nikon scope set up and ready to go.
also if you decide to upgrade later The model 11 will probably have more aftermarket support.

On a side note .308 is going to be expensive to shoot with 20 rounds ( $20+ Federal powershock) costing more than what 50 rounds ($39 per 100 Federal bulk) of good .223 costs at my local Wally world.

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Originally Posted by evangorp

This brings the total to around $765 for the complete gun, unless I am missing something! Would this be a good start or is it too much to have invested in an entry level gun?

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That sounds good to me. However, I would wait to buy the stock and trigger.

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Originally Posted by big honkin jeep

I'll throw another wrench in the cogs and may even get flamed for it.
Due to my experiences I'd stay away from the Edge/Axis series opting for something based off of the Savage 10/110 action, even if my budget only allowed for something used.
Another rifle worthy of consideration would be the Marlin XS7. It is a very nice feature laden starter.


Burris has a heck of a deal right now on the Fullfield 2 4.5-14x42 and offers a $100 rebate on em. http://www.burrisoptics.com/promotions.html I found em in stock online for $227 + $13.62 S&H and once you get the rebate back you'd be looking at dirt cheap for a very good quality optic. (put the cash saved twords a model 10, 11, 12, 14 or 16)

If you're on a tight budget a Trophy Hunter XP can be had ready to go for $519 online with free shipping and a $75 rebate.http://www.savagearms.com/promotions/ Add another $20 or so for an FFL transfer fee and you're still in the $465 range ready to shoot after the rebate. This way you get an accutrigger and a Nikon scope set up and ready to go.
also if you decide to upgrade later The model 11 will probably have more aftermarket support.

On a side note .308 is going to be expensive to shoot with 20 rounds ( $20+ Federal powershock) costing more than what 50 rounds ($39 per 100 Federal bulk) of good .223 costs at my local Wally world.

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This is going to be a total noob question, but what are the main differences between the Axis and the Trophy Hunters? Is it all in the action?

Axis v. 10/110 (trophy hunter)

Axis has a fairly cheap and (in my opinion) potentially cruddy detachable box magazine. So does the Trophy Hunter version of the 10/110... but you can eventually change the mag in the trophy hunter to a better metal version if you like. I don't think that is possible with the Axis. The 10/110's have a proven action that has been in production for 50(?) years. There are many more aftermarket stock options for the 10/110's. If you get an older version of 10/110 (top bolt release button as opposed to bottom/trigger guard release) you also have more and better trigger options with the 10/110 (Sharp Shooter Supply Competition Trigger and Rifle Basix Sav-2). Having said that, what you have chosen is less expensive, very do-able and will make for a good rifle. The barrels on both models are the same.

If it were me, and I did not insist on a detachable box magazine, I would opt for the Hog Hunter in .223. It is a 10/110 style with internal magazine that can later be converted to detachable box mag if you like. It also has the top bolt release. It has a 20 inch varmint (heavier ) barrel and Accutrigger. (nice trigger, not everyone likes them. I have had good ones and not-so-good ones). Nice gun. I don't think it qualifies for the Savage rebate, however. It does not include a scope, either.

I don't think you can go wrong no matter what you do if you go Savage. They shoot well, some are more upgradeable than others, but all are good.

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Do you have the standard trigger or the accutrigger?

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Both my Axis rifles have a "improved" standard triggers.

So I thought I knew which direction I wanted to go, then I went to the gun store to look at their Axis guns! While there I told the gun behind the counter what I was looking for and what I was hoping to do with it, and he looked at me dumbfounded! He was knowledgeable as he was active duty infantry, which I thanked him for, by then he confused the crap out of me.

He started showing me Remington 700, Weatherby Vanguards, higher end Savages, and Tikka T3's. Now I feel more lost than I began, does he have a valid point to spend more, or are guys just naive to think that A $350 gun can compete with their $1000+ guns? Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by evangorp

A $350 gun can compete with their $1000+ guns? Thoughts?

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Do you have the money/want to drop a grand plus on a gun? Do you feel a $1000+ rifle is worth it? For me a $1000+ yote gun is insane.

Savage axis, th xp, weatherby vanguard s2, tikka lite, ruger american/predator are all good choices. Of those the tikka and weatherby are going to be a little more costly depending on caliber and specials etc. Personally i would either buy the ruger or th xp.

The ruger is about 350-399 new. The new ruger american predator which i jusy bought because the weatherby wasnt available has a slighter thicker barrel profile. "Power bedding" which is just a bedding block and it has a threaded muzzle and rail. So for about $650-$700 including scope and rings and maybe even a box or two of ammo depending on what caliber you get youve already got a gun ready to rock and roll and can do the yote hunting perfectly while still being competitive with others who have done similar budget builds.

If you know youre going to go above 1k for the entire life of the rifle you might as well spend more and get one of the other actions you can build on later.

If it were me, I would shoulder all of them, try out the trigger if you can, see which one you like. I'm not about to start bashing another brand. I like most all guns that go boom, so I don't have much bias. There are a couple of things to consider.

The Ruger rifles require you to use their rings on all of their rifles. The rings are decent, but you won't have the ability to change the location of your scope, not like you can on an AR-15
I have no personal experience on the Tikka, so I won't comment on them, same goes with they weatherby.
The Remington 700 is an awesome platform. Arguing between the Savage vs. Remington is like arguing between Chevy vs Ford. If you plan on leaving your gun the same, ie not changing your stock, trigger, barrel, either one will serve you fine.

The biggest advantage to me that Savage has over Remington, is that Savage typically offers more variety of land handed rifles. If that weren't an issue, then either one will server you fine. Honestly, you'll be best serveed spending the most money can on the glass. Buy once cry once. Find a rifle that fits your needs.

Ruger rings? What? My ruger american predator has no rings. It comes with a 0 moa rail but rings must be purchased.

I think youre talking about OLD rugers. I believe my buddies ruger is like that. It has one of those fixed dovetail style receivers. The ruger american and american predator are new rifles and use a picatinny base for mounting which can be moved around like any other rifle or like an "ar15"

As for glass. I used to feel the same way. I subscribed to the mentality that whatever the cost of the rifle is the minimum but more often double what you should pay for a scope. With a company like primary arms entering the market i no longer feel that way and would buy their scopes all day long over a nightforce, swfa, leupold, etc. You couldnt pay me to run any of those if you tried.

I know ultimately it comes down to me purchasing what I feel best fits my needs. I have a tendency to over research many things, this purchase being one of them. I guess I just felt as if the gentlemen made me feel "stupid" for wanting to purchase a Savage Axis. Now I don't believe those we his intentions, but that's what I picked up from his body language. I have read and seen enough to believe that the Axis' can be a very accurate budget gun if you take the time to make it so. And maybe there are a lot of others that just don't know or want to believe what the potential of them can be, not any fault of their own, they just don't know. At the end of the day, I know that I don't want to spend more than $800 total on this rifle with scope and all included, so I just need to keep that in mind and find what fits my criteria best.

Keep in mind the guy behind the counter is a salesman. Of course he's gonna try and talk you out of $400 and into $1000. But, it sounds like you know what you should/want to do

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Originally Posted by Broke_Okie_Ty

Keep in mind the guy behind the counter is a salesman. Of course he's gonna try and talk you out of $400 and into $1000. But, it sounds like you know what you should/want to do

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You are correct, I guess I was just looking for some reassurance that I wasn't flushing money down the toilet. I'm sure down the road I will want a higher $$ gun, but then again maybe not, this gun and more like it could possibly do more than I would ever want/expect! After all if you look through the Axis pictures and showed them to someone who wasn't in the know, they would probably be shocked as to how little some of those builds cost. Some look and probably shoot just as nice as many custom builds out there!!

That's what I like about the savages, I never feel like I have been "had" when buying one.

I wouldn't buy a new Marlin any more than a new Remington (see Remlin); I've got a Savage 11 Trophy Hunter in .223 on layaway, comes with a Nikon 3-9x40 BDC scope, $469, UNDER 400 after 75 rebate. Can't beat that for value. Savages are, gun for gun and dollar for dollar, the most accurate firearms out there. Period.

I love savage but just didnt know how good those 11 th xp were so i ended up buying a ruger american predator in 6.5 creedmoor. In a few weeks ill be dropping it in a boyds stock.