another scope question, but more about features

I'm not gonna bother you guys with the normal newbie "which scope in my list should I buy" or "give your opinion" post, but here is my list that I will choose from. It will primarily be used for target shooting at local range (local range goes out to 1000yds) with some hunting. Ammo will mostly be factory 300 win mag, 111 Hunter XP custom build. I do have a few questions for those who own, or has a buddy that owns a scope in my list. How well will either hold up to the recoil of 300 win mag? The Primary Arms 4-14X44 is the only scope on my list that features First Focal Point, but is also the only one that is sub 50mm. In your opinion, is FFP worth giving up 50mm objective? If I've read correctly, FFP is applicable for accurate mil dot range finding and/or hold over, so is there a work around for scopes without FFP? Although my list is sizable, I'm leaning more towards the Vortex, one of the PAs, and the Mueller. Initially, I thought the vortex would be my choice hands down after finding a model at sub $300 ($300 is my max) but came across many negative posts on the crossfire line so I chose to broaden my search. Every unfavorable post did end with vortex CS taking care of the situation so that is a plus. I understand sub $300 wouldn't be ideal, but it is what it is. I don't mind dealing with Sending a scope back for repair or replacement as long as the problem is corrected.

Leatherwood 7-30x50 Uni-Dial
Mueller 4-16×50AO Tactical
Vortex Crossfire II 6-24x50 AO
Banner 6-18X50 Multi-X Ao
Millett 4-16x50 Tactical
Konuspro Plus Series 6-24X50
Simmons Predator/Varmint Series, 6-24x 50mm
Primary Arms 4-14X44 FFP
Primary Arms 4-16X44 Illuminated Mil Dot

What kind of targets? Fixed ranges? Holding off or dialing correction?

Without giving my opinion on not buying any of those scopes...

SFP scopes give up nothing if you take the time to calculate reticle subtension at given magnifications and do the math for the range you are shooting. If reticle ranging and/or holding off the FFP scope might require less thought. You won't find an FFP target scope as precision is lost when the reticle maintains it's subtension and the target appears smaller and smaller as the range is extended. As for the 50mm objective, it's a sales gimmick on a lot of scopes, junk glass is junk glass regardless of objective size.

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What kind of targets

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Paper and steel mostly.

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Fixed ranges

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There is a local range that goes out 1000yds

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Holding off or dialing correction

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I would say both just for the sport of it. I'm sure it would allow me intimate time with my rifle.

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Without giving my opinion on not buying any of those scopes

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I don't see me ever being able to drop $1000+ on a scope.

There is a great work around, It's called a range finder.
At $300 your pretty close to a vortex viper and your spot on for a SWFA fixed power which coincidentally is another great workaround for ffp as all fixed power are essentially ffp in there function.
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I know and understand the mil dot reticle and have it on most my scopes but I never really range with it and rarely use it for holdovers. Fast follow up "hold off" corrections using a reticle for reference can be used regardless of sub-tensions as long as you do not change magnification between the original and the corrected shot.
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For hunting especially: I much prefer a sfp, lets me be more precise at high magnification and still has that same great reticle visibility for the faster low magnification opportunity.

"I don't see me ever being able to drop $1000+ on a scope."
Do yourself a favor and don't ever test drive a high end scope, if you do: You'll feel the need to own one.
I do not know if ignorance is bliss.................but I know it's allot cheeper.

I just bought a Burris Veracity, 2-10x42 with FFP from The Digital Oasis for $501.20 and it is nice and bright. I have not been to the range yet but am looking to shoot out to 500 yards.

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Originally Posted by GeoBoy

I just bought a Burris Veracity, 3-9x42 with FFP from The Digital Oasis for $501.20 and it is nice and bright. I have not been to the range yet but am looking to shoot out to 500 yards.

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What will it be mounted to? Right now I'm leaning towards either the Primary Arms or the Vortex Crossfire II. I haven't pulled the trigger yet because something is telling me to wait until Black Friday.

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Originally Posted by jjohnson636

What will it be mounted to? Right now I'm leaning towards either the Primary Arms or the Vortex Crossfire II. I haven't pulled the trigger yet because something is telling me to wait until Black Friday.

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I am mounting the Veracity on a model 10 Precision in 308. I am waiting for the Near Mfg. base to arrive.

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Originally Posted by D.ID

"I don't see me ever being able to drop $1000+ on a scope."
Do yourself a favor and don't ever test drive a high end scope, if you do: You'll feel the need to own one.
I do not know if ignorance is bliss.................but I know it's allot cheeper.

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I second this.

Yes if you ever shoot behind a mid level or high end scope then there's no going back.
For what you are using it for, like another said, I'd go for a fixed power (10) SWFA or Bushnell. I've heard the SWFA Super Sniper holds up pretty well with magnum caliber and 10 power is enough to shoot steel out to 1000 yards.

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Originally Posted by psharon97

I second this.

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Originally Posted by D.ID

"I don't see me ever being able to drop $1000+ on a scope."
Do yourself a favor and don't ever test drive a high end scope, if you do: You'll feel the need to own one.
I do not know if ignorance is bliss.................but I know it's allot cheeper.

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I'm sure both of you are correct. I often see this response or something similar in regards to sub $500 scope suggestions. I can't speak for others with similar scope budgets, but for me, ignorance is not driving my decision, the fact I can't justify a $1000 - $2500 scope. I don't expect a sub $500 scope to out perform or should be mentioned in the same class as the more expensive Leupold or NF. I won't be entering in any sniper tournaments, doing any long range (200+ yards) hunting, or anything that absolutely requires NF precision, so therefore I don't feel the need to spend that kind cash on the scope. Besides, I'm positive you guys would run circles around me even if I had the NF and you had the Sub $500 scope:p

These days, you can do very well on a $500 budget for glass. There are literally dozens of good solid choices out there. Pick one and have fun.

I get my tail handed to me from a couple of guys shooting scopes that are half the value of mine. Get what you can afford and go shoot it. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

These days, you can do very well on a $500 budget for glass. There are literally dozens of good solid choices out there. Pick one and have fun.

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Originally Posted by loneranger04

I get my tail handed to me from a couple of guys shooting scopes that are half the value of mine. Get what you can afford and go shoot it. Have fun.

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:rockon:

I can deal with the fact that problems may occur with scopes in this price range as long as the vendor or manufacture doesn't BS customers when said problems occur. Do these vendors exist?

For years I lusted after high-end glass. I mean, I wanted it BAD. Obsessed over it. But felt I would never be able or willing to part with the $$$ necessary to secure one. Well, times change, circumstances change, and now I am the proud owner of a couple of ridiculously expensive "optics". (you can't call them scopes anymore if the price is ridiculous). Guess what? When I get to go to the range these days, which is rare, I find myself grabbing a few rifles with the $500 scopes on them more often than not. Why? I'm just more comfortable using them. And, theres the fear of the "nice" ones getting dropped/scratched/damaged in some way. I.E. "omg! I just dropped a $2300 scope on the concrete!" irrational, I know, but I'm having a hard time getting used-to using them. Its sorta like not wanting to drive your new Corvette to Walmart. Not that I would know what that's like lol.
Don't get me wrong, the expensive scopes are great. But there's nothing wrong with the more-realistically priced ones either. And if you get one that you didn't bust the budget on, you'll enjoy it more anyway.

I've been reading up on Falcon optics and they've received some favorable reviews. Here's a video link showing a view through the scope. Call me crazy, but that's not bad.

I can't comment on Falcon optics, because I know nothing about them. I will say that most all scopes in that $500 price range should give you a reasonably clear view at higher powers. What I'd pay attention to, is durability, repeatability and accuracy of adjustments, warranty and ease of use of that warranty, and even potential resale value should you decide to get rid of it. All of these things are more likely to be found in the more-recognized name brands. Also, don't overlook the used-scope market too. Sometimes there are good deals to be found there, too, especially if the scope carries a lifetime transferable warranty.

Some good advice on here. I use a SWFA Mil/Mil 16X for 1000 yds with a 260 and can stay in the 10 and X rings if the winds don't get crazy. Your caliber will challenge many of the cheaper scopes. My suggestion is get the 16X or 20X SWFAand you will probably never look back. If you do you can get 90 cents on the dollar back when you sell it. A fact that is reserved for only the best scopes available. Get the MOA /MOA to keep it simple and add some fine adjustment.

I have more sub $500 scopes than otherwise and many work great for what they are. The bushnell 10x42 $200, several swfa $300, vortex viper $400, nikon pro-staff $200 threw monarchs $450, even my favorite scopes of all time are only in the 7-8 range and I have a couple I actually only paid 5-ish for.
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Started out using a $120 (nikon) scope that to this day still works like a champ, never imagined spending 200........2 bushnell tactical (stiil going) and a 200 nikon (still going) never figured I would need to spend 3............3 swfa 10x (still going) never going to need to spend 4......4 Nikon monarch (still going) never going to need to spent 5.......5 viper hs (still going) never going to need to spend 6.......6 bushnell tactical (6-24x50) several (still going) never going to need to spend.................ah shoot. who am I kidding, I have no idea where enough will be enough. Every-time I test drive the next step up I eventually end up needing it. "Never going to need a $1500"................. till I shot one.
All these scopes are still in service on my rifles. I might even be guilty of getting a new rifle just to test out the next level of scope without taking one apart.
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You can absolutely do it on the cheap........you just have to be more careful about your selection.

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Originally Posted by jjohnson636

:rockon:

I can deal with the fact that problems may occur with scopes in this price range as long as the vendor or manufacture doesn't BS customers when said problems occur. Do these vendors exist?

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I've had very good experience with Burris' customer service. Very quick turnaround- less than three weeks, including shipping to and from, to repair one scope and upgrade the turrets on another. No charge for the repair. Here's the good part- they replaced my objective lens, after I had damaged it by cleaning it improperly. I told them what I had done, and they fixed it anyway. Very good customer service, and very good scopes overall. By the way, don't ever use Dawn dish washing liquid to clean a scope lens. Not even a tiny little bit.

What did dawn do to your lenses? Strip coatings or damage seals?
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I have only had to use customer service twice, bushnell elite 4200 and swfa ss, in both cases I bought a used scope off the internet for a steel of a price.
They did not tack correctly wen I got them, the swfa looked like it had bean used to drive nails or something. In both cases I informed the service center I had bought used and was willing to pay for repairs if they could be repaired. Both suggested I send it in for inspection.
In both cases I had a shiny new scope inside of two weeks and they had a confident repeat customer and advocate ever since.

I had what appeared to be a little bit of some kind of white grease looking stuff around the edges of the lens- some kind of sealant maybe? Anyway, it popped into my head that "Dawn cuts grease!" which it most definitely does. It also removes the pretty purple lens coating that gave my scope such a clear, bright view, and left it just a murky milky colored mess. Stupid, stupid, stupid. It was in early September, with deer season opening here about a month later. I called them and explained, like you offering to pay to get it fixed. They told me to send it in, and they'd take care of it. I also had another Burris that I wanted target turrets installed on, so I sent it in too. Had both back before the end of the month, with only a nominal charge for the turret job. Great customer service. I've been scared to touch any scope objective lens, ever since. I pretty much just blow them off with a very low pressure blast of compressed air now. The coatings on the Fullfield 2's do seem very fragile to me. That's my only gripe about those scopes. Otherwise a great value.

Good to know!
I started using camera lens pens a while back after scratching a binocular lens using my shirt to dry off poring rain. The lens pens are cheap ($10+/-) and compact enough to throw in my pack. Work good if you use them often so there is no major build up.

The single power swfa SS scopes are better than any of the scopes on your list, period. You can catch one on sample list from time to time for about $250. The Vortex Crossfire and Primary Arms are the only ones that will have a comparable warranty, and the glass will be sub par in comparison. Yes, I have compared them with most of the scopes on that list with my own eyes. The only one I haven't seen is the Leatherwood. No, it doesn't have the illuminated reticle, and it is heavy, and it is a smaller than 50 mm objective. But it is optically superior to all of them, and way more durable and the adjustments are extremely accurate and repeatable.

Dave

I bought a Mueller 4.5-14 X 40 APT for my Savage BTVLSS .22 and was really surprised how clear it is. Later on I wanted more magnification so I bought a Konus Pro 6.5-25 X 44, mistake, I should've bought another Mueller. At some point I will buy this one. http://muelleroptics.com/mt852544

I recently bought a Model 16 in 260 Remington and let a friend talk me into a Leupold 4-14 X 40, it was about $550. It's a nice scope but to my eyes it's not any clearer than the Mueller. The Leupold's parallax is fixed at 150 yards which is unhandy for what I bought it for. For ground hogs and punching paper I have a 22-250 FVSS in a Stockade Elk Stalker stock with a Leupold 6.5-20 X 40 with the Varmint Hunter reticle, very nice clear at any magnification scope. The side focus is a nice feature. It was around $800 when I bought it. All the scopes I've mentioned are 30mm tubes.

Currently I'm stuck in limbo trying to find a scope that's mil/mil, at least a 50mm objective and under $500. The closest I can come up with is the PA FFP 4-14x44. The scope doesn't need to be FFP, but mil/mil I'm set on. From my research, many have spoke to the ease of dialing a correction using matching mil/mil reticle and turrets. Most of the scopes in this price range have a mil reticle with moa turret adjustments.

SWFA has a great sale ending today on SS. They have Mil/Mil. Be sure to look closely at specs, they come in MOA as well.

All of these are Mil/Mil:

Highly recommend any/all of them. The only one I do not have is the SWFA 3-15. I would buy one, but decided the PA was good enough at 1/3 the price. The sale price is tempting, though.


http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-3-15x42-Tact...pe-P62238.aspx (3-15x)

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactic...pe-P53712.aspx (fixed 10x)

Midway has a nice weaver 3-10 tactical (midway exclusive) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598...ProductFinding

Primary Arms are nice for the money as well. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...pa4-14xffp.htm

None f these scopes need or would benefit from larger objective lenses. Just not necessary. Higher production cost without practical advantage. All of these are plenty bright beyond legal hunting hours, I assure you.

I've looked and read about the SWFA scopes and they've received nothing but great reviews, but the scopes that fit my requirements are out of my budget. Again, as it stands, the PA 4-14x44 FFP mil/mil is the closest I've been able to find. I'm hoping to find a scope that fit my requirements, if not, I'll have to go with the Primary Arms FFP for now.

I have the PA 4-14x44. It is great. Glass is super clear for the price.
Only thing to be aware of is that as you zoom, the crosshairs get pretty big. Like big enough to cover a target at long range.
This isn't a problem for hitting steel plates at 1000 yards, but if you are going for super precision at 1000 yards, you will have issues.

I also have a PA 4-16x44. The glass in nowhere as clear as the FFP model.

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Originally Posted by savagemann

I have the PA 4-14x44. It is great. Glass is super clear for the price.
Only thing to be aware of is that as you zoom, the crosshairs get pretty big. Like big enough to cover a target at long range.
This isn't a problem for hitting steel plates at 1000 yards, but if you are going for super precision at 1000 yards, you will have issues.

I also have a PA 4-16x44. The glass in nowhere as clear as the FFP model.

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I've pulled the trigger on the PA FFP 4-14x44. I will still consider buying a second scope that sports at least a 50mm objective. The Hawke Sidewinder 30 and the Falcon Menace are in my sights.